Ray Peat Interview - June 1st, 2019 With Jodelle - Cortisol, Low Testosterone, Dangers Of A No Sugar

[CLASH]

@corvetteseeker
I’ve been workin these past few days so its hard to respond to the longer posts. The quick one hit responses I can get in when I have a few minutes but the long ones require me to sit down and focus to explain why and what. I will respond, I also made a blog so I can send people there because I get alot of similar questions. I’m going to make a post on how I set up my diet that I think you may like. Give me a little time.

 

[yerrag]

@yerrag
Check out the studies I posted. The authors administered just plain glucose during the fast and it prevented the drop in hormones. I think a juice fast incorporating minerals would work well, especially if your of the thought that one of the main benefits of fasting is due to the drop in endotoxin. I enjoy grape juice with vit c, calcium carbonate and magnesium gluconate as an anti-stress cocktail. I add taurine to but thats tangential to the point here.


Influence of short-term fasting on the pituitary-testicular axis in normal men. - PubMed - NCBI

“To explore possible mechanisms behind the decreased basal release of T and LH, 9 small doses of glucose were given orally at regular intervals during a 56-hour fast to 9 additional normal men to maintain blood glucose levels. These men did not experience a fall in serum T or LH.”

Thanks CLASH. A juice fast would be helpful.

 

[yerrag]

@rei
It’d be foolish to discount someone entirely because they were or are wrong about one thing, atleast in my opinion. The information in the video later on is interesting at worst and possibly helpful at best. The Speaker also doesnt seem to like sugar; it is what it is.

Ray at one point in his writing didnt like sugar, promoted ketogenic diets and recommended wheat bran, i would probably stop reading his articles as well.

I watched the Barry Groves video.

He's dead at 77. Ray Peat still lives on and is in his 80s. Barry Groves makes a persuasive case if all his facts do check out, especially with his timeline, especially about brain size of humans getting smaller since humans started to incorporate more carbs into what he eats. Since it is so counter to what Peat says, I have to step back and suspend belief in this. Ray Peat talks about the plentiful availability of sugar being instrumental in the development of brain size.

Groves makes a strong argument about the relative small size of our digestive system being tied to our nature as carnivores, and contrasts it with the large digestive system of herbivores. However, I am not convinced of that arguments as the herbivores' digestive system being large has a lot to do with it being able to digest cellulose. Not all plants are full of cellulose, and our small digestive system can handle the digestion of plants devoid of cellulose. So it makes little sense to argue for humans being carnivores on the basis of the size of his digestive system.

Moreover, being carnivorous makes us deficient in minerals, which are needed to establish a healthy acid-base balance. Eating as a carnivores, we would have an acidic balance and this would place an increasingly taxing burden on our kidneys. Perhaps that's why Groves didn't last as long as Ray Peat, who understands the value of mineral intake as they are alkalizing and would establish a healthier acid-base balance and provide for longevity.

However, I would agree with Barry Groves that meat as well as the accompanying fat that comes with meat is needed to provide nutrition for humans. I would not go low-fat and I would go for saturated fat, which is the fat that comes with eating animal meat (except for the factory farm-raised ones). I value fat as a dense source of energy, as well as for being less useful for bacteria to thrive in our gut.

 

[rei]

Human has half the large intestine and double the small intestine compared to other apes. This strongly suggests we evolved because we did not have to rely on fermentation as our source of calories. Symbiosis with gut bacteria might inherently be a stressful partnership, and whatever takes you away from it leaves energy to spare for other development.

 

[michael94]

I think anyone who fasts or promotes fasting is aware that it’s stressful, even if they don’t admit it, because their actions are what one would expect as a War against stress, in a way admitting they are taking a risk ( but a calculated one ). If one would only look up what fast means in German, they would get more profound insight than a million snake dieters. However, I also think that at times those of us on this raypeatforum have underestimated the weapons available for such a War, so it’s not all bad.

 

[yerrag]

My pulse upon waking is pretty much always 60bpm and it raises into the 70-80s after meals.

I have about the same pulse behavior as you, but lower. Wake up at 56. After meals goes to the same range. I would wonder whether it's alright, or maybe even a good thing, if our metabolism is downregulated during our sleep hours. After all, our body needs some rest. Is there literature dwelving on this? It's the prevailing wisdom in this forum that an always high rate of metabolism is a good thing.

