Ray Peat Interview - June 1st, 2019 With Jodelle - Cortisol, Low Testosterone, Dangers Of A No Sugar

[corvetteseeker]

I would be hard pressed to believe that anyone would get fat with a diet of fruit, 100% fruit juice, beef, seafood, specific vegetables, coconut oil, beef tallow, cocoa butter. Even if they had a f*cked up gut, I still dont think they would get fat.

Clash, I have been following a lot of your comments lately and am very intrigued by your approach. I hope you'll be a good sport and help answer a few questions?

I sort of wrecked my thyroid/metabolism/libido doing a ton of fasting and am still struggling to regain my health and slim down. I have a tendency to put on weight easily. I'm with you on the fruit. I was all on board for beef but I've felt off so many times recently when trying to eat it at any time besides dinner, even with sugar/fruit. And then I found this thread which could provide an explanation ...

Weight Loss: Starch And Trytophan Are What Are Stopping You

I definitely feel much better on cottage cheese/feta than yogurt, cheese, whey, etc. Have you ever tried isolating dairy in this manner?

Regarding your approach, I did see a recent example of what you eat in a day. It seems like you take an ad libitum approach w/ calories as long as they are the correct foods?

Do you have history of weight gain before your recent success?

Do you ever stray away from the diet here and there without it derailing your progress?

Sorry for all the questions, I just really find your approach interesting and it may hold the keys to fixing my health.

 

[corvetteseeker]

Also what about eggs or pork - do they have any place for leaning down?

 

[CLASH]

@corvetteseeker
I’m happy to answer questions.

Can you elaborate on the off feeling with meat?

I have tried all manners of dairy, you can see some old posts I have detailing my theories on dairy in which i was using it to try and improve my health. Didnt work out too well for me lol. My body just doesnt seem to like dairy. However, I think that some people can do just fine with it, so as with everything I think it comes down to experimentation.


I’m more interested in meeting thresholds of macros based on how I feel than worrying about calories. I use calories as an associative factor sometimes for food energy amount but I often dont even look at how much calories i’m eating. To answer your question specifically, yes, i think if you eat the correct foods you dont have to worry about calories really. Theres mutliple factors as to why tho.

When i ate alot of plantains (6-8/ day) to bulk up as I was into bodybuilding I ballooned to 220lbs. I wasnt neccesarily fat because I was lifting heavy and moving the bulk into muscle but I was unhealthy and had a very bloated gut. Then when I tried dairy, specifically cow dairy, I went up to 220lbs as well, this time I was for sure fat. I still had muscle because I was working out but I was carrying alot of water and alot of fat all over. My belly was bloated here as well. I had acne all over my back, mild gyno, hairloss, low sex drive, poor erection quality, and low motivation with dairy.


I usually stick to my diet pretty religiously. I’ve had some chronic digestive issues that i have just gotten around to fully addressing, so in the meantime I have been sticking to the diet out of neccesity because if I dont I get symptoms that can impair my everyday life. Its only recently this has changed.

My gripe with eggs and pork is PUFA. Besides that I think they’d be great foods, although pork can be high in parasites if not raised properly and the meat isnt handled well. If you can find pork fed properly or eggs from properly fed chickens I think they’d be great additions to the diet. Just as if you can tolerate milk, I think its a great condition to the diet.

It may seem like I am anti-dairy, but I’m not. I really wish I could eat dairy. I love the taste. It has a pretty amazing nutrition profile. Eggs and pork have great nutrition profiles as well. If there were low PUFA sources I’d probably eat them both. I only post seemingly negative info about dairy, because I’m posting the mechanisms as to why I think I dont tolerate it well so others who arent tolerating it can understand why they may be having issues. I think a lot of people dont tolerate it and they hear ray talk or other forum members talk and they think at some point if they keep eating dairy and maybe take some thyroid or use antibiotics theyll be fine drinking it. For some people this is definetly the case. For others I want to provide perspective so they can see that it might be possible that dairy doesnt work for you and thats ok.

