Ray On Anxiety / Neurosteroids

[Peater]

How would you guys suggest dealing with severe anxiety caused by both life events and let's say loss or separation anxiety? Lithium orotate, stablon, a GABA supplement and skullcap don't really touch it. I understand there are mental issues of course but I also have a business to run and a life to try and live in the meantime :)

 

[CLASH]

@brix
What source are you using for your saturated fats?

@Constatine
Ironically for me the fat is what seemed to alleviate my intestinal issues. I think the bacterial translocation from the fat as well as the lipid rafting for the endotoxin may be a beneficial effect. I think the fat may actually be serving to detoxify the endotoxoin, strengthen the intestinal lining and clear the intestine of excess bacteria, particularly the small intestine. The translocation of the bacteria from the fat may actually be bringing the bacteria to be disposed of by the immune/ lymphatic system while allowing for the proper sampling of the intestinal lumen. I think many people are actually developing SIBO because they are attempting to eat high starch low fat diets that are high in raw vegetables, nuts, seeds etc. (you know because sugar is bad cuz fructose, and saturated fat is bad cuz heart disease...).

If the bacterial translocation was such a pathological occurence I dont think that there would be such success for all these people with autoimmune diseases using high fat paleo diets to cure the disease. The closest hypothetical etiology we have for autoimmune disease seems to be some type of latent gut infection. If this is actually the cause and bacterial translocation from saturated fat was actually pathological I would think that it would make autoimmunity much worse for these people. Furthermore, the fat prefered for the production of milk seems to be saturated and monounsaturated fats. As far as I’m aware the babies gut is much more permeable and much more fragile compared to the adult. In this situation, if saturated fat induced translocation of endotoxin and bacteria was so pathological it would seem that putting it milk would be counterproductive. Lastly, the body seems to prefer creating and storing saturated fat and monounsaturated fat, I know this is a bit seperate from actually ingesting the fat but in the overall context I think this is indicative of the importance of these fats.

 

[shine]

How would you guys suggest dealing with severe anxiety caused by both life events and let's say loss or separation anxiety? Lithium orotate, stablon, a GABA supplement and skullcap don't really touch it. I understand there are mental issues of course but I also have a business to run and a life to try and live in the meantime :)

Pregnenolone can be used for feelings of loneliness in elderly people, so it might also help with separation anxiety. I think it gives you a feeling of "whatever happens in my life, I will be able to deal with it".

 

[shine]

Could you share your recipe for the sorghum bread please

250g sorghum flour
250g whole spelt flour
1 pack instant yeast or baking powder
3 tbsp dried chives
2 tsp sea salt
add small amounts of water while mixing with hand mixer until dough becomes like a sticky ball

Put it in a baking form (use baking paper and butter) and keep it in a pre-heated oven at 180-200°C for 30mins, then take it out of the baking form, remove baking paper from the sides using scissors and let it bake for another 20mins at 150°C.

 

[brix]

@CLASH for sat fats, I eat coconut oil, butter, beef. Probably around 50-60g.

 

[CLASH]

@brix
I didnt feel better until I hit 120g of total fat from beef tallow. I think the long chain saturated fatty acids have a different effects than short or medium chains. Coconut for me is an entirely different food than beef tallow. I used to use butter however I stopped due to issues with dairy, i suspected for butter it was related to the hormone content. For other forms of dairy i definetly had issues with casein.

 

[LUH 3417]

@waldenpond
I had pretty severe hyperhidrosis, especially in social situations. My mind would function fine but my body would tense up ridiculously and I would sweat profusely. It was as if my body was directing all its energy substrate to my brain as opposed to my body.

Orange juice and a low fat diet made these symptoms multiple times worse.

Getting my fat up to around 40-50% of my calories almost completely eliminated these symptoms. Eating adequate fiber from specific fruits and veg pretty much eliminated the rest.

The main situation that triggers sweating and tension now is if I havent eaten in around 5 hours and I was under significant stress (I work as a nurse so this situation happens in the hospital). The sweating occurs for around 20 minutes or so as my body switches over into the adaptive hormones and then once the adaptive hormones fully switch over I stabilize. Once stabilizing I can last for around another 12 hours or so and then I start to get cold hands and feet and become a bit irritable.

