Ray Peat On Donald Trump

managing

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ending h1b visas for foreign workers who are brought in to replace highly paid American workers would be a start but I am not holding my breath.
Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas To Pay Low Wages To Immigrants | The Huffington Post
It does get abused sometimes without doubt. But we must be careful (while reasonably reforming the program) to also preserve our dominance in the tech industry. It started here, and its best here. But I guarantee you that it could migrate elsewhere if the talent can't be found. Trump can threaten penalties against offshoring IT jobs if he wants. But its a simple system of supply and demand and planned economies don't work.

What I think is much less debatable/grey is the need for immigrant laborers in certain industries like agriculture. Let's just pretend for a moment that tomorrow morning we wake up and all undocumented people are gone. We're all totally and incredibly screwed. What is needed is a well-regulated guest worker program, not a fence. Its just like marijuana. Make it legal and most of the shady stuff associated with it goes away. Why would somebody come illegally if they can come legally?

The sad irony of tightening up the border is that we are locking them in. Most migrant laborers want to return (to Mexico in the majority of cases) after the job is done. They used to do it all the time. They can't do that nearly as easily as they used to be able to do. So they stay. They have babies. They seek a path to citizenship. Because now they are disconnected from (Mexico) and their children are even more so.

The other sad irony of all this is who does the average "wall supporter" want to keep out? Suresh the IT guy, or Juan the tomato picker? Its Juan. And he isn't here on an H1B.
 

Sucrates

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jaguar43

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It does get abused sometimes without doubt. But we must be careful (while reasonably reforming the program) to also preserve our dominance in the tech industry. It started here, and its best here. But I guarantee you that it could migrate elsewhere if the talent can't be found. Trump can threaten penalties against offshoring IT jobs if he wants. But its a simple system of supply and demand and planned economies don't work.

What I think is much less debatable/grey is the need for immigrant laborers in certain industries like agriculture. Let's just pretend for a moment that tomorrow morning we wake up and all undocumented people are gone. We're all totally and incredibly screwed. What is needed is a well-regulated guest worker program, not a fence. Its just like marijuana. Make it legal and most of the shady stuff associated with it goes away. Why would somebody come illegally if they can come legally?

The sad irony of tightening up the border is that we are locking them in. Most migrant laborers want to return (to Mexico in the majority of cases) after the job is done. They used to do it all the time. They can't do that nearly as easily as they used to be able to do. So they stay. They have babies. They seek a path to citizenship. Because now they are disconnected from (Mexico) and their children are even more so.

The other sad irony of all this is who does the average "wall supporter" want to keep out? Suresh the IT guy, or Juan the tomato picker? Its Juan. And he isn't here on an H1B.

Dominance in the Tech industry ? Those statements assumes that it benefits the people and the U.S economy to have certain U.S corporations maintain dominance in the tech industry. Which I have yet seen any evidence of. These companies are the main outsourcing industries to countries like China. They only enrich people like Bill Gates instead of the economy as a whole.

Immigration whether illegal or legal lower wages, due to high supply of laborers available. It's possible to have immigration without lowering wages but it would entail corporations to take a hit financially. The agriculture industry use these guest worker programs to keep these immigrants in horrible conditions. I keep hearing that Americans won't do those jobs, the issue is that Americans won't do those jobs at the current wages they pay.
 

managing

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Dominance in the Tech industry ? Those statements assumes that it benefits the people and the U.S economy to have certain U.S corporations maintain dominance in the tech industry. Which I have yet seen any evidence of. These companies are the main outsourcing industries to countries like China. They only enrich people like Bill Gates instead of the economy as a whole.

Immigration whether illegal or legal lower wages, due to high supply of laborers available. It's possible to have immigration without lowering wages but it would entail corporations to take a hit financially. The agriculture industry use these guest worker programs to keep these immigrants in horrible conditions. I keep hearing that Americans won't do those jobs, the issue is that Americans won't do those jobs at the current wages they pay.
Tech Industry: Microsoft is huge, but I am talking about the incubator called silicon valley.

