Ray Peat Diet / Protocol Name?

[visionofstrength]

I like what visionofstrength calls it, "Peatian".

So Aristotelian, he must be Peatian.

Peatians, the anti-Descartians.

After Newtonian gravity, and Einsteinian space-time, comes Peatian biophysics of consciousness.

I keep having a Peatian sip.*


*Perhaps that was a Freudian slip.

 

[Amazoniac]

I just don't think we are obligated to set ourselves the task here on this forum
of essentially reduplicating every personality proclivity of Dr. Peat.

Only after his views some realized that you can appreciate art and still be scientific.

 

[Philomath]

Man, all this time thinking I was on a modified William Brown diet!?

The diet was limited to sucrose, potato starch, baking powder, sodium chloride, ferric citrate, viosterol, carotene
(vitamin A), orange juice, citric acid, anise oil, liquid petrola
tum and milk practically freed of its fat. The daily protein
intake was derived from 3 quarts of the specially defatted
milk, taken as such, and the cottage cheese made from an
additional quart of the same milk. Sucrose provided the bulk
of the carbohydrate allowance but was supplemented by a
biscuit made from potato starch, skimmed milk, baking pow
der, salt and mineral oil. The mineral oil was added to serve
as shortening and to prevent constipation. Daily supplements
of 10 mg. of ferric citrate, 2.5 mg. of carotene, 0.02 cc. con
centrated viosterol in oil (8000 U.S.P. units vitamin D) and the juice from one-half of a large orange were given to insure
an adequate supply of iron and of vitamins. That the diet was of the extremely 'low-fat,' rather than the 'fat-free,'
type was recognized when the experiment was planned, but experience with crude diets (Burr and Brown, unpublished data) in studies on the rat had shown this to be satisfactory for our purpose. The chief source of fat in the diet was the skimmed milk. Periodic analyses of this milk as specially prepared showed it to have an average fatty acid content of less than 0.08%. This type of fat (butterfat) has been found to be of such low protective or curative value for rats on a fat deficient regimen that the 2 gm. contained in the daily diet of our subject was not considered sufficient to affect seriously the experiment. As potato starch contains only minute traces of fat, the small amount fed was likewise considered unim portant. A uniform consumption of food, providing 2500 calories daily, was maintained throughout the experiment. The sugar was taken in the form of a syrup with citric acid or anise added for flavoring. Frequent small meals were found to be most satisfactory. The syrup was taken at hourly intervals from the time of rising until the time of the evening meal. The orange juice was taken at bed time.

The subject remained clinically well throughout the entire
period of observation, not having even a common cold. There
was never any itching of the skin nor pain. At no time did any of the food ingredients 2 become distasteful. One of the
most noticeable subjective effects of the diet was the marked
absence of fatigue. The somewhat tired feeling usually ex perienced after a day's work in the laboratory disappeared
within a few days from institution of the diet. From child hood the subject had suffered from frequent attacks of mi graine. These had been occurring at intervals of 7 or 8 days immediately before the present experiment was begun. After being 6 weeks on the diet, he observed that these periodic attacks of headache had subsided completely. Strangely enough, they have never recurred.
The complete physical examinations, made 1 week apart just before the experiment was begun, revealed no definite abnormality other then a mild degree of arterial hypertension. was particularly observed that the skin and mucous mem branes were clear and soft. The only demonstrable physical changes resulting from the diet, as determined by regular weekly examinations were a moderate loss of body weight and a decrease in blood pressure. Blood pressure readings, taken when the subject was on a normal diet, varied between 140 to 150 mm. of mercury systolic and 95 to 100 diastolic, values which were regarded as being definitely higher than normal. There was a distinct decrease in the blood pressure after institution of the fat-free diet, the minimum values being obtained 4 to 5 months after the diet was started. Readings at that time remained quite consistently around 130 mm. of mercury systolic and 85 to 88 diastolic. Several months after the low-fat diet had been discontinued, the blood pressure had again risen to its former level.
There was a gradual decrease in weight during the first 3 months from 152 pounds (69.1 kg.) to 138 pounds (62.7 kg.). The weight thereafter remained about the same for nearly 3 months, that is, until the special diet was discontinued. This decrease in body weight in spite of a supposedly adequate caloric intake is of special interest. Unfortunately, however, the exact composition of the weight loss could not be deter mined.
Energy metabolism
The basal metabolic rate before and several months after the experimental period varied between 9 and 12% on four occasions, whereas it was found to be 2% just before the low-fat diet was discontinued. The respiratory quotients showed a distinct alteration. One of the most striking efects of low-fat diet on the rat is the rise in respiratory quotient after a meal. A similar tendency was found in the case of
our human subject. During the sixth month of the experimental diet the folowing respiratory quotients were obtained : 1.03,1.1 and 1.14. To attain these quotients it was necesary to starve the subject overnight and then give him a liberal suply (over 200 calories) of the sugar-milk diet within the course of 2 hours. Two hours later the maximum quotient was reached. Using the same technic the highest quotients reached before and after the low-fat experimental period were 0.9 and 0.97. It would sem, therefore, that in this respect the human subject reacts to a low-fat diet in the same way that the rat does.

