Ray Peat Interview - June 1st, 2019 With Jodelle - Cortisol, Low Testosterone, Dangers Of A No Sugar

[Cirion]

Cirion, you run a daily 1600 calorie surplus and yet you wonder why you are morbidly obese???

What am I missing here??

I don't wonder anymore. I know. And it's because I have not been consistent with getting 98.6F temp and 85 BPM pulse each and every morning. I reached this epiphany when I finally made the decision to start tracking data and stop speculating as to why.

I got fat because I ate high fat alongside the high sugar previously. You only need around 40g of fat a day, maybe 60g at most (Which BTW falls in line with how much Ray eats a day). Also because I ate high tryptophan foods (like dairy), and excessive starches. I also got fat because I did not consistently achieve 98.6F temps and 85 BPM pulses.

 

[Dobbler]

This is what I had yesterday and today I had 98.5F waking temp and 80 BPM waking pulse.

View attachment 13447

I have been collecting data for 2 months now, and continuing to get more every day. Here is what I have so far on carbs vs. waking temps and pulses. I had no occurrence of days with a proper waking pulse or temp with less than around 700 grams of carbs. I have more plots in my thread I made here if curious. Determining Effect Of Diet On Metabolism And Weight Loss/Gain Through Data Collection

View attachment 13448
View attachment 13449

Im from EU so "cup" and "oz" are gibberish for me but i quess i have to believe it if you are keeping strict book and track everything down. What supps are you taking and are you taking any thyroid?

 

[Cirion]

Preventing and treating cancer with progesterone.

The combination of pulse rate and temperature is much better than either one alone. I happened to see two people whose resting pulse rates were chronically extremely high, despite their hypothyroid symptoms. When they took a thyroid supplement, their pulse rates came down to normal. (Healthy and intelligent groups of people have been found to have an average resting pulse rate of 85/minute, while less healthy groups average close to 70/minute.)

But he does acknowledge pulse can be high in hypothyroid, so you also want to look at temps and make sure you are at least 98.6F also. CO2 is another marker to look at it, as is blood pressure apparently, so maybe I should start tracking that also.

 

[Cirion]

Im from EU so "cup" and "oz" are gibberish for me but i quess i have to believe it if you are keeping strict book and track everything down. What supps are you taking and are you taking any thyroid?

Zero supplements. They're all a waste of time and money for the most part. No thyroid either. When I tried taking T3 it just made me worse, probably because my body ramped up reverse T3 in response. Plus with zero supplementation, it's far easier for me to see how dietary changes improve my health.

 

[LiveWire]

I don't wonder anymore. I know. And it's because I have not been consistent with getting 98.6F temp and 85 BPM pulse each and every morning. I reached this epiphany when I finally made the decision to start tracking data and stop speculating as to why.

I got fat because I ate high fat alongside the high sugar previously. You only need around 40g of fat a day, maybe 60g at most (Which BTW falls in line with how much Ray eats a day). Also because I ate high tryptophan foods (like dairy), and excessive starches. I also got fat because I did not consistently achieve 98.6F temps and 85 BPM pulses.

Very fat people often have high pulse and high temperature, neither of it because they follow Ray Peat principles. They need a fast heart rate as a necessity to supply oxygen to their oversized body, and they sweat a lot because, well, the fat is a pretty good heat insulator.

Is it possible you’re dwelling a little waaaay too much on these two indicators, and completely missing the forest for the trees?

 

[Cirion]

Very fat people often have high pulse and high temperature, neither of it because they follow Ray Peat principles. They need a fast heart rate as a necessity to supply oxygen to their oversized body, and they sweat a lot because, well, the fat is a pretty good heat insulator.

Is it possible you’re dwelling a little waaaay too much on these two indicators, and completely missing the forest for the trees?