There is NO guest worker program. Hasn't been in decades. Most agriculture offers no housing, so I don't know what the horrible conditions are you refer. But if they exist, a sure fire way to improve them is to bring them out into the light of legitimacy. Sure, pay me enough and I'll pick tomatoes. But you won't be able to afford the tomatoes. If there are indeed 11 million undocumented people working in the US, we don't have nearly the labor force to cover the jobs needed. At any wage.
 

zztr

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H-1B is a wage suppression scheme, period. It is used as such in Silicon Valley as well as the rest of the country. There is no "talent" involved. There is an entirely separate "extraordinary talent" visa category. H-1B holders are practically all doing entry level jobs that should be held by recent American college graduates.

There is zero need for guest or illegal immigrant farm labor. Again, it is a wage suppression scheme, plain and simple. Large land holders and farmers pocket the difference. Migrant labor was nowhere near the current scale as recently as 40 years ago and we could afford tomatoes just fine. It was pretty normal for an American kid to do agriculture work over the summers and cover all college costs with the earnings.

What is especially insidious about illegal and/or migrant labor is that these people are massive tax burdens. They use medical services as well as public assistance at extremely high rates. What's really happening is farmers and construction contractors and so forth are stealing from taxpayers. The wages they pay aren't enough to afford the cost of living and middle class taxpayers are getting soaked on the difference. The difference is going to the employers' profit margins.
 

Queequeg

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I just had my carpet replaced and the three guys who home depot sent couldn't speak english and were most likely illegals. They don't just take jobs American dont want. Construction used to be a very solid career choice for Americans but now it is mostly illegals doing the work.

Earlier in the last century organized labor was a big opponent of increased immigration due to the obvious harm to workers. Now they are all bought off and controlled and could care less about their workers. Same for the self-appointed African American leaders who also are screaming for more immigration and legalization. Its amazing how Democrats always seem to vote against their own interest;0
 

Queequeg

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11 pages of replies.
 

managing

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H-1B is a wage suppression scheme, period. It is used as such in Silicon Valley as well as the rest of the country. There is no "talent" involved. There is an entirely separate "extraordinary talent" visa category. H-1B holders are practically all doing entry level jobs that should be held by recent American college graduates.

There is zero need for guest or illegal immigrant farm labor. Again, it is a wage suppression scheme, plain and simple. Large land holders and farmers pocket the difference. Migrant labor was nowhere near the current scale as recently as 40 years ago and we could afford tomatoes just fine. It was pretty normal for an American kid to do agriculture work over the summers and cover all college costs with the earnings.

What is especially insidious about illegal and/or migrant labor is that these people are massive tax burdens. They use medical services as well as public assistance at extremely high rates. What's really happening is farmers and construction contractors and so forth are stealing from taxpayers. The wages they pay aren't enough to afford the cost of living and middle class taxpayers are getting soaked on the difference. The difference is going to the employers' profit margins.
Wow. Just because you want to think it won't make it so. Why is it so difficult to accept that America is getting less white?

Start with taxes. They pay em. All the ones you pay. And then they don't collect social security benefits. They are subsidizing your retirement.

They DON'T qualify for welfare, medicaid or most other kinds of public assistance. Furthermore, they are here to work. If they are lazy and don't want to work, life is better in Mexico for them.

Jobs. You want those jobs? Go get em. In my area, construction work pays 17 to 23 per hour depending on specialty. Unskilled farm work pays 15-20 per hour. Go get em.

H1B visas. Search Monster.com for H1B. Network Engineer, Sr. Java Developer, Physical Therapist, Sr. SQL DB Developer, and so on. Yes, talent. Yes, jobs our colleges are not turning out enough qualified candidates for. Again, some have abused it to bring in receptionists and customer svc reps. Its a minority. Reform and enforcement are justified.

Finally, large land holders and farmers are entitled to profit. That's capitalism.
 

Queequeg

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Wow. Just because you want to think it won't make it so. Why is it so difficult to accept that America is getting less white?

Start with taxes. They pay em. All the ones you pay. And then they don't collect social security benefits. They are subsidizing your retirement.

They DON'T qualify for welfare, medicaid or most other kinds of public assistance. Furthermore, they are here to work. If they are lazy and don't want to work, life is better in Mexico for them.

Jobs. You want those jobs? Go get em. In my area, construction work pays 17 to 23 per hour depending on specialty. Unskilled farm work pays 15-20 per hour. Go get em.

