Ray Changed Mind On Sardines?

[cyclops]

I was reading an older book by Peat, "Nutrition for Women" and I found it interesting that he recommends Sardines in that book.

He also talks about avoiding PUFA in the book. I wonder why over the year things like Eggs and Oysters are still recommended, but he says Sardines are no longer good. I bet they're higher in PUFA then eggs and oysters, but still, I wonder why he recommended them back then. Any ideas?

 

[John Frusciante]

Can you post the exact part in which he recommended sardines?
He's become more selective and accurate lately, so he recommends oysters because they have the highest nutrients/PUFAs ratio. Sardines might contain useful stuff but they have much more PUFAs than oysters. Squid and shrimps, I perceive, are "tier 2" choices.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Maybe the salt and a bunch of minerals. I haven't read that book but by what I've heard I bet he hadn't read about PUFA at the time he wrote it.

 

[Milky]

Sardines are really high in calcium, have excellent protein, and are pretty much the lowest in mercury/toxins, PUFA be damned.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

No. The only fish he thinks are okay are "low fat" tropical fish like sole/tilapia and others like cod but even those aren't truly low pufa, they are just supposed to be lower than others. He likes shellfish better than finfish. He changed on a lot of things from NFW like cereal, toast, tuna, salad, chicken breast, spinach, and broccoli on page 90.

There are foods that he thinks are okay and can be useful for people but doesn't personally consume them or not often like greens and potatoes.

"A high fiber diet also lowers the risk of bowel cancer" - page 85.

"The ocean isn't such a great clean food source anymore.."

From 8/20/14 - "The details vary slightly according to what's available. Daily, milk, fruit (mainly orange juice), eggs, butter, cheese, and coffee. As available, liver, shrimp, squid, oysters, cod, sole, ox-tail soup, chicharrones (puffed pork rind), sapotas, pawpaws, cherimoyas, guanabanas, guavas, carrots, bamboo shoots, small turnips, corundas.."

.

 

[Milky]

"The ocean isn't such a great clean food source anymore.."

From 8/20/14 - "The details vary slightly according to what's available. Daily, milk, fruit (mainly orange juice), eggs, butter, cheese, and coffee. As available, liver, shrimp, squid, oysters, cod, sole, ox-tail soup, chicharrones (puffed pork rind), sapotas, pawpaws, cherimoyas, guanabanas, guavas, carrots, bamboo shoots, small turnips, corundas.."

I think there's a world of difference between "the ocean isn't such a great clean food source" and a statement like "no one should ever eat seafood". It's still way better than eating processed crap. Same with frozen veggies, etc.

Also Ray's diet is Ray's diet. It's not mine, it's not yours (unless you like being a copycat), it's just his. I think it's annoying people even ask him questions like that, bugging him about what he eats, how he lives, etc. That's exactly what guru fanatics do. It can be useful info for sure, to know what someone else does and try to make connections of how things work for them and so forth, but ultimately one has to figure out what works best for them and it's almost never going to be the exact same thing that works for someone else.

I love Ray Peat's writings and the person he seems to be, but still don't understand the insistence on throwing down his quotes like the be-all/end-all of how to eat and live. Is it possible for us to be more open minded about this?

 

[cyclops]

sole/tilapia

Are sole and tilapia the same things? or very similar? I had only heard sol and cod recommended before. Tilapia would give me another option.

 

[Kyle M]

Also Ray's diet is Ray's diet.

The guy wrote a book called "Nutrition for Women." Talking about that isn't talking about his personal diet...

 

[Milky]

The guy wrote a book called "Nutrition for Women." Talking about that isn't talking about his personal diet...

I responded to Westside quoting Ray from 8/20/14 talking about his own personal diet.

 

[Lilac]

Are sole and tilapia the same things? or very similar?

Tilapia is usually (always?) farmed and from Asia. I don't eat it.

 

[Dobbler]

No. The only fish he thinks are okay are "low fat" tropical fish like sole/tilapia and others like cod but even those aren't truly low pufa, they are just supposed to be lower than others. He likes shellfish better than finfish. He changed on a lot of things from NFW like cereal, toast, tuna, salad, chicken breast, spinach, and broccoli on page 90.

There are foods that he thinks are okay and can be useful for people but doesn't personally consume them or not often like greens and potatoes.

"A high fiber diet also lowers the risk of bowel cancer" - page 85.

"The ocean isn't such a great clean food source anymore.."

From 8/20/14 - "The details vary slightly according to what's available. Daily, milk, fruit (mainly orange juice), eggs, butter, cheese, and coffee. As available, liver, shrimp, squid, oysters, cod, sole, ox-tail soup, chicharrones (puffed pork rind), sapotas, pawpaws, cherimoyas, guanabanas, guavas, carrots, bamboo shoots, small turnips, corundas.."

.