Nah, that's a negative. When I am doing things wrong, my waking temps can be as low as 97.5F (horrible diet, bad sleep etc) and pulse as low as 50-60 and I feel really bad. I actually had to skip work one day a month or two ago when my waking temp was 97.6F because I just felt like a ZOMBIE lol. I really doubt you can find a fat person that wakes up with 98.6F temp and 85 bpm pulse. Yeah sure their heart rate may exceed that during exertion, in fact probably will, but that's why RESTING pulse rate is the metric of choice not active pulse. Sweating a lot actually often means you are dumping heat which in a hypothyroid individual usually corresponds to being COLD (low body temperatures, lower than 98.6F).

I made many mistakes when I first started including lots of processed foods, lots of pufa, lots of tryptophan, lots of dairy, lots of total dietary fat, too much dietary protein and much more, it is all this that led to my problems. I rarely had temperatures better than 98F, because I kept inhibiting my thyroid with anti-thyroid substances, too much dietary fat/tryptophan/pufas etc.

I am not missing the forest at all. In fact it was the trees I was obsessing over before which are supplements, micromanaging micronutrients and so forth, all that matters, but the forest is in fact - how is your metabolism (pulse, CO2, temperature, energy/mood/libido etc). Optimize the metabolism, optimize the androgens, reduce the stressful hormones, automatically your weight will reduce also.

Also, I've had more than enough days where I feel good on high temp and pulse to know I'm right on this. For example a month or two ago when I felt the best I have in literally a year - Had a 3 day-rolling average waking temp of 98.45F, and a waking pulse of 90 BPM that day. I felt almost perfect that day. Today while my temp and pulse wasn't entirely perfect (0.1F below ideal, 5 BPM below ideal), I'm feeling fairly decent today for example too.

 

[Mufasa]

Nah, that's a negative. When I am doing things wrong, my waking temps can be as low as 97.5F (horrible diet, bad sleep etc) and pulse as low as 50-60 and I feel really bad. I actually had to skip work one day a month or two ago when my waking temp was 97.6F because I just felt like a ZOMBIE lol. I really doubt you can find a fat person that wakes up with 98.6F temp and 85 bpm pulse. Yeah sure their heart rate may exceed that during exertion, in fact probably will, but that's why RESTING pulse rate is the metric of choice not active pulse. Sweating a lot actually often means you are dumping heat which in a hypothyroid individual usually corresponds to being COLD (low body temperatures, lower than 98.6F).

I made many mistakes when I first started including lots of processed foods, lots of pufa, lots of tryptophan, lots of dairy, lots of total dietary fat, too much dietary protein and much more, it is all this that led to my problems. I rarely had temperatures better than 98F, because I kept inhibiting my thyroid with anti-thyroid substances, too much dietary fat/tryptophan/pufas etc.

I am not missing the forest at all. In fact it was the trees I was obsessing over before which are supplements, micromanaging micronutrients and so forth, all that matters, but the forest is in fact - how is your metabolism (pulse, CO2, temperature, energy/mood/libido etc). Optimize the metabolism, optimize the androgens, reduce the stressful hormones, automatically your weight will reduce also.

Also, I've had more than enough days where I feel good on high temp and pulse to know I'm right on this. For example a month or two ago when I felt the best I have in literally a year - Had a 3 day-rolling average waking temp of 98.45F, and a waking pulse of 90 BPM that day. I felt almost perfect that day. Today while my temp and pulse wasn't entirely perfect (0.1F below ideal, 5 BPM below ideal), I'm feeling fairly decent today for example too.

Interesting technique, keep us posted.

 

[Pufas Shmoofas]

When I tried taking T3 it just made me worse, probably because my body ramped up reverse T3 in response.

Is it possible to produce reverse T3 in response to "excess" t3 supplementation? I thought the body can only produces Reverse T3 in response to T4, but never t3.

Also, is dairy really that high of a tryptophan protein compared to meat? I find is strange Peat would recommend dairy when he dislikes Tryptophan so much. From listening to him, I gathered meat was the highest tryptophan protein where one should make sure to balance with glycine. Strange if Dairy is worse then Meat in this regard. If dairy is higher in tryptophan on paper, maybe it has other things that balance it out -- that make it lower in tryptophan then meat in practice.