As always though, the only way to know something is to experiment.

 

[rei]

Really good interview and maybe now finally people have a source to go and listen to when they argue against intermittent fasting. It is probably the third time i hear RP imply that IF can be healthy as long as you have glycogen stores, and if you are healthy that means 24 hours if not doing physical activity. Quite a bit different than what many on the forum have gathered from his teachings.

 

[CLASH]

Influence of short-term fasting on the pituitary-testicular axis in normal men. - PubMed - NCBI

“Basal serum T fell from 8.7 +/- 0.7 to 5.7 +/- 0.8 micrograms/l (p less than 0.01), and LH from 6.9 +/- 0.8 to 5.0 +/- 0.7 U/l (p less than 0.01). Serum estradiol (E2) and FSH remained unaffected. T”

“These results imply that: short-term fasting exerts inhibitory influence on Leydig cell function via a mechanism which might involve a reduced hypothalamic and/or pituitary stimulation.”

Effects of eight weeks of time-restricted feeding (16/8) on basal metabolism, maximal strength, body composition, inflammation, and cardiovascular risk factors in resistance-trained males

“After 8 weeks, the 2 Way ANOVA (Time * Diet interaction) showed a decrease in fat mass in TRF compared to ND (p = 0.0448), while fat-free mass, muscle area of the arm and thigh, and maximal strength were maintained in both groups. Testosterone and insulin-like growth factor 1 decreased significantly in TRF, with no changes in ND (p = 0.0476; p = 0.0397). Adiponectin increased (p = 0.0000) in TRF while total leptin decreased (p = 0.0001), although not when adjusted for fat mass. Triiodothyronine decreased in TRF, but no significant changes were detected in thyroid-stimulating hormone, total cholesterol, high-density lipoprotein, low-density lipoprotein, or triglycerides. Resting energy expenditure was unchanged, but a significant decrease in respiratory ratio was observed in the TRF group.”

 

[yerrag]

Really good interview and maybe now finally people have a source to go and listen to when they argue against intermittent fasting. It is probably the third time i hear RP imply that IF can be healthy as long as you have glycogen stores, and if you are healthy that means 24 hours if not doing physical activity. Quite a bit different than what many on the forum have gathered from his teachings.

Also Ray said that in fasting to take electrolytes so as to keep muscles from being used to supply glucose, and to enable more fat to be burned. I should try this if fat burning is what I want during a fast. But of course, if the fast is meant to remove senescent tissues then it would be good to stay away from electrolyte intake.

Ray also said a fast with about 600 calories of sugar along with electrolytes is one approach.

 

[corvetteseeker]

@corvetteseeker
I’m happy to answer questions.

Can you elaborate on the off feeling with meat?

Mainly brain fog and lethargy whereas there is much less of this with casein based dairy +sugars/fruit. But I need to experiment more before I make this conclusive because I do feel good with beef later during the day.

So am I understanding you correctly that the only carbs you recommend are fruit derived? So no added sugars like honey, maple syrup, sugar, etc?

Also, how do you get down all the coconut oil and beef tallow? Do you just cook your beef in it and that's it?

Everything you're saying makes sense because it combines carnivore with fruitarian and these approaches seem to have the most weight loss success.
I would also prefer your method to work because cottage cheese and feta are much more expensive than beef per unit of protein, lol

Thank you for being so generous sharing your approach.

 

[corvetteseeker]

I want fasting to work so badly for me as it was the only way I was ever able to get a 6 pack but even when I was doing mild 16/8, my libido started to tank almost immediately.
Even worse, it just increases anxiety exponentially. I tend to overthink everything and have racing thoughts all day long when I fast. The last thing I want to do is talk to people. And my creative thought process becomes nonexistant.

If you do it, though, you definitely want to down lots of salt and perhaps some magnesium and potassium, too.