[http://jn.nutrition.org/content/16/6/511.full.pdf]

Please, stop wasting your time.

Such_Saturation, I appreciate your concern. Perhaps the Brown/Peat way of eating is nothing new to the circle of people around you, but I can't say the same. Eating and supplementing this way garners MANY questions for me and will, inevitably, generate a call from my kids school nurse someday. That's the world I live in. So rather than stumble over a long explanation of Ray's work and credentials, It would be far easier for me to say something like "it's an uncoupling diet" or a "generative energy protocol" - It's just less complicated. Something simple and concise that will either end the discussion or pique their interest. Trying to explain Dr. Peat's ideas is extremely complex and I don't have the depth of knowledge (yet) to explain it properly.
I don't think we can, or need to define an exact Peat protocol, but maybe a name for what we hope to accomplish.

 

[Amazoniac]

Such_Saturation, I appreciate your concern. Perhaps the Brown/Peat way of eating is nothing new to the circle of people around you, but I can't say the same. Eating and supplementing this way garners MANY questions for me and will, inevitably, generate a call from my kids school nurse someday. That's the world I live in. So rather than stumble over a long explanation of Ray's work and credentials, It would be far easier for me to say something like "it's an uncoupling diet" or a "generative energy protocol" - It's just less complicated. Something simple and concise that will either end the discussion or pique their interest. Trying to explain Dr. Peat's ideas is extremely complex and I don't have the depth of knowledge (yet) to explain it properly.
I don't think we can, or need to define an exact Peat protocol, but maybe a name for what we hope to accomplish.

Hi Philomath!
Then why not just say it is a healthy diet?
I know that as a father you want to show that you take proper care of your kids but that should be enough.

 

[Kasper]

Maybe we should call it Ray Peat's Diet. In the sense of the foods that Ray Peat regularly eats.

 

[Jennifer]

Or we could swap out the RDA for Ray's Dietary Advice (RDA). :)

 

[Such_Saturation]

Such_Saturation, I appreciate your concern. Perhaps the Brown/Peat way of eating is nothing new to the circle of people around you, but I can't say the same. Eating and supplementing this way garners MANY questions for me and will, inevitably, generate a call from my kids school nurse someday. That's the world I live in. So rather than stumble over a long explanation of Ray's work and credentials, It would be far easier for me to say something like "it's an uncoupling diet" or a "generative energy protocol" - It's just less complicated. Something simple and concise that will either end the discussion or pique their interest. Trying to explain Dr. Peat's ideas is extremely complex and I don't have the depth of knowledge (yet) to explain it properly.
I don't think we can, or need to define an exact Peat protocol, but maybe a name for what we hope to accomplish.

Good point! You are very brave if you ask your kids to follow something like this in a school environment (as opposed to something with a name like Atkins which wouldn't raise any eyebrows). Many of these foods are "old-fashioned" so perhaps that's a good way to approach questions. I still think "peatatarian" is an abomination

 

[visionofstrength]

Eating and supplementing this way garners MANY questions for me and will, inevitably, generate a call from my kids school nurse someday. That's the world I live in. So rather than stumble over a long explanation of Ray's work and credentials, It would be far easier for me to say something like "it's an uncoupling diet" or a "generative energy protocol" - It's just less complicated.

