Ratio Of Vitamin A To Vitamin D?

Kasra

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What is the general ratio in which to take Vitamins A and D?
 
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Kasra said:
What is the general ratio in which to take Vitamins A and D?

good question....if i had to guess i'd say 5000 iu vit. A and 2000-3000 iu vit. D but im not sure that's what im going to aim for...i'm adding vitamin a tomorrow
 
J

j.

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Since there have been few responses, I'm less shy about posting maybe useless stuff.

I try to expose myself to the sun to produce vitamin D. If I don't eat beef liver, I get symptoms of Vit A deficiency such as dandruff and acne very quickly. So I eat liver once a week. If I still get Vitamin A deficiency symptoms, I supplement until the symptoms are gone.

So in summary, what I do is this: ensure adequate levels of vitamin D, and then add vitamin A experimentally until one finds the level that seems to maximize well-being.

Also, if you eat carotene, even small amounts, your callouses might turn orange if you took too much vitamin A. So if you have orange calluses, you supplemented with too much vit A. Unfortunately, I don't think lack of orange calluses guarantees that you haven't taken too much vitamin A.
 

Wilfrid

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I think that Chris Masterjohn recommend 10000 UI of A, and around 3000 of D which is almost what RP also take via higher amount on skin.
But RP says that for most people taking more than 5000 UI of A would do more harm than good.
 

kettlebell

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Wilfrid said:
I think that Chris Masterjohn recommend 10000 UI of A, and around 3000 of D which is almost what RP also take via higher amount on skin.
But RP says that for most people taking more than 5000 UI of A would do more harm than good.

Where did he say this Wilfred? I have not read that and don't remember hearing him say it in interviews. I recognise its very individual dependent but 5000iu on the whole scale of things isn't a great deal.

I ask because I know of lots of people using 25000iu+ (Sometimes significantly more) per day where anything less wasn't enough.

KB
 

cliff

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kettlebell said:
Wilfrid said:
I think that Chris Masterjohn recommend 10000 UI of A, and around 3000 of D which is almost what RP also take via higher amount on skin.
But RP says that for most people taking more than 5000 UI of A would do more harm than good.

Where did he say this Wilfred? I have not read that and don't remember hearing him say it in interviews. I recognise its very individual dependent but 5000iu on the whole scale of things isn't a great deal.
KB


He says if your hypothyroid more than 5000IU can suppress your thyroid, it depends tho.
 

Wilfrid

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Hi KB,

I read this one on Danny Roddy's website and like Cliff said the warning is mainly toward hypothyroid people.
But considering that RP uses around 50000 UI of A and 15000 UI of D from supps on skin (which is equivalent to 10000 UI of A and 3000 UI of D taking orally), I guess that the "optimal" ratio should be within this range.
Paul Jaminet's recommendation are 10000 UI of A and around 4000 UI of D too, so almost like RP and Chris Masterjohn...
Anyway, I put the link below:

http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2011/12/ ... tandi.html
 

kettlebell

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Thanks Wilfrid and Cliff,

I wasn't aware of that and will take that into consideration when my Vit A arrives.
 

freal

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The best ratio seems as studied in poultry seems to be between 5:1 and 8:1 vitamin A to D. I remember when Chris Masterjohn did some article on vitamin d safety in 2010 or 2011 and on his facebook page there were quite a lot of people complaing about problems with high doses of vitamin D. I think its clear that blood levels over 30ng/ml are not safe, dont listen to Dr. Mercola. Dont fool around, you can get anything from kidney stones, gallbladder stones to even cqalcification of the arteries and you get a stroke one day.

Since more than 5000iu of vitamin A is anti-thyroid i think vitamin D doses should be between 600 and 1000 IU. Dont go over 30ng/ml, which would be like 2000IU. Funny thing in this Chris Masterjohn article he dug up studies on vitamin D in lifeguards and they were over 50 ng/ml. The fascinating study was that in Israel lifeguards have 20x times hihger prevalence of kidney stones. Its seems even sun bathing for vitamin D is not completely safe.

The questuion even arises if any more than just 600-1000IU over the year is more than enough, if you are in the sun during the summer

http://www.westonaprice.org/cod-liver-o ... ns-a-and-d
 
J

j.

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freal said:
Dont fool around, you can get anything from kidney stones, gallbladder stones to even cqalcification of the arteries and you get a stroke one day.

