Ray Peat On DHAA In Meat: No Need For Ascorbic Acid Supp?

yerrag

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In one recent interview on One Radio Network during 2019, of which I don't recall the date, Ray Peat seemed to be saying that, when asked about the need for ascorbic acid supplementation, that meat already has DHAA, dehydroascorbic acid. I get the impression by his answer that ascorbic acid supplementation is not needed if we eat meat in normal quantity already.

Am I wrong in this interpretation? I hope so.

I thought about the sailors in the past who had contracted scurvy and wonder if they brought and ate meat in their voyages. Most likely the meat would be preserved meat like ham or jerky. Did the sailors develop scurvy because they were not eating freshly cooked meat; and preserved meat didn't provide DHAA to them? Or was the meat consumed, in whatever form, too little to provide enough DHAA?

If Ray Peat says so, it most likely should be believed. If he were right, would it be reasonable to think that in a long voyage, DHAA-rich food is not eaten in enough quantities that scurvy would develop? And if enough DHAA-rich food were available, scurvy would not develop?

That scurvy affected only sailors on long journeys then would make me think that people living in land don't develop scurvy, because the normal fare eaten by people not facing limited access to food already provides enough DHAA and/or ascorbic acid. Is it correct to make the conclusion then that as long as we eat enough meat, we would have enough vitamin C in our diet at least not to incur the condition of scurvy?

Note that I'm not talking about optimal vitamin C intake. I'm only talking the minimum amount needed to prevent scurvy. I suppose eating a lot of meat to get optimal vitamin C intake is not a good idea, but I could be wrong.
 

Bad Linhat

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In one recent interview on One Radio Network during 2019, of which I don't recall the date, Ray Peat seemed to be saying that, when asked about the need for ascorbic acid supplementation, that meat already has DHAA, dehydroascorbic acid. I get the impression by his answer that ascorbic acid supplementation is not needed if we eat meat in normal quantity already.

Am I wrong in this interpretation? I hope so.

I thought about the sailors in the past who had contracted scurvy and wonder if they brought and ate meat in their voyages. Most likely the meat would be preserved meat like ham or jerky. Did the sailors develop scurvy because they were not eating freshly cooked meat; and preserved meat didn't provide DHAA to them? Or was the meat consumed, in whatever form, too little to provide enough DHAA?

If Ray Peat says so, it most likely should be believed. If he were right, would it be reasonable to think that in a long voyage, DHAA-rich food is not eaten in enough quantities that scurvy would develop? And if enough DHAA-rich food were available, scurvy would not develop?

That scurvy affected only sailors on long journeys then would make me think that people living in land don't develop scurvy, because the normal fare eaten by people not facing limited access to food already provides enough DHAA and/or ascorbic acid. Is it correct to make the conclusion then that as long as we eat enough meat, we would have enough vitamin C in our diet at least not to incur the condition of scurvy?

Note that I'm not talking about optimal vitamin C intake. I'm only talking the minimum amount needed to prevent scurvy. I suppose eating a lot of meat to get optimal vitamin C intake is not a good idea, but I could be wrong.

Those are the same questions I have.
This is the explaination that Peat gave about commercial C supplements and their problems.
In this post Peat talk about getting the DHAA form from food:

When I hadn’t been taking vitamin C supplements for a few months, I analyzed my uring and found that it contained about 1000 milligrams per day. I found that much of the vitamin C in food, for example in meat, is in the form of dehydroascorbate, which isn’t visible to the standard analytic methods that depend on the reducing power of the vitamin. As muscle metabolizes, some of the dehydroascorbate that it contains is reduced to ascorbic acid, and some of that is lost in the urine. When I stopped eating grains, beans, and nuts, the amount of vitamin C in my urine increased considerably. Properly analyzed, a good human daily diet contains 3000 to 4000 mg of vitamin C

I follow Ortomolocular Medicine since 2011, I'm supplementing 20g of ascorbic acid each day with great benefits (from cancelled nose bleeding, to greatly reduced grass allergy).
I don't have any visible problem supplementing ascorbic acid.

Onestly I'm confused about this differences of view between Peat and Pauling
 

Blossom

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Those are the same questions I have.
This is the explaination that Peat gave about commercial C supplements and their problems.
In this post Peat talk about getting the DHAA form from food:



I follow Ortomolocular Medicine since 2011, I'm supplementing 20g of ascorbic acid each day with great benefits (from cancelled nose bleeding, to greatly reduced grass allergy).
I don't have any visible problem supplementing ascorbic acid.

Onestly I'm confused about this differences of view between Peat and Pauling
Thank you for the quote. My experience over the last 7 months is the same. I no longer eat grains (or nuts and beans) have stopped taking supplemental vitamin C and my chronic bleeding gums resolved. Stopping grains has been a huge success for me and I can’t believe I didn’t do it sooner.
 