From a marketing perspective, the strategy would be to name a "protocol" for whatever "keyword" the audience is interested in.

For example, if an adult or child has asthma, it would be the asthma protocol. ADHD, the ADHD protocol. Diabetes, the diabetes protocol. If you don't have a diagnosis of some kind, it could just be pretty general, such as the obesity protocol or, in Danny Roddy's case, the hairloss protocol.

The difference among these protocols would (I think) be negligible in practice, but context is everything.

I think a good general keyword for school might be the "scholar citizen" protocol, since this hits both indoctrination goals: rote memorization and conformity. When it comes to authoritarian bureaucrats, such as at schools or hospitals, I agree, Philomath -- it gets much more dangerous. You may get a question about what authority the protocol comes from. At that point, it becomes a slippery slope, and the more you say, the more you leave yourself open for attack. Going too far down that road could get you a visit from social services, looking to take your child away.

The one thing that (legally) should shut bureaucrats down is to say that the authority is a religious belief. Other than that, you may need an authority like a medical doctor, not a Ph. D. like Ray Peat. I am working on trying to get one or more medical doctors (MDs) to endorse the Peatian "protocol" at least in their own medical specialty, but it's taking me longer than I had hoped.

If anyone knows of any medical doctors who might be open to giving an "MD endorsement" in their specialty please let me know?

One last thought, for those seeking true learning or healthcare, I favor home schooling, and staying clear of hospitals, for the very reason you mention, Philomath: authoritarian bureaucrats.

NB: When Peat says there is no such thing as a Peatian protocol, he means that as an anti-authoritarian battle cry! He is urging us all, resist! And rather than follow some authoritarian brainwashing, Peat hopes you will develop your own protocol customized to your own needs, or your child's.

 

[narouz]

I don't think we can, or need to define an exact Peat protocol, but maybe a name for what we hope to accomplish.

Because we're dealing with this term here,
thought I'd post a definition:

protocol
A detailed plan of a scientific or medical experiment, treatment, or procedure

(I would note that there are many different definitions at Merriam-Webster.
This is the one applying to the field of science.
If you go to that dictionary site and check out the other definitions,
regarding governmental procedure, etiquette, etc,
you will note an emphasis on formality, correctness, proper-ness, etc.
Perhaps those are the denotations/connotations Peat had in mind
when he sarcastically made the comments Kasper and I referred to.)

To my mind,
there really isn't a Peat Protocol--
in the sense of the scientific definition above.

Now...Peat-derived diet...another story.
We have rough ratios discussed by Peat.
We have general types of foods (fats, starches, fibers, proteins, etc)
noted as good or bad or in-between.
We have specific foods noted, including many specific foods on Peat's own personal diet.

So...plenty of workpoints to synthesize and represent a relatively concise
Peat-derived diet or diets.
I say diets because
1. Peat gives some options,
for instance a greens or greens&meat option I've recently been exploring.
2. it might be good to represent tiers of a Peat-derived diet/s:
optimal Peat, good Peat, decent Peat, crappy Peat, etc...

 

[narouz]

From a marketing perspective, the strategy would be to name a "protocol" for whatever "keyword" the audience is interested in.

Truncating your longer post, VoS...sorry.
But just wanted to make an important (IMO) point about a "marketing perspective."

That is one of the reasons I've always felt it would be a good thing
for the forum to articulate, represent a concise summary of a Peat-derived diet.
We are not motivated by the market.
At least, speaking for myself, I am not.

So, we all know how Peat sees "marketing" as a corrupting/distorting force.
In keeping with that general orientation,
I think it would be a great thing for us to render a "pure" representation.

 

[visionofstrength]

From a marketing perspective, the strategy would be to name a "protocol" for whatever "keyword" the audience is interested in.

We are not motivated by the market.
At least, speaking for myself, I am not.

Do I buy food? Health care supplements? Health care? Then my choice of things that (I think) I can afford is likely motivated by the market. I can't help it, unless maybe I have an excess of money (which I don't).

Perhaps if I could be a survivalist living on a homestead transacting with my neighbors on non-fiat money terms maybe using gold or barter. I wish I could be like that. I think I might be influenced by the market far less!