It saddens me that organic beef is not on that list while it has less PUFA than half of those foods. Does it really have so much more cysteine and tryptophan than those seafood and eggs etc..

 

[aguilaroja]

I was reading an older book by Peat, "Nutrition for Women" ... he recommends Sardines in that book.
He also talks about avoiding PUFA in the book. I wonder why over the year things like Eggs and Oysters are still recommended, but he says Sardines are no longer good. I bet they're higher in PUFA then eggs and oysters, but still, I wonder why he recommended them back then. Any ideas?

Recall that Nutrition for Women is a 44ish year old book, containing collected writings. Dr. Peat has revised views on some issues. The casual view here is that then, as now, Dr. Peat was/is concerned with simple, practical, accessible steps of support. Sardines are a widely available, economical source of protein. They are a food source for selenium, vitamin D, calcium and copper, among others.

PUFA is a problem, as is heavy metal contamination. The oceans are more polluted than they were decades ago. Dr. Peat's concerns about PUFA and heavy metal dangers may be even stronger in recent years.
http://www.ccsenet.org/journal/index.php/jgg/article/viewFile/60637/33669

p.48: “Eggs, sardines, oysters, chicken stew (non-estrogenized chickens), etc., are examples of 'unrefined" protein foods which shouldn't interfere with thyroid function.”

p. 95: “Use complex foods, things close to their living state: eggs, sardines, leaves, milk, etc.”

 

[cyclops]

Recall that Nutrition for Women is a 44ish year old book, containing collected writings. Dr. Peat has revised views on some issues. The casual view here is that then, as now, Dr. Peat was/is concerned with simple, practical, accessible steps of support. Sardines are a widely available, economical source of protein. They are a food source for selenium, vitamin D, calcium and copper, among others.

PUFA is a problem, as is heavy metal contamination. The oceans are more polluted than they were decades ago. Dr. Peat's concerns about PUFA and heavy metal dangers may be even stronger in recent years.
http://www.ccsenet.org/journal/index.php/jgg/article/viewFile/60637/33669

p.48: “Eggs, sardines, oysters, chicken stew (non-estrogenized chickens), etc., are examples of 'unrefined" protein foods which shouldn't interfere with thyroid function.”

p. 95: “Use complex foods, things close to their living state: eggs, sardines, leaves, milk, etc.”

Yea, exactly. I'm wondering why Sardines were the thing that got dropped. They are a low in heavy metals I believe?

Also from Ray's website article "The Great Fish Oil Experiment" :

*Weil recommends eating "oily fish"--"wild Alaskan salmon, mackerel, sardines, or herring"--. "If you do take supplements, fish oil is a better source of DHA than algae"

He says this to show that Weil is wrong. That these foods should now not be recommended.

 

[Milky]

I think they're ok to eat if you like them. It's easier for me to decide if I want to eat fish or not by smell, if it smells 'fishy' at all I leave it alone. It goes off pretty quick but if it's got that hint of ocean air and otherwise smells fresh and clean, I like it.

You can always do the Ray Peat bacon trick and cook sardines with butter to help stabilize that bit of PUFA floating around in there. I buy them frozen every now and then but mostly get the better brands of canned ones in water (not oil). I usually either chop them up like canned tuna fish to eat with veggies and rice or make a "sardine" pasta salad using rice pasta and greek yogurt, carrots, pickles, etc.

 

[Kyle M]

I responded to Westside quoting Ray from 8/20/14 talking about his own personal diet.

true, but after a person writes one or more books about recommending diets, his future online statements are not those of a person who has never done that. You are kind of in "guru" territory when writing whole books on nutrition

 

[cyclops]

I think I like the idea of sardines, more then I actually like sardines.

 

[lvysaur]

I get frozen Indian Ocean anchovies. They're lower in fat and they taste great, low on the food chain too.

 

[Ideonaut]

Sardines are really high in calcium, have excellent protein, and are pretty much the lowest in mercury/toxins, PUFA be damned.

 

[lvysaur]

I have to add though, that proper sardines, mackerel, spanish mackerel, and a few others are the rankest things I've ever eaten, even when completely fresh.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

@Milky "but still don't understand the insistence on throwing down his quotes like the be-all/end-all of how to eat and live."

Not insisting anything. Just answering the question. I don't follow a strict Peat diet. I like to post quotes because I enjoy the topic of nutrition philosophy. It's like a video game to me and I see each nutrition person as a character. And yes I do think there is a true Peat diet and when people say that there isn't they sound dumb because they are trying to widen the details to fit their own worldview or whatever. People call things "Peaty" that aren't at all. It would be like saying white rice is "Atkinsy." It doesn't make sense. And as I've said there are foods that he likes but doesn't eat daily and/or understands why/how a certain food can work for people but he doesn't eat it out of personal preference. I think it's best to break it down into the strict Peat diet followed by the lenient Peat diet.