H1B visas. Search Monster.com for H1B. Network Engineer, Sr. Java Developer, Physical Therapist, Sr. SQL DB Developer, and so on. Yes, talent. Yes, jobs our colleges are not turning out enough qualified candidates for. Again, some have abused it to bring in receptionists and customer svc reps. Its a minority. Reform and enforcement are justified.

Finally, large land holders and farmers are entitled to profit. That's capitalism.
It never ceases to amaze me how the power of the left wing MSM can so thoroughly hoodwink and misinform their viewers. Every single statement you made above is demonstrably false and like you said, just because you think it, doesn't make it true. The MSM and TPTB all support increased immigration and will slant their reports and studies to make you think that illegal immigration is a net positive. All of these studies use sleight of hand and manipulated statistics to do so. The truth is very different and often difficult to see after a lifetime of liberal propaganda.

Illegal aliens do not pay the same taxes we pay. Most certainly do not pay any income taxes and most know that by increasing the exemptions on their W-4, they can dramatically reduce the amount of payroll taxes withheld. Many are paid under the table and don't pay any taxes at all. I wont even get into the large number of illegals who apply for the earned income tax credit with stolen SS numbers. So no they don't pay the same taxes we do. They also send out most of their earnings to family members at home and thus further hurt the US economy because this money is not spent here.

In many States including mine. illegal aliens are entitled to numerous benefits including welfare and food stamps. They are also entitled to free healthcare at any hospital and free schooling for their children. Every illegal alien who commits a crime or is in jail here is by definition a net burden on society as they should not be here in the first place.

H1B Visas are a scam. You just don't know much about it. They were supposed to provide visas only for jobs US employers couldn't find any Americans to do. Through an insidious loophole, this requirement however is phased out for jobs over $60,000. Companies are now routinely using H1B Visas to replace current American workers while having the gall to force them to train their replacements before they are shown the door. 60 minutes just did a report on this on Sunday and its heartbreaking how many middle class tech workers are losing their jobs because of this law.

If you think that a dramatic increase in the supply of labor has no effect on prevailing wages than you, like other left wing "economists," don't understand the most basic concepts of economics, the laws of supply and demand. Construction work used to pay much more than $17 -$23/hr which is barely above the left wing $15/hr minimum wage. A carpenter or mason was once a solid middle class job. Not anymore.

As for your surprising "support" of large land holders who benefit from these market distortions, that is not capitalism; It is crony capitalism. Its amazing how facile and hypocritical the left can be with their ideology when it serves them. Also bringing in race is a cheap shot that has nothing to do with the issue. Why are we being racist when we care about our fellow citizens who are being put out of work. Many of whom are on the lower rungs of the economic ladder and are minorities themselves. Finally why don't you speak out against the "racist" countries in Central America and against Mexico who all have much more stringent immigration policies than we do? Why do you think every other country can secure their borders but us? Could it be you who is the racist one? What do you have against the American worker?
 
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zztr

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Calling these people like @managing left wing really distorts things, because they are not left wing in any historical sense of the label. The correct label is "Third Worldist." On any particular question the priority is always what benefits the third world at the expense of western nations.

Labor relations and capital? Women's safety and liberty? Immigration? Environment? Foreign policy? The correct position on these matters is always whatever benefits people in the third world at the expense of westerners. This is why you get the head scratching phenomenon of people who will in one breath talk about women's lib and in the next defend sharia. Or talk about greedy capitalists in one breath and then in the next support union busting and ecology wrecking employers of illegal aliens. It has nothing to do with the old thinkers of the left and is entirely about tearing the down the west for the benefit of third world populations. It is a new ideology as far as I can tell.
 
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Who cares what ray peat thinks about donald trump...

People who can't think for themselves.

Gotta outsource that hard work somewhere...

But Peat is busy painting and answering emails.

Man if only there were only a slew of educated talking heads who could tell me how and what to feel about current issues

Cw-zdyYXAAAY04S.jpg


Thanks guys.

But can you throw a black and a gay in there? And maybe a tranny? I like my brainwashing to be equal oppoturnity

tv-talking-heads.jpg


Great! Actually could you mix the gay and the black into one. I don't wanna have to flip channels..