As to heart rate going up after meals, I also wonder about that. Is it because the blood sugar is higher after meals that heart rate is up? Or is it because digestion is an energy-intensive process that it demands more energy, and so metabolism and heart rate naturally has to increase?

I'd like to have a constant pulse of 85, as some people in the forum do. But what if during sleep metabolism going down is a protective and healing adaptation of the body? What if it's a natural part of our circadian rhythm?

 

[Cirion]

Yeah it probably does/should go down during sleep, but my experience from data tracking 2+ months so far is that the days I wake up at 98.6 and 85 bpm (or close) correspond to days of good rest also. So if it does go down during sleep, it should probably look like a sine wave where the bottom of the wave is below 98.6/85 bpm, in the middle of sleep, and the goes back up to 98.6F and 85 bpm for preparation for waking up.

I didn't really believe all this myself until I started tracking pulses/temps AND how it correlates to my mood energy and libido that day. Trust me, you'll also be a believer.

 

[yerrag]

I can agree that a higher heart rate, where the heart is pumping efficiently, is an indication of high metabolism, and that it tracks with my experience of losing weight, or not gaining weight. But I'm not convinced with the metabolism, and the heart rate, having to be operating in a narrow band all throughout 24/7. If it's accepted to be a normal characteristic of body temperature to go lower during sleep, where we would wake up about half a degree lower (Celsius) than during the day, why would it be necessary as a sign of optimal health that our heart rate should be constantly high?

Is a constantly high rate of metabolism 24x7 a necessary condition of optimal health? If that isn't achieved, is one sub-optimal but normal?

I can appreciate your efforts towards that goal, and that your self-experimentation is not to be taken lightly, as I'm on the same arc as you but on another direction with my trials with my blood pressure. You may well prove your theory to be right after you've picked apart the confounders that stray you away. I'm just hoping that as I improve my blood pressure, I'll be removing the obstacles to a better metabolism, and that a consistently high metabolic rate would come as a natural consequence of my efforts on the blood pressure end of it. But right now, I'm willing to accept a variable and lower metabolic rate as the body's adaptation to my sub-optimal state.

 

[Gone Peating]

Human has half the large intestine and double the small intestine compared to other apes. This strongly suggests we evolved because we did not have to rely on fermentation as our source of calories. Symbiosis with gut bacteria might inherently be a stressful partnership, and whatever takes you away from it leaves energy to spare for other development.

What does this fact suggest in terms of what foods we should be eating? What does the small intestine favor?

 

[RWilly]

In my experience adding long chain saturated and monounsaturated fats not only didnt cause weight gain it causef weight loss and a leaning out while keeping muscles strong and firm. I think this is the testosterone effect peat is reffering to. Hormonal profile trumps calories in/ calories out dogma.

What were your main sources of saturated fat?

 

[CLASH]

Mainly brain fog and lethargy whereas there is much less of this with casein based dairy +sugars/fruit. But I need to experiment more before I make this conclusive because I do feel good with beef later during the day.

So am I understanding you correctly that the only carbs you recommend are fruit derived? So no added sugars like honey, maple syrup, sugar, etc?

Also, how do you get down all the coconut oil and beef tallow? Do you just cook your beef in it and that's it?

Everything you're saying makes sense because it combines carnivore with fruitarian and these approaches seem to have the most weight loss success.
I would also prefer your method to work because cottage cheese and feta are much more expensive than beef per unit of protein, lol

Thank you for being so generous sharing your approach.

Are you sure its the beef? How fast does this occur after you eat? Its definetly possible you dont do well with it, but I’m interested in the context. I have found that eating certain things can effect me a few hours later when it hits my colon.

Yessir only fruit and 100% fruit juice. I think purified sucrose can cause issues with bacteria in the intestine and isnt too great for mineral status. Honey has a terrible glucose: fructose ratio and in my experience can also cause bacterial issues in the intestine. I have also found certain varieties very allergenic. Maple syrup is almost all surcose and it has minerals and what not but for some reason I didnt handle it very well, i’d say its somewhat of a grey area. I would say experiment and see for yourself. I personally do best with fruit.

Yep, I cook my beef and seafood in a mix of coconut oil and beef tallow. For example I use a 1lb package of 93/7 ground beef and i cook it in 120g beef tallow and 40g of coconut oil. I use a food scale to weigh it all out, its easiest for me. I track everything on cronometer with a 7 day template I make and adjust as a i learn new things and experiment.