 

[corvetteseeker]

The answer to why fasting works for some but not for others may have been discovered by Christian Thibaudeau.

He is a Canadian Olympic lifter, body builder and coach. Both of his parents were psychologists and he started
making connections between the neurotransmitter research they were using and diet/exercise.

He used it to come up with a breakthrough neurotyping profile based on someone's neurotransmitter level.

To make a long story short, on one end of the spectrum, you have type A neurotypes who naturally have
very low cortisol and very high gaba. Think of your rah-rah alpha males and also your very fluid, relaxed athletes.

These people can handle just about any diet or workout routine (including fasting) because their neurological
profile is very resilient and they can keep cortisol low.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have a type 3 neurotype who is your accountant/marathon runner/introvert type.
These people have cortisol through the roof and so any stress to the body is exponential.

I am probably a type 2 b which is close to type 3.

Anyhow, it's super fascinating stuff and well worth reading about.

 

[rei]

Alot of people think that the human diet is very individual, I dont think so. I think the base diet is the same for all of us with individual variations in toleration of foods like dairy and starches. Universally I think grains, beans, most nuts, seeds, refined foods, alcohol, vegetable oils etc. are not human foods.

Dairy has one of the worst amino acid profiles of all protein sources. Red meat has one of the best amino acid profiles, especially ground meat. Look up the amino acids on cronometer and you will see. The best amino acid ratio is ground meat. It also is the lowest in pufa and is one of the most usable proteins by the body.

I think low fat diets are not the ideal way to eat for the human body. I think the low fat dogma on this forum is just flat out wrong and many people are suffering for it and conjuring unicorns and fairytales to rationalize thier cognitive dissonance. I Especially believe this becuase the main argument behind it is the randle cycle. Its too simplistic considering fats are used for different funcions in the body than merely energy substrate. Carbs are also used for different functions. Even more so I think that tissues prioritize fuel use, so when you eat fats and sugar together the fats serves as a fuel source for muscles and the sugar serves as a fuel source for the nervous tissue and organs.

I would be hard pressed to believe that anyone would get fat with a diet of fruit, 100% fruit juice, beef, seafood, specific vegetables, coconut oil, beef tallow, cocoa butter. Even if they had a f*cked up gut, I still dont think they would get fat.

Also @Cirion I have seen the graphs you posted a few times, I dont really see any significant trend lines in the graphs. I think you may be spinning your wheels. Your 100lbs overweight man, I dont think pulse and temp are going to be your savoir, they havent been so far. This is why I asked you the other day at what point are you going to stop with this experiment. You didnt have a real answer, so I didnt say anything because I dont want to beat a dead horse. I think you may be deluding yourself somewhat with these metrics. Thats not to say dont test your theory out, but it is to say that after a month or two if its not working, consider the fact that you may be chasing your own tail. I’m not being hard on you, to be an assh*le but look at your diet man, its like 700g of grams of carbs and your 100lbs overweight and nothing you have done so far has gotten you to lose any significant amount of weight. You continue to blame fats but you keep limiting them and your weight isnt really going down by your own admission.

If the experiment doesnt work, hit me up if your interested in trying to implement a diet with more fat. If I get you to lose 100lbs you owe me a bottle of 100% grape juice.

The guy is so wrong in his introduction i cannot even bother to watch the whole video. Apparently he has never heard about herbivores eating animals? Horses, cows, giraffes etc. are known to eat small animals for protein.

 

[CLASH]

@yerrag
Check out the studies I posted. The authors administered just plain glucose during the fast and it prevented the drop in hormones. I think a juice fast incorporating minerals would work well, especially if your of the thought that one of the main benefits of fasting is due to the drop in endotoxin. I enjoy grape juice with vit c, calcium carbonate and magnesium gluconate as an anti-stress cocktail. I add taurine to but thats tangential to the point here.