Don%20Lemon.JPG


Perfect!

Golly gee now if only there was some late night talk show host would could repeat the propaganda of the day in an entertaining and creative way

raw


Wow....that's better than the talking heads.

Screw having just one.... I want ten! (But make sure there's a black one)

late-night-hosts-jon-stewart-conan-obrien-stephen-colbert-trevor-noah-sam-jones-623x420.jpg


Thanks guys.

obamaohyeah.gif
 

thomas00

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If you think that a dramatic increase in the supply of labor has no effect on prevailing wages than you, like other left wing "economists," don't understand the most basic concepts of economics, the laws of supply and demand. Construction work used to pay much more than $17 -$23/hr which is barely above the left wing $15/hr minimum wage. A carpenter or mason was once a solid middle class job. Not anymore.

The 'basic concepts of economics' you refer to there are not an irrefutable law that has to be understood and accepted. They are simply a description of consequences which can occur inside an exploitative system/abusive relationship.

There's plenty of money around to meet an increase in labour demand. The ownership and management class just want most it for themselves.
 

managing

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Calling these people like @managing left wing really distorts things, because they are not left wing in any historical sense of the label. The correct label is "Third Worldist." On any particular question the priority is always what benefits the third world at the expense of western nations.

Labor relations and capital? Women's safety and liberty? Immigration? Environment? Foreign policy? The correct position on these matters is always whatever benefits people in the third world at the expense of westerners. This is why you get the head scratching phenomenon of people who will in one breath talk about women's lib and in the next defend sharia. Or talk about greedy capitalists in one breath and then in the next support union busting and ecology wrecking employers of illegal aliens. It has nothing to do with the old thinkers of the left and is entirely about tearing the down the west for the benefit of third world populations. It is a new ideology as far as I can tell.
Thanks for pointing out that labels like left/right wing are dysfunctional and stupid . . . oh, wait, you just wanted to give me a different label so you could put words in my mouth. For the record, you said these things, not me. Speak for yourself.
 

managing

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It never ceases to amaze me how the power of the left wing MSM can so thoroughly hoodwink and misinform their viewers. Every single statement you made above is demonstrably false and like you said, just because you think it, doesn't make it true. The MSM and TPTB all support increased immigration and will slant their reports and studies to make you think that illegal immigration is a net positive. All of these studies use sleight of hand and manipulated statistics to do so. The truth is very different and often difficult to see after a lifetime of liberal propaganda.

Illegal aliens do not pay the same taxes we pay. Most certainly do not pay any income taxes and most know that by increasing the exemptions on their W-4, they can dramatically reduce the amount of payroll taxes withheld. Many are paid under the table and don't pay any taxes at all. I wont even get into the large number of illegals who apply for the earned income tax credit with stolen SS numbers. So no they don't pay the same taxes we do. They also send out most of their earnings to family members at home and thus further hurt the US economy because this money is not spent here.

In many States including mine. illegal aliens are entitled to numerous benefits including welfare and food stamps. They are also entitled to free healthcare at any hospital and free schooling for their children. Every illegal alien who commits a crime or is in jail here is by definition a net burden on society as they should not be here in the first place.

H1B Visas are a scam. You just don't know much about it. They were supposed to provide visas only for jobs US employers couldn't find any Americans to do. Through an insidious loophole, this requirement however is phased out for jobs over $60,000. Companies are now routinely using H1B Visas to replace current American workers while having the gall to force them to train their replacements before they are shown the door. 60 minutes just did a report on this on Sunday and its heartbreaking how many middle class tech workers are losing their jobs because of this law.

If you think that a dramatic increase in the supply of labor has no effect on prevailing wages than you, like other left wing "economists," don't understand the most basic concepts of economics, the laws of supply and demand. Construction work used to pay much more than $17 -$23/hr which is barely above the left wing $15/hr minimum wage. A carpenter or mason was once a solid middle class job. Not anymore.