So, we all know how Peat sees "marketing" as a corrupting/distorting force.
In keeping with that general orientation,

You raise an important point: Peat's attack on marketing comes from the distortions created by so-called experts (or authoritarians). Again, it is an anti-authoritarian battle-cry! Resist the brainwashing of the market or try!

I don't think Peat means to tie our hands or his, or restrict us or him in any way from describing our Peatian efforts, for example, by using performance-based marketing strategies whose advantage is they can be proven to work (or not).

I don't know this, though. I've often thought about asking him:
Is marketing itself evil? Or is it the authoritarian purpose of the marketeer?

 

[visionofstrength]

From a marketing perspective, the strategy would be to name a "protocol" for whatever "keyword" the audience is interested in.

Truncating your longer post, VoS...sorry.
But just wanted to make an important (IMO) point about a "marketing perspective."

That is one of the reasons I've always felt it would be a good thing
for the forum to articulate, represent a concise summary of a Peat-derived diet.

I think Peat has pretty well described what the framework for the Peatian protocol is, especially in his newsletters.*

I've tried to elaborate on it a little in some of my posts, to make it more of a very simple how-to. It's really remarkably easy to do, and if you are tracking your exhaled CO2 you can see for yourself that it really does work!

What remains now is for each of us to find the dosing and frequency of the various Peatian components that might work for each of us, in our own customized protocol, which we are always developing and tweaking. But that customization is not generalized knowledge that needs to be described for others in the framework, or the how-to (except maybe as an example). Because it will be different and customized for each of us.

*If you don't subscribe to Peat's newsletters, they are a great value.

 

[narouz]

I don't think Peat means to tie our hands or his, or restrict us or him in any way from describing our Peatian efforts, for example, by using performance-based marketing strategies whose advantage is they can be proven to work (or not).

I don't know this, though. I've often thought about asking him:
Is marketing itself evil? Or is it the authoritarian purpose of the marketeer?

VoS-
I wouldn't hold my breath for Peat's blessings
concerning the "performance-based marketing strategies."

And, the more I think on it, it is the word "protocol"--
its denotations and connotations--
that seem to set Peat off
and to symbolize something bad.

In general though,
I agree that there is no reason all marketing will inherently have to be evil.
But...it often does seem to be.
Peat surely sees it that way.

 

[visionofstrength]

VoS-
I wouldn't hold my breath for Peat's blessings
concerning the "performance-based marketing strategies."

And, the more I think on it, it is the word "protocol"--
its denotations and connotations--
that seem to set Peat off
and to symbolize something bad.

In general though,
I agree that there is no reason all marketing will inherently have to be evil.
But...it often does seem to be.
Peat surely sees it that way.

Are you being fair to Peat? Here's what he says about marketing on his home page:

I think only a new perspective on the nature of living matter will make it possible to properly take advantage of the multitude of practical and therapeutic effects of the various life-supporting substances--pregnenolone, progesterone, thyroid hormone, and coconut oil in particular.

"Marketing" of these as products, without understanding just what they do and why they do it, seems to be adding confusion, rather than understanding, as hundreds of people sell their misconceptions with their products. The very concept of "marketing" is at odds with the real nature of these materials, which has to do with the protection and expansion of our nature and potential. A distorted idea of human nature is sold when people are treated as "the market."

What about that suggests he would be opposed to performance-based marketing strategies? By that I mean, for example, looking at results from Google Adwords campaigns to see which ads lead to subscribers or sales, and then optimizing for more?

I agree that he might reasonably object to using specific marketing language that he disagreed with. Who wouldn't? But I can't imagine he would forbid a direct quotation from his book or articles being shown in an ad inserted into search results when people search for Peatian topics, with a link to read more?

I mean, is that even something we would need to ask him?

 

[narouz]

VoS-
I wouldn't hold my breath for Peat's blessings
concerning the "performance-based marketing strategies."

And, the more I think on it, it is the word "protocol"--
its denotations and connotations--
that seem to set Peat off
and to symbolize something bad.

In general though,
I agree that there is no reason all marketing will inherently have to be evil.
But...it often does seem to be.
Peat surely sees it that way.