I want fasting to work so badly for me as it was the only way I was ever able to get a 6 pack but even when I was doing mild 16/8, my libido started to tank almost immediately.
Even worse, it just increases anxiety exponentially. I tend to overthink everything and have racing thoughts all day long when I fast. The last thing I want to do is talk to people. And my creative thought process becomes nonexistant.

If you do it, though, you definitely want to down lots of salt and perhaps some magnesium and potassium, too.

Fasting can reliably lower androgens and thyroid hormone while elevating cortisol, adrenaline and growth hormone significantly. I think the reason most people do well is due to alleviation of bacterial issues in the intestine due to not eating.

 

[CLASH]

@RWilly
Beef tallow and coconut oil.

 

[CLASH]

@rei
So what did you think about the info later in the video?

 

[CLASH]

@Gone Peating
The small intestine favors absorption of nutrients while the large intestine favors mostly fermentation. This combined with our high gastric acidity and the presence of a gallbladder indicates a diet higher in protein, fats and more easily digested carbs and lower in fibrous foods. We also dont absorb much of the short chain fatty acids produced by bacteria in our colons overall, so our colons arent as useful to us as the apes colon is to them.

 

[CLASH]

I watched the Barry Groves video.

He's dead at 77. Ray Peat still lives on and is in his 80s. Barry Groves makes a persuasive case if all his facts do check out, especially with his timeline, especially about brain size of humans getting smaller since humans started to incorporate more carbs into what he eats. Since it is so counter to what Peat says, I have to step back and suspend belief in this. Ray Peat talks about the plentiful availability of sugar being instrumental in the development of brain size.

Groves makes a strong argument about the relative small size of our digestive system being tied to our nature as carnivores, and contrasts it with the large digestive system of herbivores. However, I am not convinced of that arguments as the herbivores' digestive system being large has a lot to do with it being able to digest cellulose. Not all plants are full of cellulose, and our small digestive system can handle the digestion of plants devoid of cellulose. So it makes little sense to argue for humans being carnivores on the basis of the size of his digestive system.

Moreover, being carnivorous makes us deficient in minerals, which are needed to establish a healthy acid-base balance. Eating as a carnivores, we would have an acidic balance and this would place an increasingly taxing burden on our kidneys. Perhaps that's why Groves didn't last as long as Ray Peat, who understands the value of mineral intake as they are alkalizing and would establish a healthier acid-base balance and provide for longevity.

However, I would agree with Barry Groves that meat as well as the accompanying fat that comes with meat is needed to provide nutrition for humans. I would not go low-fat and I would go for saturated fat, which is the fat that comes with eating animal meat (except for the factory farm-raised ones). I value fat as a dense source of energy, as well as for being less useful for bacteria to thrive in our gut.

Go clarify I am not on favor of groves dietary strategies in entirety. I just think he has some useful information here in regards to difference in GI structure and dietary requirements. I also find it interesting that the macro breakdown of all the large mammals is relatively similar when you account for how thier physiologies are using strategies to meet thier macro requirements. I think both fat and sugar are required for an optimal nervous system and I think ray is right. With larger brains we actually have much higher sugar requirements. I disagree with barry on the low carb bs.

Its not size of the gi tract, its size of different portions of the gi tract. Our gi tract is smaller because it focuses more on an absorptive function therefore allowing less energy to be expended on digestion, allowing more energy to be spent on brain function. An expanded small intestine physiologically has very different functions than an expanded colon. We are carnivorous not because we have a smaller gi tract, we are carnivorous because our gi tract is more adapted to processing meat. Its also adept at processing some plants, such ad fruit and some vegetables. The focus of our gi tract is mainly absorption of easily digested carbs, animal proteins and fats.

Haha I agree, I dont think a pure carnivore diet is ideal. I think animal proteins and fats are needed tho. Again i took the useful info from barry here and threw out what I thought was not up to date.


Lol I wasnt reccomending a juice fast just saying if I was to fast or do some type of intermittent fasting I’d use juice and minerals, as ray peat suggested as well.


I think temperature is a better indicator along with the context provided by other indicators. I dont think heart rate is such an ideal metric overall. Too many variables involved with it. I think in context it can be helpful. Overall I wouldnt treat everything purely on pulse and temp, but I have already covered my opinion on that multiple times. Well see what happens with @Cirion ’s approach. I hope it works out but based on my experience, understanding so far and the info he has provided on this forum, I dont think the 40g of fat and 700g of carbs diet is going to workout in the long run. We’ll see tho, as always, the only way to know is to try it out.... i tried a similar approach at one point myself, didnt go well.

