Raw Protein vs. Cooked Protein

[lindsay]

This is something I've been thinking about a lot lately because recently we put our cocker spaniel (who is plagued with bad skin problems) on a raw diet of beef, beef organs, beef bone & veggies. We can buy it at a local natural pet market and it's just as affordable as the crappy pellet foods most dogs eat. Slowly, but surely, his dermatitis is getting better and he actually enjoys his food. But another notable difference is his digestion. He experienced some constipation at first, but adding some raw carrot into his diet and feeding him a little more raw food and he has good bowel movements.

So, I am prefacing my questions with this anecdote about our dog because the past two weeks I had intense sushi cravings. I am a believer in following healthy cravings, so I went to our local Japanese restaurant and got their lunch special daily - two rolls of raw tuna or yellowtail usually.

I have had bad digestive issues for as long as I can remember and although they got better while taking thyroid, it's still a constant battle. This past couple of weeks, I noticed my stomach was feeling much better and I was wondering if maybe it's because sushi is so easy to digest - it is, after all, just a little bit of rice with some raw fish protein and cucumber or avocado.

Then on Saturday I decided to break my sushi fast and make chicken bone broth. I bought a whole rotisserie chicken and pulled it apart. Decided to save some money and eat some of the chicken breast for dinner (since it's lower in fat). That was fine, but then yesterday (Sunday), my gut wasn't feeling great most of the day - including a bit of nausea. I also ate the broth soup I made from it yesterday for dinner, in leu of sushi.

All this to say, my biggest issue with the higher protein approach to health is that I seem to have inflammatory responses to most protein sources (sometimes immediate, sometimes delayed) - maybe because I don't have a gallbladder, but aside from hard cheeses and sushi, most other sources cause me some sort of digestive distress. Perhaps it's because I was a vegetarian for years (although I occasionally ate fish), but this is a huge issue for me and it got me wondering if it is cooked protein that is the issue? Because if I eat cooked fish, I get the same digestive upset as I would would meat. And this could make sense due to fatty acid oxidation, since all protein has some PUFA. The worst offenders for me are fatty cuts of beef and lamb. If you think about the temperatures most people cook meat, they are much higher than what raw meat would encounter in the body and this could affect the fatty acid composition and make it problematic.

So, am I just lacking the proper digestive enzymes to digest many protein sources from my veggie years, or might there be a reason to opt for raw protein instead? I know eating tons of meat is not great anyhow, but it seems every protein source gives me some issue - from milk to meat. Milk with coffee is fine. I think I never really tried to tune into this until I realized how great I felt eating sushi the past couple of weeks. I could go on a sushi diet and be completely content if it was affordable. I also do better with things like raw oysters, cooked shrimp and scallops seem to be okay also.

Any thoughts or stories from others? I noticed someone else mentioning issues with protein, so I feel this is a legit topic. As I've said in the past, for me, eating more protein has never made me feel fantastic. There have been mental benefits to eating more protein for sure, but the havoc on my gut is still a constant hindrance for me. If there is one thing you will hear most vegetarians and vegans say it's that eating lots of meat didn't make them feel good. I can totally relate to this - it is why I stopped eating it in the first place. But ceviche and raw fish have always been a love of mine and I have little trouble with them. I've only eaten beef carpaccio once, but I recall not having issue with it.

 

[Zachs]

A few thoughts. A meat heavy diet is probably best onky for growing children who can put all those aminos to good use. Adults have little use for so much and do better with a lower overall protein intake and aminos favoring the anti inflammatory glycine, proline, etc. seafood fits that bill. Also seafood is much easier to digest than fowl or ruminent meat, especially when cooked. Cooking at high temps denatures protein and also the tough sinew/cartilage can be problematic. Fish and shellfish have little to none and their amino profile can be much more favorable. Also warm water fish tend to be a lot leaner, having no gull bladder, no doubt its easier for you to digest lower fat meats. Saturated animal fats might also be a tougher digest for you.

The only real downside to a diet based heavily on seafood is that its pretty impossible to get non contaminated sources. Sushi restaurants dont usually source high quality fish and the bigger the fish, the more contaminants. I have read the the selenium in seafood can offset the high amount of mercury though so maybe its not that dangerous.

If i lived close to anocean i would be eating seafood daily because i believe it is a superior protien source compared to land animals. Also probably the main source of protein that we evolved on.