I think with low fat, your body utilizes adrenaline to pull fat from body stores because fat isnt being ingested. As cortisol liberates sugars for its general adaptive function I think adrenaline liberates fats. I also think for many people the process of converting ingested sugar to fat and then liberating that fat from stores is a bit inefficient for the body and stressful as it upregulates the adrenergic system to liberate said fats. I think that perhaps the northern “species” of human require more fats based on thier ancestral environments than the equatorial species.

I have hyperhidrosis too and it is accompanied by severe muscle tension when I get it in social situations. It’s like I become stiff. Interestingly last night I went to an event and started sweating profusely on the car ride there. When I got there I ate a lot of buttered bread and the sweating and muscle tension subsided soon after.

 

[CLASH]

@pinacolada
I used to have the exact same issue until I increased my fat intake. My muscles would completely contract and I would sweat profusely from under my arms. A few girls I know also had hyperhidrosis, one from her hands, the other from under her arms. Their libido was poor, they had issues during sex, they had cold hands and feet, they had pretty significant anxiety and they had low energy. One was losing hair. When they increased thier fat intake and eliminated some of the problematic foods all these issues resolved for them.

I have stated this consistently on the forum but almost every large mammal I can find has a fat intake at around 40-50% of calories whether met by direct ingestions of fats or by fermentation of fiber to fats. I think many of us are actually at a fat deficiency as the fat seems to spare glucose/ fructose for their more important functions so that the body doesnt have to convert them to fat and then liberate them from fatty tissues via adrenaline. I think the anxiety, hyperhidrosis, and muscle tension is due to an energy deficit in the musculature caused by a lack of fatty acids (It is known that besides times of intense physical exertion the muscles happen to run on fatty acids. Glucose is used in musculature during “glycolytic” activity such as during sprinting, powerlifting and bodybuilding). This deficit leads to the body using adrenaline to release fat from stores (this is similar to how glucagon and cortisol releases glucose in a deficit, parathyroid hormone releases calcium, and aldosterone functions to conserve minerals; all the adaptive hormones function to provide some neccesary element when the body is in some type of deficit atleast as far as I can see from a basic level of understanding). The upregulated adrenaline causes the anxiety, hyperhidrosis, cold hands and cold feet.

When i wasnt eating enough fat, by the end of my 12-13 hour shift as a nurse my muscles in my core that function in posture would completely contract and become tight. However once I added fat I was able to remain loose and relaxed for the most part. I also stayed warmer longer throughout the shift despite the emf, stress, the fact that its night and the cold temps. Also, my mental function has vastly improved with increased fat intake.

Also if your worried about gaining weight, as I told brix I’m not sure I would worry. I actually lost weight when going higher fat, specifically around my abdomen. I’m at around 200g per day and havent gained any weight. If your worried perhaps do an experiment of titrating fat up in 20-30g/day increments based on feel. I did this myself in 3 day blocks until i felt diminishing returns. As mentioned above i still eat about 300-400g of fruit/fruit juice/ honey sugars in conjunction with the fat.

 

[A.R]

@pinacolada
I used to have the exact same issue until I increased my fat intake. My muscles would completely contract and I would sweat profusely from under my arms. A few girls I know also had hyperhidrosis, one from her hands, the other from under her arms. Their libido was poor, they had issues during sex, they had cold hands and feet, they had pretty significant anxiety and they had low energy. One was losing hair. When they increased thier fat intake and eliminated some of the problematic foods all these issues resolved for them.

I have stated this consistently on the forum but almost every large mammal I can find has a fat intake at around 40-50% of calories whether met by direct ingestions of fats or by fermentation of fiber to fats. I think many of us are actually at a fat deficiency as the fat seems to spare glucose/ fructose for their more important functions so that the body doesnt have to convert them to fat and then liberate them from fatty tissues via adrenaline. I think the anxiety, hyperhidrosis, and muscle tension is due to an energy deficit in the musculature caused by a lack of fatty acids (It is known that besides times of intense physical exertion the muscles happen to run on fatty acids. Glucose is used in musculature during “glycolytic” activity such as during sprinting, powerlifting and bodybuilding). This deficit leads to the body using adrenaline to release fat from stores (this is similar to how glucagon and cortisol releases glucose in a deficit, parathyroid hormone releases calcium, and aldosterone functions to conserve minerals; all the adaptive hormones function to provide some neccesary element when the body is in some type of deficit atleast as far as I can see from a basic level of understanding). The upregulated adrenaline causes the anxiety, hyperhidrosis, cold hands and cold feet.