As for your surprising "support" of large land holders who benefit from these market distortions, that is not capitalism; It is crony capitalism. Its amazing how facile and hypocritical the left can be with their ideology when it serves them. Also bringing in race is a cheap shot that has nothing to do with the issue. Why are we being racist when we care about our fellow citizens who are being put out of work. Many of whom are on the lower rungs of the economic ladder and are minorities themselves. Finally why don't you speak out against the "racist" countries in Central America and against Mexico who all have much more stringent immigration policies than we do? Why do you think every other country can secure their borders but us? Could it be you who is the racist one? What do you have against the American worker?
Wow. You kind of went off the deep end in that last paragraph. I can appreciate disagreement, but I can't really tolerate it when you put words in my mouth, nor when you start name calling. Nobody called anybody racist, until you did. Let's see if we can back off the ledge and calm down.

One at a time. First question. Do you know any of these illegal aliens you make claims about? I mean, how do you know they aren't paying taxes? I'm not going to bother looking up the numbers because you are apparently convinced the MSM are all part of a vast conspiracy to lie about these things. But do you know any? Do you know they aren't paying taxes? Because my experience is that you are dead wrong there.

Can you provide references on your claim that your state (or others) provide welfare and foodstamps to undocumented people?

H1B. Like I said, H1B needs reform clearly. H1B isn't a scam. If you want to look at what happens to an economy that is closed entirely to immigration of all kinds, research the stagflation (followed by general stagnation) that has affected the Japanese. They are only now climbing out of it and it just so happens to coincide with . . . grudging acceptance of guest workers. This time I'll give you a link if for no other reason than I have no idea whether the Japan Times is part of the "conspiracy". foreign workers - The Japan Times

Construction workers: FWIW, I was talking about unskilled labor. Trades make much more than that. I only know one carpenter well, but his kids go to school with mine and they are quite middle class. I have no idea how much he makes hourly, but he has a small "ranch" outside of town with a couple of horses.

As for "large landholders" who are these evil people with political connections that allow them to cheat, lie and steal (that is what I take you to mean by "crony capitalism", correct me if I'm wrong)? If large landholders are the (or part of the) problem, what would you propose doing to them and with their property?
 

managing

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The ownership and management class just want most it for themselves.
Care to expand on this?

I agree in principle. Although I would qualify this to be primarily finance, insurance, natural resources, etc, ie, "crony capitalism". That is probably not a comprehensive list, but I think there are literally millions of small and mid-size businesses who's owners and managers are not part of the problem. Not saying there aren't abuses (and need for proper regulation) in these gray areas, but MOST business owners are not part of the 1% and not even all of the one percent are greedy and abusive. I reiterate what I've said before: business owners are entitled to profits. Socialism is not the answer.
 

Queequeg

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Wow. You kind of went off the deep end in that last paragraph. I can appreciate disagreement, but I can't really tolerate it when you put words in my mouth, nor when you start name calling. Nobody called anybody racist, until you did. Let's see if we can back off the ledge and calm down.

One at a time. First question. Do you know any of these illegal aliens you make claims about? I mean, how do you know they aren't paying taxes? I'm not going to bother looking up the numbers because you are apparently convinced the MSM are all part of a vast conspiracy to lie about these things. But do you know any? Do you know they aren't paying taxes? Because my experience is that you are dead wrong there.

Can you provide references on your claim that your state (or others) provide welfare and foodstamps to undocumented people?

H1B. Like I said, H1B needs reform clearly. H1B isn't a scam. If you want to look at what happens to an economy that is closed entirely to immigration of all kinds, research the stagflation (followed by general stagnation) that has affected the Japanese. They are only now climbing out of it and it just so happens to coincide with . . . grudging acceptance of guest workers. This time I'll give you a link if for no other reason than I have no idea whether the Japan Times is part of the "conspiracy". foreign workers - The Japan Times

Construction workers: FWIW, I was talking about unskilled labor. Trades make much more than that. I only know one carpenter well, but his kids go to school with mine and they are quite middle class. I have no idea how much he makes hourly, but he has a small "ranch" outside of town with a couple of horses.

As for "large landholders" who are these evil people with political connections that allow them to cheat, lie and steal (that is what I take you to mean by "crony capitalism", correct me if I'm wrong)? If large landholders are the (or part of the) problem, what would you propose doing to them and with their property?
Maybe it's you who needs to step back from the ledge and calm down as you are the one calling people names and putting words in their mouths. “Why is it so difficult to accept that America is getting less white?” The obvious implication is that we must not like non-white people i.e. are racist because we disagree with you on illegal immigration. Calling you out and saying that maybe you are being “racist” against Americans isn’t name calling; it’s called satire.