 

[lindsay]

A few thoughts. A meat heavy diet is probably best onky for growing children who can put all those aminos to good use. Adults have little use for so much and do better with a lower overall protein intake and aminos favoring the anti inflammatory glycine, proline, etc. seafood fits that bill. Also seafood is much easier to digest than fowl or ruminent meat, especially when cooked. Cooking at high temps denatures protein and also the tough sinew/cartilage can be problematic. Fish and shellfish have little to none and their amino profile can be much more favorable. Also warm water fish tend to be a lot leaner, having no gull bladder, no doubt its easier for you to digest lower fat meats. Saturated animal fats might also be a tougher digest for you.

The only real downside to a diet based heavily on seafood is that its pretty impossible to get non contaminated sources. Sushi restaurants dont usually source high quality fish and the bigger the fish, the more contaminants. I have read the the selenium in seafood can offset the high amount of mercury though so maybe its not that dangerous.

If i lived close to anocean i would be eating seafood daily because i believe it is a superior protien source compared to land animals. Also probably the main source of protein that we evolved on.

Thanks Zach! Good thoughts!! I've thought about going back to fish as a protein source. I grew up in Maine, so fish has always been my favorite "meat". Now I live in Connecticut, where we have available many good fresh seafood options - especially oysters. Whole foods also sources really good seafood. I've thought about looking into their sushi grade fish and seeing what the quality is like. I've tried sushi from many different places and the local place I've been going to is very good - the fish tastes better than other places I've been to, so I'm hoping it's a good option. I've been very distraught over my re-entry into the world of meat because it just hasn't been as good to me as I would have hoped. Cheese has continued to be my main protein source, along with some raw milk, but I have the least digestive upset from hard cheeses and fish and these are the priciest things to eat. But since protein is necessary, I think it's okay for me to put my money into good quality fishes that are low in fat. It's funny though - other high fat foods don't upset my stomach the amino acids in meat do. I can easily eat coconut oil or butter, but it seems to be foods with amino acids that could be altered in cooking that give me more problems. Not to mention the iron - that's always an issue for people with sensitive digestion.

 

[Zachs]

Id say to stay intuitive and go for a seafood and fruit based diet with supplementa dairy. That would be my optimal diet if i lived somewhere coastal.

Also butter and CO might be easier to digest because of their liquid form at or just above room temp. Animal fat is attached to tissue and is much tougher to break down. Or you could have a weak stomach acid making animal meat problematic.

 

[mt_dreams]

I don't eat a lot of meat products due to the fact they seem to keep me full for too long, which makes it difficult to intake enough calories for the day. Fish & dairy protein digests much faster, and allows me to hit my desired protein & calories for the day. normally I intake roughly 24g from milk, 10g from an egg, 10g from fresh mozzarella made properly, 12g from gelatin puddings, & 40g from fish.

Protein degrades with heat, meaning the more it's cooked, the more activated enzymes it will loose, requiring your body to produce those enzymes in order to digest it. So for the most part, eating protein raw, or as close to raw as possible, will ensure optimum digestion, and less strain on your body.

If you're concerned about mercury from seafood, than you may wish to eat something that binds well with mercury. Mike Adams over at the natural news lab has tested many foods. it appears the best choices would be chlorella and strawberries for blocking the mercury from being absorbed. obviously if the seafood is high in iron you would want to avoid the strawberries due to the vit C. and in true peat fashion, you may want to get large strawberries so you can cut off the seeds.

edit: if you have a weak gallbladder, then you more than likely don't have strong bile production. So either take in extra bile with meat products, or keep to the lighter protein options.

 

[lindsay]

I don't eat a lot of meat products due to the fact they seem to keep me full for too long, which makes it difficult to intake enough calories for the day. Fish & dairy protein digests much faster, and allows me to hit my desired protein & calories for the day. normally I intake roughly 24g from milk, 10g from an egg, 10g from fresh mozzarella made properly, 12g from gelatin puddings, & 40g from fish.

Protein degrades with heat, meaning the more it's cooked, the more activated enzymes it will loose, requiring your body to produce those enzymes in order to digest it. So for the most part, eating protein raw, or as close to raw as possible, will ensure optimum digestion, and less strain on your body.

If you're concerned about mercury from seafood, than you may wish to eat something that binds well with mercury. Mike Adams over at the natural news lab has tested many foods. it appears the best choices would be chlorella and strawberries for blocking the mercury from being absorbed. obviously if the seafood is high in iron you would want to avoid the strawberries due to the vit C. and in true peat fashion, you may want to get large strawberries so you can cut off the seeds.

edit: if you have a weak gallbladder, then you more than likely don't have strong bile production. So either take in extra bile with meat products, or keep to the lighter protein options.