 

[Adrienlcrx]

Hi @CLASH do you try raw cane sugar? Maybe a good think I know.. rich in nutrients
PS: very good idea for the blog, Ithink it will be an effective and very useful summary

 

[rei]

What does this fact suggest in terms of what foods we should be eating? What does the small intestine favor?

Easily digestible food, fatty meat probably as the base with eggs, blood, insects, fruits, nuts etc. as supplements. A personal theory i have begun thinking about is that we maybe lost c vitamin synthesis capability as we distanced ourselves from bacterial fermentation.

@rei
So what did you think about the info later in the video?

It was OK, i picked up no further erroneous claims like i feared and the bible quotes were completely new info to me so was definitely worth a watch.

 

[yerrag]

Yep, I cook my beef and seafood in a mix of coconut oil and beef tallow. For example I use a 1lb package of 93/7 ground beef and i cook it in 120g beef tallow and 40g of coconut oil. I use a food scale to weigh it all out, its easiest for me. I track everything on cronometer with a 7 day template I make and adjust as a i learn new things and experiment.

That's something I can build on as I was thinking of going on a trial of lo-carb hi-fat for a period to see if it could help with lowering my blood pressure (more beta oxidation using up less oxygen). Like charlie, I prefer knowing where my ground beef is coming from. Do you trust the source of your ground beef? After reading Fast Food Nation, I no longer trust buying ground beef, seeing that the processing plant could use pink slime, and also mix different sources of ground beef to make sure the source of any contamination or outbreak can't easily be identified. My ground beef would be from a piece of say sirloin or strip loin, or whatever cut I desire. I'd tell the butcher to grind the slab on the spot. It costs more but for me it's worth the extra. If I needed extra fat, the butcher would be very happy to oblige. Incidentally, I can easily buy the fat trimming from my butcher for a song, and I can just heat up the fat to make beef tallow.

Its not size of the gi tract, its size of different portions of the gi tract. Our gi tract is smaller because it focuses more on an absorptive function therefore allowing less energy to be expended on digestion, allowing more energy to be spent on brain function. An expanded small intestine physiologically has very different functions than an expanded colon. We are carnivorous not because we have a smaller gi tract, we are carnivorous because our gi tract is more adapted to processing meat. Its also adept at processing some plants, such ad fruit and some vegetables. The focus of our gi tract is mainly absorption of easily digested carbs, animal proteins and fats.

That's very helpful. Gives us a good insight into what we should and shouldn't eat. When it's not too fibrous, we can eat raw. And when it's too fibrous, and we still want to eat it, we can cook it to make it more digestible. And this info is not just for humans. I'll feed cooked leaves mixed with the meat for my cats, and it helps them digest the leaves as well. And for my koi, I'd do the same thing, given that their digestive system is even smaller, meaning they do better with protein and fats. Funny thing though, those pellets filled with wheat and fiber, fed to pets, from cats and dogs to koi, just don't factor these pets' digestive needs - and they're "scientifically formulated."

Lol I wasnt reccomending a juice fast just saying if I was to fast or do some type of intermittent fasting I’d use juice and minerals, as ray peat suggested as well.

Oh, you weren't? But it's worth thinking about. I mean, when we go to sleep, aren't we fasting? So I may try going to sleep having fruit juice instead, loaded with minerals, and see if that will help with using fats for energy during sleep? Maybe it would help. Maybe it could raise my heart rate during sleep.

 

[corvetteseeker]

Are you sure its the beef? How fast does this occur after you eat?

The worst energy after beef, I've realized, is after chuck roast or beef isolate powder, not after ground beef. So it may be just a lack of fat?
I'm going to keep experimenting and moving more and more into your direction and see what happens.

I was liberally eating added sugars and milk fat this past week and already gained a few pounds so I need to change directions quickly, haha

Thanks so much for all the advice!

 

[Gone Peating]

The worst energy after beef, I've realized, is after chuck roast or beef isolate powder, not after ground beef. So it may be just a lack of fat?
I'm going to keep experimenting and moving more and more into your direction and see what happens.

I was liberally eating added sugars and milk fat this past week and already gained a few pounds so I need to change directions quickly, haha

Thanks so much for all the advice!

Ground beef is my go to meat, I would literally choose it over filet lol

I think throwing in shrimp squid and cod each once a week is good too, at least for me