It seems that you are basing many of your assumptions on personal experience. Since you are most likely not an illegal immigrant nor have hired any, I seriously doubt that your experience is a reliable source for what is going on. As an example, that link to Japan’s guest worker program is a very different subject than the massive loopholes employers are using to replace American workers with low wage immigrants. You also mentioned previously that we don't even have a guest worker program. We do. Its called the H2A and H2B Temporary worker program.

If you really want to understand this better than you have to be able to distinguish between propaganda and the truth. Thinking that masses of illiterate peasants moving into sanctuary cities will be a net positive to our country is propaganda. These people are not going to work on any farms in San Francisco or NYC. If they find a job at all they will only drive down salaries for scarce low skill jobs that poorer Americans would be happy to do at a fair pay scale.

Here is a link you asked for. Hopefully it will be a start to help you look past the propaganda: Poor illegal immigrants get food stamps denied to poor U.S. citizens, $2 billion worth
 
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Queequeg

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The 'basic concepts of economics' you refer to there are not an irrefutable law that has to be understood and accepted. They are simply a description of consequences which can occur inside an exploitative system/abusive relationship.

There's plenty of money around to meet an increase in labour demand. The ownership and management class just want most it for themselves.
Gravity is a theory as well. Good luck with not accepting it as with basic economics.
 

managing

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Maybe you need to step back from the ledge and calm down as you are the one calling people names and putting words in their mouths. “Why is it so difficult to accept that America is getting less white?” In other words, our disagreement about illegal immigration must be because we don’t like non-white people. Calling you out and saying that maybe you were the “racist” one against America isn’t name calling; it’s called satire.

It seems that you are basing many of your assumptions on personal experience. Since you are most likely not an illegal immigrant nor have hired any, I seriously doubt that your experience is a reliable source for what is going on. As an example, that link to Japan’s guest worker program is a very different subject than the massive loopholes employers are using to replace American workers with low wage immigrants. You also mentioned previously that we don't even have a guest worker program. We do. Its called the H2A and H2B Temporary worker program.

If you really want to understand this better than you have to be able to distinguish between propaganda and the truth. Thinking that masses of illiterate peasants moving into sanctuary cities will be a net positive to our country is propaganda. These people are not going to work on any farms in San Francisco or NYC. If they find a job at all they will only drive down salaries for scarce low skill jobs that poorer Americans would be happy to do at a fair pay scale.

Here is a link you asked for. Hopefully it will be a start to help you look past the propaganda: Poor illegal immigrants get food stamps denied to poor U.S. citizens, $2 billion worth
Its not a leap to think that people railing against illegal immigrants, as opposed to other types of immigration, are opposed at least in part simply to having Mexicans and other Latin Americans becoming a large population (trending toward majority). FWIW, you were not the person doing that to whom I was responding. In general, your positions have been principled and not xenophobic.

I am citing personal experience because a) I have considerable personal experience with Mexicans and other latin americans in the US and Mexicans in Mexico and b) you repudiate many of what I would consider highly credible sources by calling them "MSM". I didn't think it was worth citing sources you would dismiss out of hand.

Still, I wonder, if you know any Mexicans. On a personal basis? Know what they do for a living and have an idea how much they make? Know if they own homes or are on welfare? I also wonder why you said in your state they are on Welfare and collect food stamps. But when I ask for support you only offer a dodgy source that speculates, while offering no evidence, a way in which Mexicans might, or might not, illegally obtain food stamps, but nothing about welfare, nor anything about any specific state enabling its residents to illegally obtain federal benefits that are categorically denied them.

Your speculations about sanctuary cities are an amusing distraction. But, needless to say, unless there are a couple million native americans, well, native born anyway, picking vegetables in California's central valley, its not very likely that the Latin Americans are all clustered in sanctuary cities.

And finally, I wonder what propaganda is it that has me so hoodwinked? I've been called a left-winger and a third worldist in an attempt to discredit me. Do you have a preferred label for me?
 
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