Thanks mt_dreams! Good stuff. I've been eating lots of raw fish lately because I do much better with it and can digest it easily - and the protein seems to work for my body. And actually, the PUFA content isn't as high as one might think - I tend to favor tuna and yellowtail, however (yellowtail is quite lean). Actually, there are lots of lean fishes. I just need to make sure I work in the shellfish - which are usually my favorite. But lately I've been all about sushi - fish and hard cheeses are my staple proteins.

I've also noticed that I CAN digest beef fine, so long as I take the Ox Bile supplement I have and if it's cooked rare (nice and pink inside). I might start buying more roast beef from our whole foods because I can easily eat a quarter lb. of that a day, as it's very rare and digests easily.

This whole thing was very eye opening for me, however. I just noticed that every time I ate a good portion of cooked meat I felt terrible (not so with cured meats). Would experience water retention and just feel icky digestion wise. So I'm going to explore more rare cooked protein sources and then eat some gelatin. I just wish I could get my homemade gummies tasting like Haribo candy :P

 

[Blossom]

Lindsay- Knudsen Tart Cherry juice makes a nice gummy candy. If you haven't tried it I highly recommend it if you like cherries. I added extra sugar.

 

[4peatssake]

I just wish I could get my homemade gummies tasting like Haribo candy :P

Two possible recipes for you. They are posted in the recipe section too.

I got this recipe from Sean and Lindsey Bissell over at Ray Peat Fans on Facebook
They're called Gummy Smileys cuz they make them with a smiley face mold!

Finally figured out a protein gummy recipe that actually tastes good Lindsey tweaked a few recipes to make her own. 2 1/2 cups of blended strawberries. 1/2 cup gelatin. 1/2 cup lemon juice. 8 tablespoons of sugar. Heat up the strawberries and lemon juice, then add in the sugar and gelatin. Make sure to stir constantly to prevent clumps, and then pour them into whatever you want (silicone molds work really well) then cool in the refrigerator for about 10 minutes, or until solid. Eat.

The other one I eat out of the pan before they even set! It's Vietnamese coffee turned into a gelatin dessert. I've been drinking Vietnamese coffee for the past 2 days!! The original recipe called for Knox gelatin (3 packets) but I changed it to 3 TB of gelatin.

Coffee Jello / Coffee Gelatin
1/2 c cold water
2 cups strong coffee, hot. (Original author used two packages of Starbucks Via. The coffee needs to be strong. This isn't the time for Sanka instant. :)
1 can (14 oz) sweetened condensed milk (not evaporated milk)
3 TB Gelatin (cooked collagen, not collagen hydrolysate)

1. Place 1/2 c cold water in a bowl.
2. Sprinkle gelatin over the water. Let sit until the gelatin blooms, about 10 minutes.
3. Stir in the hot coffee and mix until the gelatin is completely dissolved.
4. Stir in the can of sweetened condensed milk.
5. Pour into glass pan. Thickness of finished jello depends on the size of the pan. I used a 7 x 11 pan but a 9 x 13 pan will give you thinner pieces and an 8 x 8 pan will give you thicker pieces.

Note: The combo of coffee and sweetened condensed milk is inspired by Vietnamese coffee. You can probably adapt this to use coffee or espresso, cream and sugar (be sure to dissolve the sugar in the hot coffee and gelatin). I find that 1 TB of unflavored gelatin will firm up 1 1/2 cups of liquid to finger jello "strength" (according to David Lebovitz's "How to Use Gelatin" post you can mold 2 cups with one TB but I feel finger jello needs to be stronger).

 

[tara]

I prefer rarish meat. The first bit of digestion is easier - it chews up easier because it's not so tough and dry, and it tastes better. I love fresh salmon sushi, which I indulge in occasionally. I eat my liver rarish. I have concerns about parasites etc, but so far I've been taking the risk. Sushi-grade fish should be frozen to a very low temp to guarantee killing parasites.
I have a vague memory of a diabetes expert doing some research about whether raw meat was preferable to cooked for diabetic treatment or prevention a few years ago, but didn't follow it up at the time.

 

[mt_dreams]

I recall reading that it takes 3 months in a frozen state to kill flukes that may be present in liver. I'm not sure if keeping the liver in a deep freeze would shorten that time period or not. Since my liver comes pre-fozen from a pasture co-op, i just keep it in the freezer for several months before consuming. I'm not sure if this effects some of the B vitamins, or any of the others nutrients, but it keeps my mind at peace, which is worth it.