Influence of short-term fasting on the pituitary-testicular axis in normal men. - PubMed - NCBI

“To explore possible mechanisms behind the decreased basal release of T and LH, 9 small doses of glucose were given orally at regular intervals during a 56-hour fast to 9 additional normal men to maintain blood glucose levels. These men did not experience a fall in serum T or LH.”

 

[CLASH]

@rei
It’d be foolish to discount someone entirely because they were or are wrong about one thing, atleast in my opinion. The information in the video later on is interesting at worst and possibly helpful at best. The Speaker also doesnt seem to like sugar; it is what it is.

Ray at one point in his writing didnt like sugar, promoted ketogenic diets and recommended wheat bran, i would probably stop reading his articles as well.

 

[rei]

I just assume the rest is as incorrect as that point and thus not worth an hour. Since you seem to think it is so worthwhile i shall watch it.

 

[CLASH]

@rei
Worst comes to worst you can skim it. I promise i’ll remove the gun from your head if you do

 

[corvetteseeker]

@CLASH just curious if you saw my couple of follow up questions - sorry for the trouble, I just really value your feedback

 

[tankasnowgod]

Great interview. Very good explanation of why IF seemed to work great for me for a few months, but when I really tried to "dial it in," created a whole bunch of problems. Also seems to jive quite nicely with what Haidut and Roddy were talking about in their latest livestream, especially the paper on how obesity is basically a low grade form of Cushing's Disease.

I had been using a lot of things that were "Anti-Cortisol" recently, but not really seeing great effects, either in mood or body composition. I've made some changes over the past few days, but one of the biggest was seeking out some of the Pregnenolone/Cortisol studies that Haidut previously posted. This one stands out the most-

Pregnenolone Is The Most Potent Inhibitor Of The Stress Signal (CRH)

It suggests that if stress hormones are high, that high dose preg could be a good supplement. I have added about 200mg of Preg the past few days, and wow, the improvement in mood, energy, and cognitive ability has been fantastic.

 

[Gone Peating]

Great interview. Very good explanation of why IF seemed to work great for me for a few months, but when I really tried to "dial it in," created a whole bunch of problems. Also seems to jive quite nicely with what Haidut and Roddy were talking about in their latest livestream, especially the paper on how obesity is basically a low grade form of Cushing's Disease.

I had been using a lot of things that were "Anti-Cortisol" recently, but not really seeing great effects, either in mood or body composition. I've made some changes over the past few days, but one of the biggest was seeking out some of the Pregnenolone/Cortisol studies that Haidut previously posted. This one stands out the most-

Pregnenolone Is The Most Potent Inhibitor Of The Stress Signal (CRH)

It suggests that if stress hormones are high, that high dose preg could be a good supplement. I have added about 200mg of Preg the past few days, and wow, the improvement in mood, energy, and cognitive ability has been fantastic.

What time do you take it and do you divide it into doses?

 

[tankasnowgod]

What time do you take it and do you divide it into doses?

I've been taking the Pregnenolone in the morning. I think it can be overly stimulating at night, but some may find it relaxing if really stressed. I take it all at once, but may split it up into two morning doses.

 

[Pufas Shmoofas]

Also Ray said that in fasting to take electrolytes so as to keep muscles from being used to supply glucose, and to enable more fat to be burned. I should try this if fat burning is what I want during a fast. But of course, if the fast is meant to remove senescent tissues then it would be good to stay away from electrolyte intake.

Ray also said a fast with about 600 calories of sugar along with electrolytes is one approach.

I bet just a little salt to go along with some fruit juice is all you need if just going to "fast" until dinner.

 

[yerrag]

I bet just a little salt to go along with some fruit juice is all you need if just going to "fast" until dinner.

That's true, since fruit juice already contains lots of potassium, some calcium and some magnesium, as well as some salt. I may add some magnesium and calcium as well, and it wouldn't hurt. But to simplify it, doing what you said is more practical.