 

[Pufas Shmoofas]

You're right, but when you're fat, some amount of body-fat loss is mandatory, so yes, some (a lot in some cases) of fat needs to be liberated from body fat stores to lose it. You're gonna liberate that fat one way or another to lose it, whether you're on low-fat or a higher-fat diet, so I don't understand the argument presented here. Also I definitely have found you need roughly 40 gram (or at least I do) of fat a day on average, so I certainly don't promote a zero fat diet, just not 100-200 a day. I think Ray eats around 60 a day? Pretty close to me.

I agree, but I find that even 40g of fat slows weight loss for me. I need to at practically zero grams unfortunately. I don't think this is screwing up hormones.

 

[bennyha]

I don't wonder anymore. I know. And it's because I have not been consistent with getting 98.6F temp and 85 BPM pulse each and every morning. I reached this epiphany when I finally made the decision to start tracking data and stop speculating as to why.

I got fat because I ate high fat alongside the high sugar previously. You only need around 40g of fat a day, maybe 60g at most (Which BTW falls in line with how much Ray eats a day). Also because I ate high tryptophan foods (like dairy), and excessive starches. I also got fat because I did not consistently achieve 98.6F temps and 85 BPM pulses.

No offense, but you’re chasing rainbows imo. I did the sage thing, chasing temps and pulse numbers for years, even working with a Peat inspired practitioner. It was the only time in my life I gained a substantial amount of weight. I looked and felt like ***t despite hitting the ideal pulse and temps. And they would never stay for long. After a week or so they would dip down and up and even when they were “ideal” nothing changed for me. I was eating like every 2-3 hours and in my opinion humans aren’t meant to live like that. My whole life revolved around food and getting some sort of crap sugar or carb in my body every couple hours to “keep my temps and pulse” elevated. It was such a waste of time.

I find my temps stay in the 98’s and pulse always in mid 70’s to mid 80’s range all day every day eating two large red meat based meals. Two other people I am close with have been experiencing the same thing for over 6 months as well. We are all extremely different body styles and circumstances and all have similar experiences.

I think a lot of the phosphorus to calcium ratios and all that stuff is a lot of nothing personally as well. I’ve been doing hair tests for 5 years and have tried all sorts of diets with all these supplements and having a meat based diet and eating higher fat my body is basically healing on its own and my numbers are all coming into balance and I literally need no supplements anymore besides maybe magnesium. I check every 6 months and they keep getting better and better.

I know we are all different. I just remember obsessively chasing pulse and temps eating all those carbs every two hours and it got me nowhere and my blood and hair test results were by far the worst during this 18 month period until I finally gave up

 

[Cirion]

No offense, but you’re chasing rainbows imo. I did the sage thing, chasing temps and pulse numbers for years, even working with a Peat inspired practitioner. It was the only time in my life I gained a substantial amount of weight. I looked and felt like ***t despite hitting the ideal pulse and temps. And they would never stay for long. After a week or so they would dip down and up and even when they were “ideal” nothing changed for me. I was eating like every 2-3 hours and in my opinion humans aren’t meant to live like that. My whole life revolved around food and getting some sort of crap sugar or carb in my body every couple hours to “keep my temps and pulse” elevated. It was such a waste of time.

I find my temps stay in the 98’s and pulse always in mid 70’s to mid 80’s range all day every day eating two large red meat based meals. Two other people I am close with have been experiencing the same thing for over 6 months as well. We are all extremely different body styles and circumstances and all have similar experiences.

I think a lot of the phosphorus to calcium ratios and all that stuff is a lot of nothing personally as well. I’ve been doing hair tests for 5 years and have tried all sorts of diets with all these supplements and having a meat based diet and eating higher fat my body is basically healing on its own and my numbers are all coming into balance and I literally need no supplements anymore besides maybe magnesium. I check every 6 months and they keep getting better and better.

I know we are all different. I just remember obsessively chasing pulse and temps eating all those carbs every two hours and it got me nowhere and my blood and hair test results were by far the worst during this 18 month period until I finally gave up

Did you tracking temperature and pulse waking up and get those to 98.6F and 85BPM? I guarantee if you do or did, you'd notice the difference. I actually find that waking temp and pulse (before eating food) matters way more than the temps and pulses you actually get during the day.