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Thank you for the quote. My experience over the last 7 months is the same. I no longer eat grains (or nuts and beans) have stopped taking supplemental vitamin C and my chronic bleeding gums resolved. Stopping grains has been a huge success for me and I can’t believe I didn’t do it sooner.
Was it your no longer eating grains despite not taking vitamin C that resolved your bleeding gums? Or was it both? How did not taking vitamin C help? It's counterintuitive. And glad you had it resolved!
 

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Was it your no longer eating grains despite not taking vitamin C that resolved your bleeding gums? Or was it both? How did not taking vitamin C help? It's counterintuitive. And glad you had it resolved!
I think the vitamin C was worsening my oxalate issues and that was the real reason for my bleeding gums (not sub clinical scurvy). I stopped grains about the same time that I dropped vitamin C unfortunately so I can’t say for sure what impact that had (if any) on my bleeding gums. My stomach is generally not bloated at all anymore although I didn’t realize how much grains were causing this issue until I had been off them for a while. Perhaps less endotoxin = lower vitamin C needed?
 
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I think the vitamin C was worsening my oxalate issues and that was the real reason for my bleeding gums (not sub clinical scurvy). I stopped grains about the same time that I dropped vitamin C unfortunately so I can’t say for sure what impact that had (if any) on my bleeding gums. My stomach is generally not bloated at all anymore although I didn’t realize how much grains were causing this issue until I had been off them for a while. Perhaps less endotoxin = lower vitamin C needed?
That's interesting. I had the impression oxalate issues manifest themselves in the kidneys, but their expression in bleeding gums I didn't expect. Not that I'm questioning you at all. Just curious how it would show up that way. Something to be aware of.
 
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yerrag

yerrag

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Those are the same questions I have.
This is the explaination that Peat gave about commercial C supplements and their problems.
In this post Peat talk about getting the DHAA form from food:



I follow Ortomolocular Medicine since 2011, I'm supplementing 20g of ascorbic acid each day with great benefits (from cancelled nose bleeding, to greatly reduced grass allergy).
I don't have any visible problem supplementing ascorbic acid.

Onestly I'm confused about this differences of view between Peat and Pauling
Thanks for the links and Ray Peat's answer on a good human daily diet containing 3 to 4g of vitamin C. I suppose the sailors who had scurvy didn't have a good human daily diet. They didn't really need fruits if they were eating enough meat.
 

Bad Linhat

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Thanks for the links and Ray Peat's answer on a good human daily diet containing 3 to 4g of vitamin C. I suppose the sailors who had scurvy didn't have a good human daily diet. They didn't really need fruits if they were eating enough meat.
Your welcome !
Pauling recommend 6 to 18 g of vitamin C daily not only to avoid scurvy, but for optimal health.
Very strange this different point of views.
Does DHAA in meat increment iron absorption ?
 

Bad Linhat

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I think the vitamin C was worsening my oxalate issues and that was the real reason for my bleeding gums (not sub clinical scurvy). I stopped grains about the same time that I dropped vitamin C unfortunately so I can’t say for sure what impact that had (if any) on my bleeding gums. My stomach is generally not bloated at all anymore although I didn’t realize how much grains were causing this issue until I had been off them for a while. Perhaps less endotoxin = lower vitamin C needed?
For oxalate problems Pauling recommend changing form of vitamin c to sodium ascorbate, you can check oxalate levels from urine test.
I removed grains from my diet long ago, but my nose bleeding remains until I started with large vitamin c doses
 

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For oxalate problems Pauling recommend changing form of vitamin c to sodium ascorbate, you can check oxalate levels from urine test.
I removed grains from my diet long ago, but my nose bleeding remains until I started with large vitamin c doses
I definitely had good results from mega dosing vitamin C 25 years ago. About 20 years ago I had a body fluid exposure at work that required 50 days straight of levaquin antibiotic and after that everything changed for me. I now believe my oxalate metabolizing flora was completely wiped out and continued use of antibiotics multiple times per year until this last year kept me from recovering any whatsoever. I’m still not sure if I will be able to fix this issue and I may need to stay on a low oxalate diet permanently. I will consider the sodium form though if I ever need vitamin C. Thank you so much for the information!
 

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That's interesting. I had the impression oxalate issues manifest themselves in the kidneys, but their expression in bleeding gums I didn't expect. Not that I'm questioning you at all. Just curious how it would show up that way. Something to be aware of.
I had issues in various mucous membranes that cleared up immediately. There’s still a lot that is unknown about how oxalate can effect different people but I think it’s a newish problem since widespread antibiotic use is so recent.
 