When i wasnt eating enough fat, by the end of my 12-13 hour shift as a nurse my muscles in my core that function in posture would completely contract and become tight. However once I added fat I was able to remain loose and relaxed for the most part. I also stayed warmer longer throughout the shift despite the emf, stress, the fact that its night and the cold temps. Also, my mental function has vastly improved with increased fat intake.

Also if your worried about gaining weight, as I told brix I’m not sure I would worry. I actually lost weight when going higher fat, specifically around my abdomen. I’m at around 200g per day and havent gained any weight. If your worried perhaps do an experiment of titrating fat up in 20-30g/day increments based on feel. I did this myself in 3 day blocks until i felt diminishing returns. As mentioned above i still eat about 300-400g of fruit/fruit juice/ honey sugars in conjunction with the fat.

Very interesting
Thanks for that

 

[Constatine]

@brix
What source are you using for your saturated fats?

@Constatine
Ironically for me the fat is what seemed to alleviate my intestinal issues. I think the bacterial translocation from the fat as well as the lipid rafting for the endotoxin may be a beneficial effect. I think the fat may actually be serving to detoxify the endotoxoin, strengthen the intestinal lining and clear the intestine of excess bacteria, particularly the small intestine. The translocation of the bacteria from the fat may actually be bringing the bacteria to be disposed of by the immune/ lymphatic system while allowing for the proper sampling of the intestinal lumen. I think many people are actually developing SIBO because they are attempting to eat high starch low fat diets that are high in raw vegetables, nuts, seeds etc. (you know because sugar is bad cuz fructose, and saturated fat is bad cuz heart disease...).

If the bacterial translocation was such a pathological occurence I dont think that there would be such success for all these people with autoimmune diseases using high fat paleo diets to cure the disease. The closest hypothetical etiology we have for autoimmune disease seems to be some type of latent gut infection. If this is actually the cause and bacterial translocation from saturated fat was actually pathological I would think that it would make autoimmunity much worse for these people. Furthermore, the fat prefered for the production of milk seems to be saturated and monounsaturated fats. As far as I’m aware the babies gut is much more permeable and much more fragile compared to the adult. In this situation, if saturated fat induced translocation of endotoxin and bacteria was so pathological it would seem that putting it milk would be counterproductive. Lastly, the body seems to prefer creating and storing saturated fat and monounsaturated fat, I know this is a bit seperate from actually ingesting the fat but in the overall context I think this is indicative of the importance of these fats.

Here is a study that might support what you are saying: https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpendo.00314.2011?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub=pubmed. I do think different saturated fats act differently in the intestines but this is still pretty interesting.

 

[sladerunner69]

I recently asked Ray about non-psychiatric treatments for anxiety, and his answer was helpful, but not surprising: "I’ve seen increased sugar, and/or calcium, and/or magnesium, and/or vitamin D, and/or vitamin B6, and/or other B vitamins, and/or pregnenolone, thyroid, progesterone, testosterone, relieve it. Sometimes a beta-blocker like propranolol gives immediate relief."

Has anyone ever used pregnenolone and/or progesterone in a direct attempt to combat severe anxiety?

Some have suggested that SSRIs work* by temporarily redressing neurosteroid deficiencies (please forgive me if this makes no technical sense). Would a supplement of pregenolone or progestorone achieve the same end?

*to the extent that they can be considered to work at all.

Progesterone seems to be the most effective anxiety reducer for me. Caffiene gives me energy and good mood, but does also increase anxiety. Same with thyroid, but to a lesser extent. Progesterone is good for the end of the day, an evening at home, when it's time to settle in. I have noticed that too much progesterone has an anti-androgenic effect, and can lower motivation and make me *too* relaxed.

 

[sweetpeat]

@brix
I didnt feel better until I hit 120g of total fat from beef tallow. I think the long chain saturated fatty acids have a different effects than short or medium chains. Coconut for me is an entirely different food than beef tallow. I used to use butter however I stopped due to issues with dairy, i suspected for butter it was related to the hormone content. For other forms of dairy i definetly had issues with casein.

I'm curious how you use the beef tallow. Or where do you even get it. You cook with it? Or use it in place of butter on bread since you're not using butter? Or maybe you don't eat bread either.... Pardon my ignorance lol
And I agree with you about fat in the diet btw. It's very hard for me to reach adequate calories without enough fat and have found that inadequate calorie consumption feeds into anxiety.