It's funny, because you sound like me 2-3 months ago. I also was losing faith in the temps and pulses method because I could keep it elevated during the day, like you said, but still got sicker and fatter. Then I realized the missing key. WAKING body temp and pulse. I find my energy, mood, weight etc is STRONGLY correlated to temp and pulse *waking up* not the pulses and temp during the day.

Now, whatever diet you use to achieve the good waking body temp and pulse, is the ideal diet. Maybe for you it's a red meat based diet, that's possible.

I agree with you mostly on calcium. Calcium is overrated. I eat zero dairy. Never got any benefit from calcium.

 

[Inaut]

JMO and I like your approach scientifically @Cirion but:

I think that tracking things to the level of minutiae only complicates matters, creates a level of stress on your mental energy and leads to frustrations in the end. As I said, I like your approach but when I see graphs on diet, I completely tune out. Centenarians just live, avoiding what they think is bad and doing what they think is good. My great grandmother was a prime example of this. She lived to be 104....PUFA was not something she knew about nor neglected..... Some things have direct correlation to health benefits, others just work for the individual. Part of life cannot be modeled nor controlled and some people just do better caring a little less. Anyways, hope you graph your way into optimal health. I'll ask for a spread sheet at that time :)

 

[YourUniverse]

We're all going to be healthy, eventually, and it will be by implementing Ray's ideas in context-appropriate ways

FWIW, Im continuing to drop weight, eating ~200g of milk chocolate daily, with coffee, 2% milk, orange juice, pineapple, rice, hamburger & steak, with glycine, niacinamide, vitamin D and E. Find what works for you - Ray's not wrong, but the version of his advice you've been trying might be wrong for you, right now (blanket statement)

 

[Cirion]

JMO and I like your approach scientifically @Cirion but:

I think that tracking things to the level of minutiae only complicates matters, creates a level of stress on your mental energy and leads to frustrations in the end. As I said, I like your approach but when I see graphs on diet, I completely tune out. Centenarians just live, avoiding what they think is bad and doing what they think is good. My great grandmother was a prime example of this. She lived to be 104....PUFA was not something she knew about nor neglected..... Some things have direct correlation to health benefits, others just work for the individual. Part of life cannot be modeled nor controlled and some people just do better caring a little less. Anyways, hope you graph your way into optimal health. I'll ask for a spread sheet at that time :)

Yeah to an extent there's truth to that, but diet definitely has massive impact, more than most think. I'm probably gonna mostly lurk the next few weeks until I have absolute 100% proof that my method works and then come back with the absolute proof. So stay tuned for that spreadsheet! =)

Is it possible to produce reverse T3 in response to "excess" t3 supplementation? I thought the body can only produces Reverse T3 in response to T4, but never t3.

Also, is dairy really that high of a tryptophan protein compared to meat? I find is strange Peat would recommend dairy when he dislikes Tryptophan so much. From listening to him, I gathered meat was the highest tryptophan protein where one should make sure to balance with glycine. Strange if Dairy is worse then Meat in this regard. If dairy is higher in tryptophan on paper, maybe it has other things that balance it out -- that make it lower in tryptophan then meat in practice.

Yes. I can't remember who said it here, but even if you take pure T3 you can still have rT3 problems. Your body is still making T4 at all times, and it may decide to turn all of its T4 into rT3 in response to the ingestion of T3. Red meat is the LOWEST tryptophan protein you can eat next to gelatin. Milk is one of the highest.

We're all going to be healthy, eventually, and it will be by implementing Ray's ideas in context-appropriate ways

FWIW, Im continuing to drop weight, eating ~200g of milk chocolate daily, with coffee, 2% milk, orange juice, pineapple, rice, hamburger & steak, with glycine, niacinamide, vitamin D and E. Find what works for you - Ray's not wrong, but the version of his advice you've been trying might be wrong for you, right now (blanket statement)

I agree. I think the temps and pulse advice is the ONLY advice that's always correct at this point, but whether you drink milk or don't, whether you have 100g SFA or 50g, etc, may be context dependent.