 

[tara]

For sushi grade fish, I think the temp is much lower than your regular household freezer. I had in mind a colder temperature, but I just found this:

Recent scientific studies concluded that all parasites linked to sushi can be killed off by freezing it at a temperature of -20 degrees Celsius (-4 degrees Fahrenheit) for 24 hours.

http://www.sushiencyclopedia.com/sushi_ ... sites.html

Don't know if the same applies to mammal or bird liver parasistes.

 

[pboy]

well roasting or burning anything, but especially meat, is carcinogenic not to mention idigestible. Most people eat their meat somehow roasted or burnt or baked or grilled or whatever, and its at least slightly indigestible and toxic, but potentially highly indigestible and toxic. If you can smell the meat like its putting out smoke or making your hosue smell or whatever, those chemicals are actually carcinogenic neurotoxins and the protein becomes too tough to digest so it probably reaches the colon like that. Theres so much bad about the whole thing...that's why public bathrooms smell like a toxic gas chamber. If you are going to eat meat, boiling or I guess raw if you trust the source and its fresh are really the only semi safe and digestible ways of doing it. I don't think id ever eat meat again even if I was starving

 

[johns74]

I don't think id ever eat meat again even if I was starving

Does that include fish? Maybe your taurine won't be optimal? I wonder if getting it to optimal levels will benefit you, even if taken from supplements.

 

[tara]

I think bacterial contamination/degradation of meat tends to at least start out on the surface, so if it's reasonably fresh just cooking the outside deals with some of the risk, and smells and tastes better to me than completely raw. I like a roast occasionally, too, but this generally means mostly steamed in its juices, not burned. And stir-fried can end up more steamed than burned. Boiled/stewed is nice sometimes too, esp with tougher cuts.

I don't think id ever eat meat again even if I was starving

As a health and longevity strategy, this seems to have its limitations. :) But fortunately you are unlikely to have to make that choice.

 

[4peatssake]

well roasting or burning anything, but especially meat, is carcinogenic not to mention idigestible. Most people eat their meat somehow roasted or burnt or baked or grilled or whatever, and its at least slightly indigestible and toxic, but potentially highly indigestible and toxic. If you can smell the meat like its putting out smoke or making your hosue smell or whatever, those chemicals are actually carcinogenic neurotoxins and the protein becomes too tough to digest so it probably reaches the colon like that. Theres so much bad about the whole thing...that's why public bathrooms smell like a toxic gas chamber. If you are going to eat meat, boiling or I guess raw if you trust the source and its fresh are really the only semi safe and digestible ways of doing it. I don't think id ever eat meat again even if I was starving

While I certainly appreciate your point of view pboy, it is a significant departure from the views of RP who considers gelatinous cuts of meat, liver and shellfish to be healthy options for good nutrition.

 

[pboy]

if you boil them its fine, the not eating it totally is just my preferance

 

[pboy]

I think bacterial contamination/degradation of meat tends to at least start out on the surface, so if it's reasonably fresh just cooking the outside deals with some of the risk, and smells and tastes better to me than completely raw. I like a roast occasionally, too, but this generally means mostly steamed in its juices, not burned. And stir-fried can end up more steamed than burned. Boiled/stewed is nice sometimes too, esp with tougher cuts.

I don't think id ever eat meat again even if I was starving

As a health and longevity strategy, this seems to have its limitations. :) But fortunately you are unlikely to have to make that choice.

lol, well I hope not, I don't think so too. Theres reasons for it but I don't think people would understand if I said why, but its important to me

 

[tara]

If you can smell the meat like its putting out smoke or making your hosue smell or whatever, those chemicals are actually carcinogenic neurotoxins and the protein becomes too tough to digest so it probably reaches the colon like that.

I do agree that smoke inhalation can be harmful and potentially carcinogenic. I hate a smoky kitchen (meat or any other kind of smoke).

 

[pboy]

yea im not trying to be dramatic, but its a known carcinogen...you can look it up. So it is better to avoid that if you can for health sake. Boiling doesn't get hot enough to create carcinogens and still kills bacteria and stuff...it might taste plain, but at least its safe and much more digestible

 

[tara]

yea im not trying to be dramatic, but its a known carcinogen...you can look it up. So it is better to avoid that if you can for health sake. Boiling doesn't get hot enough to create carcinogens and still kills bacteria and stuff...it might taste plain, but at least its safe and much more digestible

You can fry and roast and grill without burning, and ventilate well to mitigate against smoke inhalation (or cook outside, as some people do). I think your distaste for the smell of cooking (not buning) meat may be personal, rather than indicative of it being generally unhealthy.
I guess it's all relative to current state of health and availability of better alternatives, as well as personal taste and ethics. If milk liked me as much as I like milk, I would eat a lot less meat.