Are you being fair to Peat? Here's what he says about marketing on his home page:

I think only a new perspective on the nature of living matter will make it possible to properly take advantage of the multitude of practical and therapeutic effects of the various life-supporting substances--pregnenolone, progesterone, thyroid hormone, and coconut oil in particular.

"Marketing" of these as products, without understanding just what they do and why they do it, seems to be adding confusion, rather than understanding, as hundreds of people sell their misconceptions with their products. The very concept of "marketing" is at odds with the real nature of these materials, which has to do with the protection and expansion of our nature and potential. A distorted idea of human nature is sold when people are treated as "the market."

What about that suggests he would be opposed to performance-based marketing strategies? By that I mean, for example, looking at results from Google Adwords campaigns to see which ads lead to subscribers or sales, and then optimizing for more?

I agree that he might reasonably object to using specific marketing language that he disagreed with. Who wouldn't? But I can't imagine he would forbid a direct quotation from his book or articles being shown in an ad inserted into search results when people search for Peatian topics, with a link to read more?

I mean, is that even something we would need to ask him?

VoS-
Never say never, I guess.
But I just don't see Peat getting into marketing schemes.

I'll have to leave that up to you.
My plate is full just making the case that a Peat-derived diet exists,
and that it would be a good thing for the forum to pursue.

The Peat Protocol...I'll have to let you handle that too.
For me, understanding his dietary ideas, light, correct exercise...
those are the central Peat things.
After that, when I try to think of a "Peat protocol,"
it really does just become a generalized approach like some have described above:
be curious, be open, keep learning, don't think problems are impossible...etc...

 

[pboy]

an actual protocol would involve prescribing a daily routine, and exact amounts and things, even timings, with light and other plans also, it might even involve moving to a different location. At that point it wouldn't be from Peat, it would be something someone made up based on Peat's work. He gives dietary advice but never gets far into (or even into) an actual protocol. It would be interesting if someone here made one up and people actually followed it and discussed results...im sure though we all have our own protocol, all based on Peats work, and I think that's how he likes it...where we all think, act, and explore within a certain boundary but not under a strict protocol. It causes people to wire their brain through thinking, analyzing, and self experimentation and results first hand

 

[narouz]

an actual protocol would involve prescribing a daily routine, and exact amounts and things, even timings, with light and other plans also, it might even involve moving to a different location. At that point it wouldn't be from Peat, it would be something someone made up based on Peat's work. He gives dietary advice but never gets far into (or even into) an actual protocol. It would be interesting if someone here made one up and people actually followed it and discussed results...im sure though we all have our own protocol, all based on Peats work, and I think that's how he likes it...where we all think, act, and explore within a certain boundary but not under a strict protocol. It causes people to wire their brain through thinking, analyzing, and self experimentation and results first hand

Yeah.
Not saying someone couldn't legitimately come up with a helpful protocol
inspired by Peat ideas.
But Peat doesn't, to my knowledge, lay protocolish things out himself.

With his diet ideas, he puts plenty on the table in terms of ratios and ingredients and
types of foods and specific foods...
There's a lot of go on there.
Not much creation; a lot of synthesis.
With a Peat "protocol": a lot of invention needed....

 

[visionofstrength]

My plate is full just making the case that a Peat-derived diet exists,
and that it would be a good thing for the forum to pursue.

I hope this helps, narouz....

Here are Ray Peat's suggested daily allowances --- which Jennifer has coined (earlier in this thread) as the RDA (Ray's Daily Allowances) --- for the various Peatian foods and supplements, gathered mostly from email exchanges.

If you're gaining weight as bodyfat, or having other metabolic issues, just ask yourself, are you getting Ray's Daily Allowances?!!

UNCOUPLERS

• Thyroid: 40 mcg T4/10 mcg T3 once a day; 3 mcg T3 every few hours. Chew it up before swallowing.
  
  Coffee: equivalent of 18 cups regular strength, 4.5 cups at 4x strength
  
  Aspirin: 1 gram either in morning OR at bedtime, .5 grams every four hours through the day
  
  Sleep: 8-8.5 hours, sound without panic, nightmares, or frequent waking
  
  Red light: 750 watts clear flood incandescent, as needed depending on season for a total of 15 hours daylight.
  