Regarding kidneys, average protein in the urine decreases linearly as vitamin D increases, until getting to about 40 ng/ml. PTH, which is important to reduce to avoid kidney calcification, is also reduced until getting to about 35 ng/ml. Peat thinks 50 ng/ml is a good goal.

That said, I try to increase my levels as much as I can from sunlight, I haven't used D supplements so far.

Also, when I sunbathe, my face and scalp go crazy with ance and dandruff. I've been sunbathing almost daily for a few weeks, and the amount to prevent skin reactions is 50,000 IU daily of vitamin A at the moment for every day I sunbathe.
 
J

j.

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freal said:
The fascinating study was that in Israel lifeguards have 20x times hihger prevalence of kidney stones. Its seems even sun bathing for vitamin D is not completely safe.

They probably didn't consume liver even once a week. We Peaters tend to make sure we consume good quantities of vitamin A, which is probably required for higher levels of vitamin D.
 

freal

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j. said:
They probably didn't consume liver even once a week. We Peaters tend to make sure we consume good quantities of vitamin A, which is probably required for higher levels of vitamin D.

Yea, I would also go so far to say you have to take vitamin A with vitamin D in that ratio 5:1 to 8:1 to avoid each vitamins toxicity.


j. said:
Regarding kidneys, average protein in the urine decreases linearly as vitamin D increases, until getting to about 40 ng/ml. PTH, which is important to reduce to avoid kidney calcification, is also reduced until getting to about 35 ng/ml. Peat thinks 50 ng/ml is a good goal.

That said, I try to increase my levels as much as I can from sunlight, I haven't used D supplements so far.

Also, when I sunbathe, my face and scalp go crazy with ance and dandruff. I've been sunbathing almost daily for a few weeks, and the amount to prevent skin reactions is 50,000 IU daily of vitamin A at the moment for every day I sunbathe.

Well, there is no studies supporting 50ng/ml, even on the reverse, mortality was higher on the 50ng/ml. I think Dr. Hollick has written a book and added all the studies together, I think he based his reccomendation of 30ng/ml because the mortality curve was a U-shape with the bottom right at 28ng/ml. But in cattle studies they survive even super mega doses of vitamin A if super mega doses of vitamin D were also being given to them. Its seems it depends a lot on ratios and vitamin K and E also come into play.

The problems with vitamin D are serious, some people reported even of emergency room type of symptoms. On the other hand I think they tested vitamin D in same tribe in Africa or Asia and it was over 50ng/ml, here it is:

" http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/blog/new ... of-africa/ "

In one way I am somehow against being a "lifestyle freak" and think that sticking to some "reasonable" vitamin doses is best.
 
J

j.

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freal said:
Well, there is no studies supporting 50ng/ml, even on the reverse, mortality was higher on the 50ng.

There are studies supporting going to 40 ng/ml, at least if we look in an isolated manner at average protein in urine. Granted, these don't prove causation. These numbers are taken from the average population, so probably many of them get it from sunlight instead of supplements. The paper is:

25-Hydroxyvitamin D Levels and Albuminuria in the Third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey

There is a study that I think supports going to at least 35 ng/ml, because vitamin D keeps lowering PTH at least up to that level.

Source: A talk by Dr. Holick, at 24:54.
http://www.drholicksdsolution.com/hear-dr-holick/

But who knows how these numbers vary as we start to have a very different body from the average population, due to relatively extreme PUFA reduction. The ideal level I guess could change.
 

Mittir

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Dr Holick thinks optimal range is 40-60 ng/ml.
He keeps his D level close to 50 ng/ml.
http://drbenkim.com/dr-michael-holick-vitamin-d.htm

Israel is known for high PUFA diet and we know how UV ray
reacts with PUFA. I am not sure if that study measured their
UV exposure and how effective were those sunscreens.

Here is a nice article on validity of U-shaped mortality curve of vitamin D.
Excess consumption of cod liver oil increasing both vitamin D and mortality
seems quite plausible.Seasonal death rate RP talks is also mentioned here.

However, eight studies, mostly from non-cod liver oil countries, have found no such association with high levels, but a clear risk of dying with low levels (referenced in first paper), although the number of high levels in many of these eight papers was modest.

Third, the man who started the vitamin D revolution, Professor Reinhold Vieth, questions these far northern studies because he has a theory that intracellular vitamin D enzyme systems harmfully reset when under significant seasonal variations. If the authors of the paper in question sorted their results by season, I cannot find it. We know death rates are lowest in the summer when vitamin D levels are the highest, so without seasonal data, Vieth’s explanation cannot be tested.