Interesting technique, keep us posted.

Will do. I'm probably gonna stop posting mostly and lurk for the next couple of weeks as I'm burned out responding to all the doubters. I'll come back with proof my method works though =) It's pointless to debate things when I know I'm right and I don't (Yet) have the irrefutable proof anyway so any debate until then is not too helpful.

 

[tankasnowgod]

She lived to be 104....PUFA was not something she knew about nor neglected.....

Well, it probably wasn't that big an issue for most of her life, either. PUFA intakes started going up significantly in the 80s and skyrocketed to new heights in the early 2000s. I'm guessing she also wasn't constantly on her cellphone surfing the web most of those years, either.

 

[Inaut]

@tankasnowgod true with regards to PUFA and wifi but I think it was something in her that enabled her to live so long. She had will power unlike most people I’ve encountered in my life. She lived through a world war and a civil war, buried all but one of her 5 daughters by the time she was 60 and lived in a house with chain smokers. She had other stressors which would weaken most people...

 

[Pufas Shmoofas]

Yes. I can't remember who said it here, but even if you take pure T3 you can still have rT3 problems. Your body is still making T4 at all times, and it may decide to turn all of its T4 into rT3 in response to the ingestion of T3. Red meat is the LOWEST tryptophan protein you can eat next to gelatin. Milk is one of the highest.

Is red meat ALLOT better then other meat in this regard? Say chicken for instance? Also it matters the cut... it wouldn't be fair to compare oxtail to chicken breast. But does a piece of pure cow meat (without any collagen) have much less tryptophan than a chicken breast?

 

[Mufasa]

Will do. I'm probably gonna stop posting mostly and lurk for the next couple of weeks as I'm burned out responding to all the doubters. I'll come back with proof my method works though =) It's pointless to debate things when I know I'm right and I don't (Yet) have the irrefutable proof anyway so any debate until then is not too helpful.

Sounds like a solid strategy.

 

[Blossom]

No offense, but you’re chasing rainbows imo. I did the sage thing, chasing temps and pulse numbers for years, even working with a Peat inspired practitioner. It was the only time in my life I gained a substantial amount of weight. I looked and felt like ***t despite hitting the ideal pulse and temps. And they would never stay for long. After a week or so they would dip down and up and even when they were “ideal” nothing changed for me. I was eating like every 2-3 hours and in my opinion humans aren’t meant to live like that. My whole life revolved around food and getting some sort of crap sugar or carb in my body every couple hours to “keep my temps and pulse” elevated. It was such a waste of time.

I find my temps stay in the 98’s and pulse always in mid 70’s to mid 80’s range all day every day eating two large red meat based meals. Two other people I am close with have been experiencing the same thing for over 6 months as well. We are all extremely different body styles and circumstances and all have similar experiences.

I think a lot of the phosphorus to calcium ratios and all that stuff is a lot of nothing personally as well. I’ve been doing hair tests for 5 years and have tried all sorts of diets with all these supplements and having a meat based diet and eating higher fat my body is basically healing on its own and my numbers are all coming into balance and I literally need no supplements anymore besides maybe magnesium. I check every 6 months and they keep getting better and better.

I know we are all different. I just remember obsessively chasing pulse and temps eating all those carbs every two hours and it got me nowhere and my blood and hair test results were by far the worst during this 18 month period until I finally gave up

That’s basically me right now too. I believe we are all so different and depending on our age and lifestyle our needs can change as well.

 

[Kartoffel]

But does a piece of pure cow meat (without any collagen) have much less tryptophan than a chicken breast?

No. The only difference I would call significant is cysteine content. Cow meat only has about 80% of the cysteine chicken contains per 100g of protein. That's good since cysteine is one of the amino acids containing organic sulphur which can increase the production of H2S. Tryptophan isn't that problematic in the context of a normal diet and normal protein sources, but methionine, cysteine, and taurine can be very problematic, if your gut bacteria are out of balance.