  CO2/bicarbonate: supplement with breathing or ingestion as needed, until 5-6% in exhaled breath;

MINERALS

• Magnesium: 2 grams spread over the course of the day, to bowel tolerance, preferably in milk (27 mg per cup) , coffee (7 mg per cup) or magnesium bicarbonate (~50 mg per ounce).
  
  Calcium: 5 grams spread over the course of the day, to bowel tolerance, preferably in milk (305 mg per cup) or calcium bicarbonate (~35 mg per ounce).
  
  Sodium: salt food generously to taste
  
  Potassium: one quart of orange juice.

PROTECTIVE STEROIDS

• Progesterone: men - one drop men (3 mg); women - three drops (10 mg). frequency: as needed to resolve symptoms, provided thyroid (and for men DHEA/testosterone) is also supplemented in balance.
  
  DHEA/testosterone: men - trace amount (5 mg) mixed with drop of progesterone; frequency: every few hours as needed to resolve symptoms (i.e., low testosterone).

NAD+/NADH (anti-lipolytic)

• Niacinamide: 250 mg every few hours
  
  Aspirin: see above, uncouplers.

GSH/GSSG (Tissue oxidation)

• Thiamine: 300 mg every few hours
  
  DMSO/MSM: if needed for therapeutic purposes
  
  Methylene blue: suggested dosage not yet referenced in Peat's email. Studies say 2 mg/kg of bodyweight is safe.

FAT

• IMPORTANT: 0-2% unsaturated fat!!!
  
  Coconut/MCT oil: a teaspoon several times throughout the day, depending on activity and energy requirements.
  
  Egg yolks: for fat soluble nutrients, one or two, depending on bodyweight
  
  Liver: for fat soluble nutrients, once a week, or every few days, depending on bodyweight

PROTEIN

• 2-3g/kg of body weight, divided into doses every two hours.* More if very active.
  
  Gelatin: 6 tablespoons a day (42 grams protein)
  
  Nonfat milk/cottage cheese: the rest
  
  Potato juice: if digestion is impaired.
  
  Very lean meat with cartilage intact: occasionally.

SUGAR

• At least equal to protein intake. More if high cortisol or adrenaline.
  
  Orange juice: 1 liter per 70 kg of bodyweight; ripe, no pulp.
  
  Nonfat milk (lactose) or fruit sugar (fructose): the rest

VITAMINS

• A: 5,000 IU; increase as needed if high stress
  
  D: 1,000 IU; in 5:1 proportion to Vitamin A.
  
  E: 100 mg/70 kg bodyweight, increasing with age when iron stores increase [Edit per johns74: can in theory decrease to 0 when PUFAs and iron are minimal]
  
  K2: 15-45 drops depending on liver function.

TRACE MINERALS

• A few oysters once a week, or scallops.

ENDOTOXINS

• Raw carrot; 1 per day, grated and then rinsed chewed well, with salt and coconut oil.
  
  Activated charcoal: if digestive upset, 1/4 cup.

*See haidut's posts on protein dosing:
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=4085&p=49284
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=4099&p=49517

 

[johns74]

But then he says to watch out for too high phosporus/calcium ratios and too much cysteine/methionine and too little glycine.

Well then you end up with only bone broth from beef or lamb with lots of gelatin. Or a beef/lamb steak with added gelatin and calcium.

Wrong, you can add a little cheese, or if you don't have issues with it, mashed potatoes, or even cooked veggies high in calcium, and you fix the calcium/phosphorus ratio. See, you have three options there. 1 for the most strict, 2 for the not so strict.

Trying to have the right calcium phosphorus ratio all the time is more strict than people will need. The fact that Peat explains that having a good calcium phosphorus ratio is beneficial doesn't imply you should go nuts and have such ratio in every single meal. That's crazy territory, unless you do it for a specific disease, or if it takes you very little effort.

 

[johns74]

but when you ask him which food to eat or not to eat, he comes with the most restricted list any dieterian has ever come up with.

Right, because he doesn't know you and probably makes a recommendation of what is likely to work for the sickest individual. But you have to think a bit and know the purpose of a recommendation and the reasons why some foods are just 'ok', and if those issues don't apply to you, eat them. Don't follow Peat's recommendation for the sickest individual if you aren't.