 

[CLASH]

@sweetpeat
Just saw this now, I dont get the email updates from the forum for some reason.

I cook my seafood and beef in beef tallow. So as an example i’ll cook a 1lb package of ground meat 85/15 and I’ll add around 100g-120g of beef tallow to it and 40g of coconut oil. Thats 4 meals for me, atleast of protein.

I dont eat any bread, grains or starches so no tallow on my bread :) although potatoes or yams fried in beef tallow to make fries is absolutely amazing... Also, using the tallow in stews and sauces is pretty tasty.

You can buy it from US wellness meats if your in the US. Just google the name. If your in europe perhaps ask your local butcher.

 

[REOSIRENS]

Glycine shouts down anxiety and rumination(obsessive thoughts) ...you will have great results if you pair with lithium
In other words, anxiety is connected to hypoglycemia(low glucose high cortisol and adrenaline) and hyperglycemia(very high blood sugar levels causing high parathyroid).
You must balance blood sugar levels... and young hormones have a big role in creating a healthy physiological environment for glucose metabolism

 

[golder]

Interesting pairing glycine with lithium. I'll try that. Could you indicate what doses you have had success with? 2g glycine with 5mg lithium orotate?

 

[sweetpeat]

@sweetpeat
Just saw this now, I dont get the email updates from the forum for some reason.

I cook my seafood and beef in beef tallow. So as an example i’ll cook a 1lb package of ground meat 85/15 and I’ll add around 100g-120g of beef tallow to it and 40g of coconut oil. Thats 4 meals for me, atleast of protein.

I dont eat any bread, grains or starches so no tallow on my bread :) although potatoes or yams fried in beef tallow to make fries is absolutely amazing... Also, using the tallow in stews and sauces is pretty tasty.

You can buy it from US wellness meats if your in the US. Just google the name. If your in europe perhaps ask your local butcher.

Thank you for explaining. I get a good portion of my fat from dairy, but I'm always on the lookout for tasty food ideas. Potatoes fried in tallow do sound yummy.
I think the fat drained from ground beef is a tallow-ish substance? Saving it would be an easy and cheap way to experiment with it. I've been throwing it away all these years because my husband is averse to animal fat. But I remember my grandmother used to save bacon fat and cook with it. Similar idea, I guess.

@waldenpond Sorry for the off-topic rambling. Although, comfort food might be considered anti-anxiety

 

[CLASH]

@sweetpeat
Yes that is tallow. My grandmother who lived to 98 lived on bacon fat, sweet tea, chicken cooked in bacon fat, rice and milk. She’d cook bacon on the weekends and save the fat.

If your interested in fats you might like this article:
Part Five: Cholesterol, Leaky Gut, Endotoxemia and Heart Disease

Edit: she also occasionally ate collards cooked with bacon/ bacon fat

 

[HeartGold]

I did not realize how anxious I was until I took 50mg pregnenolone.
I haven't been anxious since then.
I am still taking 50mg daily.

I also really like to eat sorghum (I make my own sorghum bread) shortly after it. It contains 5alpha-reductase and I can actually feel the enhanced conversion to allopregnanolone, or a more pronounced anti-anxiety/anti-depressive effect.

What also works really well is StressNon topically, 2 drops is enough to relieve any anxiety.

I use Pregnenolone 50mg every few days for 2 weeks, I even tried a few times 100mg and I feel amazing, my brain and body feels so calm.

Are you still taking 50mg daily?

 

[golder]

I use Pregnenolone 50mg every few days for 2 weeks, I even tried a few times 100mg and I feel amazing, my brain and body feels so calm.

Are you still taking 50mg daily?

Which brand of preg do you use out of curiosity? Thanks.

 

[Frankdee20]

VITAMIN B6 AS P5P WAS THE ABSOLUTE GREATEST ANTIDEPRESSANT EFFECT FROM ANY SUPPLEMENT IVE EVER DISCERNED, NOT SURE IF THIS WAS DUE TO THE GLUTAMIC ACID DECARBOXYLASE INHIBITION, THE CONVERSION OF AMINOS TO CETACHOLAMINES, ETC; BUT IT WAS IMMEDIATE IN EFFECT