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/blog/hig ... mortality/
 

freal

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Well, I dont really see how you can expand this issue to PUFA, but OK. Who is the highest in PUFA can be debated, since most nutritional databases say pork fat is 10% PUFA, which has been proven to be wrong, its like 30% PUFA.
All of those Middle-European countries eating those pork deli meats, sausage and salamis would probably be the winner. Like a winter salami has 30%-40% fat, that would mean that a portion of like 150grams of salami would have whooping 45 grams of fat and of it 15grams of PUFA.

Dr Cannell is drawing some weird conclusions, like for instance he says:"Thanks to Bruce Hollis, Robert Heaney, Neil Binkley, and others, we now know the minimal acceptable level. It is 50 ng/ml (125 nmol/L)."
But Drs. Hollis, Heaney, Binkley, and the other authors of this study rightly made very different conclusions from their own data. In the report they wrote for the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, they wrote the following:

"One could plausibly postulate that the point at which hepatic 25(OH)D production becomes zero-order [this is the point at which the enzymes converting vitamin D to 25(OH)D are saturated with vitamin D – CM] constitutes the definition of the low end of normal status. This value, as suggested from the equation in Figure 3 , is at a serum 25(OH)D concentration of 88 nmol/L (35.2 ng/mL) (the y-axis intercept of the linear portion of the equation in Figure 3 ). It is interesting that this estimate is very close to that produced by previous attempts to define the lower end of the normal range from the relations of serum 25(OH)D to calcium absorption (29) and to serum parathyroid hormone concentration (ie, 75–85 nmol/L, or 30–34 ng/mL) (30)."
 

Mittir

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Vitamin Council, Dr Cannell's website, list 40 ng/ml as their minimum for sufficient level.
I do not understand why Chris Masterjohn is assuming that 50 ng/ml is the suggested
minimum. Dr Holicks use 30 ng/ml and RP recommends minimum that keeps PTH in check.
All of them think 50 is a good target in optimal range. There is optimal and there is minimum.

Sufficient range for vitamin D council is 40-80 ng/ml, Endocrine Society is 30-100 and Food and nutrition board is higher than 20, Testing labs 32-100. No one is using 50 as minimum.

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/about-vi ... vitamin-d/
 

edwardBe

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freal said:
Well, I dont really see how you can expand this issue to PUFA, but OK. Who is the highest in PUFA can be debated, since most nutritional databases say pork fat is 10% PUFA, which has been proven to be wrong, its like 30% PUFA.
All of those Middle-European countries eating those pork deli meats, sausage and salamis would probably be the winner. Like a winter salami has 30%-40% fat, that would mean that a portion of like 150grams of salami would have whooping 45 grams of fat and of it 15grams of PUFA.
I think it depends greatly on the diet of the pigs. In the US, of course, pigs are fed soybeans and other grains. I don't know if pig farming in Europe is industrialized like it is here, but I tend to think not, this is one area where traditional methods are important to them, so the 10% figure might be more accurate for their pork.

PUFA appears to affect just about everything that goes on in our bodies from what RP says.
 

freal

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edwardBe said:
freal said:
Well, I dont really see how you can expand this issue to PUFA, but OK. Who is the highest in PUFA can be debated, since most nutritional databases say pork fat is 10% PUFA, which has been proven to be wrong, its like 30% PUFA.
All of those Middle-European countries eating those pork deli meats, sausage and salamis would probably be the winner. Like a winter salami has 30%-40% fat, that would mean that a portion of like 150grams of salami would have whooping 45 grams of fat and of it 15grams of PUFA.
I think it depends greatly on the diet of the pigs. In the US, of course, pigs are fed soybeans and other grains. I don't know if pig farming in Europe is industrialized like it is here, but I tend to think not, this is one area where traditional methods are important to them, so the 10% figure might be more accurate for their pork.

PUFA appears to affect just about everything that goes on in our bodies from what RP says.

Why would pig farming be much different here in Europe. Only thing that counts is money. What you are assuming is wrong since in EU member states are not allowed to subsidize their own pork industry and all the EU subsidies go to corporate farms like one in Belgium.

But there are tricks, Italy went around the rule by putting those solar generators on pig farms and subsidizing in that away., but they still feed pigs GMO soybeans from Brazil and US .
 
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