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I had issues in various mucous membranes that cleared up immediately. There’s still a lot that is unknown about how oxalate can effect different people but I think it’s a newish problem since widespread antibiotic use is so recent.
Since I've dramatically decreased my oxalate consumption, I've noticed far less cerebral fluid coming out my nose. My gums, and inner lips are irritated, and I go for spurts throughout the day when I've salivating a lot. My carotid arteries seem to be aching also. My guess is I have a high concentration of oxalate in those areas and the inflammation is from dumping them. I further guess that EDS, and lack of blood movement, has concentrated the ox above the shoulders.

I'd love to eat a whole lot more meat, but 1. I've gone from not digesting it, to digesting it poorly. If I only eat meat, it's as if I've eaten nothing. 2. I worry about the lack of vitamin C too. How are all these carnivores not getting scurvy?
 

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Since I've dramatically decreased my oxalate consumption, I've noticed far less cerebral fluid coming out my nose. My gums, and inner lips are irritated, and I go for spurts throughout the day when I've salivating a lot. My carotid arteries seem to be aching also. My guess is I have a high concentration of oxalate in those areas and the inflammation is from dumping them. I further guess that EDS, and lack of blood movement, has concentrated the ox above the shoulders.

I'd love to eat a whole lot more meat, but 1. I've gone from not digesting it, to digesting it poorly. If I only eat meat, it's as if I've eaten nothing. 2. I worry about the lack of vitamin C too. How are all these carnivores not getting scurvy?
I saw this explanation a while ago because I wondered the same. It seems plausible.
Empirica: C is for Carnivore
 

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The free radical concern appears legit, but it seems to me that the docosahexaenoic acid justification is to be at ease with not getting extra. It could've been that he tried multiple products later without success, so he had to convince himself that a lower intake sufficed. I think it does when everything is running smoothly, but otherwise, most degenerative conditions respond well to it. 50 mg is quite low, yet it was enough to take care of the issue that he was dealing with back then. If an adequate diet provides multiple grams of it and they is interchangeable, why would such amount make a difference? I'm confused.

Not long ago I sent him the 3 links from the post below, but didn't get a reply, probably because he's fed up with this topic being brought up every month on his email by an original thinker.
- Dr. Ray Peat, Ph.D – Vitamin D, Thyroid, Evolving Consciously And Much More -August 20, 2019
 
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yerrag

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I saw this explanation a while ago because I wondered the same. It seems plausible.
Empirica: C is for Carnivore
Thanks. This explains why scurvy developed for sailors then. They were not eating meals made with fresh meat. Fresh meat contains vitamin C, whereas dried or cured meat doesn't.
 
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I suppose the sailors who had scurvy didn't have a good human daily diet.
Harsh conditions of sea are important too. Probably it rises vit C demands and turnover.

I definitely had good results from mega dosing vitamin C 25 years ago. About 20 years ago I had a body fluid exposure at work that required 50 days straight of levaquin antibiotic and after that everything changed for me. I now believe my oxalate metabolizing flora was completely wiped out and continued use of antibiotics multiple times per year until this last year kept me from recovering any whatsoever. I’m still not sure if I will be able to fix this issue and I may need to stay on a low oxalate diet permanently. I will consider the sodium form though if I ever need vitamin C. Thank you so much for the information!

I posted about Indian big pharma player already making oxalate metabolizing probiotics. And there is one more Canadian company.
Analysis of commercial kidney stone probiotic supplements
 
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tankasnowgod

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Your welcome !
Pauling recommend 6 to 18 g of vitamin C daily not only to avoid scurvy, but for optimal health.
Very strange this different point of views.
Does DHAA in meat increment iron absorption ?

The only time that Vitamin C had ever been shown to increase iron absorption is in single meal challeneges with non-heme iron, and that was in the form of an iron supplement. It doesn't affect absorption of heme, and the one longer term study I saw (16 weeks) showed that Vitamin C's effect on ferritin was unpredictable, and lowered the highest starting ferritin levels in the experiment considerably.

Regardless, since the DHAA has likely always been there, it would always have been affecting red meat or heme absorption.
 
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It has been hypothesized that T-2 and diacetoxyscirpenol are associated with a human disease called alimentary toxic aleukia. The symptoms of the disease include inflammation of the skin, vomiting, and damage to hematopoietic tissues. The acute phase is accompanied by necrosis in the oral cavity, bleeding from the nose, mouth, and vagina, and central nervous system disorders. It is possible that alimentary toxic aleukia may sometimes have been misdiagnosed as diphtheria or scurvy (171).

Mycotoxins exposition in sailors probably a contributive factor.

Mycotoxins
 

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