Raising Serum Androgens Using DHEA, Pregnenolone, And Vitamin K

[shine]

@haidut

since you are unsure about how well sfa ester kuinone and pansterone will absorb on the testes, should we just take them orally together?

Subjectively I can tell you that they both have very noticeable effects and absorb quite well. 2 drops Kuinone and 3 drops Pansterone give me a lot of clean, calm energy and my muscles feel amazing.

 

[Gone Peating]

Subjectively I can tell you that they both have very noticeable effects and absorb quite well. 2 drops Kuinone and 3 drops Pansterone give me a lot of clean, calm energy and my muscles feel amazing.

Nice! Will try

 

[Frankdee20]

Is there any need to use DMSO with the Pansterone for scrotal or topical application ? To replicate the studies ?

 

[haidut]

Is there any need to use DMSO with the Pansterone for scrotal or topical application ? To replicate the studies ?

Not really, the SFA/ethanol or even the tocopherol/MCT solvent should also work albeit probably not as well as DMSO but on the flip side they won'r irritate the skin either.

 

[Kartoffel]

A few people who posted their labs results on Pansterone showed lower SHBG and high free T.

Isn't that the opposite of what you want? Low SHBG and high free androgens is the pattern you see in a variety of degenerative conditions including PCOS, various liver diseases, and balding men.

 

[haidut]

Isn't that the opposite of what you want? Low SHBG and high free androgens is the pattern you see in a variety of degenerative conditions including PCOS, various liver diseases, and balding men.

If Pansterone raises DHT, as several people's tests showed, it is quite expected to lower SHBG and increase free T. I forgot to mention is also seems to increase total T, at least based on the results user @tyler reported in the thread below.
Becoming A Man With Peat And Haidut

Larger human studies with DHEA also showed in lower doses it increases mostly DHEA, DHT and lowers SHBG.

 

[Kartoffel]

If Pansterone raises DHT, as several people's tests showed, it is quite expected to lower SHBG and increase free T. I forgot to mention is also seems to increase total T, at least based on the results user @tyler reported in the thread below.
Becoming A Man With Peat And Haidut

Larger human studies with DHEA also showed in lower doses it increases mostly DHEA, DHT and lowers SHBG.

If it increases total testosterone as well, it's good, but I would always be careful when playing with androgens. If something significantly increases your ratio of free testosterone to total testosterone, this is very likely a bad sign. I think the ideal hormonal profile for a man is high total testosterone, high DHT, and a low free androgen index.

 

[haidut]

I think the ideal hormonal profile for a man is high total testosterone, high DHT, and a low free androgen index.

That's pretty much what I have been saying for the last 5 years on this forum
However, it is hard to have high DHT without also getting free T elevated somewhat since DHT and T compete for binding to SHBG and DHT has higher affinity for it.
Study on the binding of dihydrotestosterone, testosterone and oestradiol with sex hormone binding globulin. - PubMed - NCBI
"...Variations in DHT, T and E2 binding as functions of SHBG concentrations, were also studied by adding a constant amount of each steroid to increasing SHBG concentrations in serum. DHT showed the greatest binding capacity, followed by T and then E2. Since the unbound fractions of T and DHT are believed to be biologically active, and since T and DHT are more sensitive than E2 to SHBG variations, the results obtained further support the hypothesis that SHBG plays an important role in the sex steroids balance."

Also, as I mentioned above, DHT lowers SHBG so it would be hard to have high DHT without also pushign SHBG into the lower end of the normal range.
Dihydrotestosterone regulates plasma sex-hormone-binding globulin in prepubertal males. - PubMed - NCBI
"...This is in contrast to normal boys where SHBG is significantly reduced (P less than 0.01) after stimulation. (3). In normal boys the magnitude of plasma dihydrotestosterone response to human chorionic gonadotrophin correlates with that of SHBG (r = 0.72) more than testosterone does versus SHBG (r = 0.36). It is concluded that dihydrotestosterone decreases SHBG concentration in plasma of prepubertal boys. At least part of the observed decrease in SHBG following testosterone administration in earlier reports must have occurred after its conversion to dihydrotestosterone."

 

[Cameron]

If it increases total testosterone as well, it's good, but I would always be careful when playing with androgens. If something significantly increases your ratio of free testosterone to total testosterone, this is very likely a bad sign. I think the ideal hormonal profile for a man is high total testosterone, high DHT, and a low free androgen index.

I've always wondered if low blood androgens can mean high androgens in tissues like muscle skin then again most people that show low androgens in blood or high androgens in blood can still have bad issues or physical look

 

[Cameron]

It really matters on sensitivity and we still have limited research on this from what it seems and mechanism in which we can truley increase ar activity that actually create truly significant changes in male characteristics other than peds @haidut

 

[Mossy]

Or maybe you have depleted your body of cofactors. When I was applying K2 I got a Vitamin D deficiency extremely FAST. In just 3 days I developed the deficiency. I know by symptoms, when my D is low I develop a weird cough that it's immediately cured with topical D.

This in interesting. I also get a weird cough with K2, but that is even when taking it in combination with D. Maybe I need to increase my D dose. I see you use 20,000 iu topical for D—can you share what your dose is for K2, and confirm that it is topical as well? Thanks.

EDIT: I did a search and see you were using this topically. If you have anything else to share, please feel free. Otherwise, I thought I would spare you having to repeat yourself.

 

[Perseus]

If you have the time, I'd like to ask a few questions.

I'm currently on a low daily dose of pansterone + androsterone at two drops each. What would be a good dose of 5α-DHP to add to this regimen in your opinion? Would one or two drops suffice?

Second question. I have followed the protocol of applying kuinone and pansterone to the scrotum (one drop of each at a time, more than that was too much for my testicles to handle), with androsterone applied topically to the abdominal area. It made me feel great, however there is one thing that is quite worrying. My balls are often in a very shrunken state after having followed this proticol.

After seeing this undesirable effect on my testicles, I have taken a (now week-long) break from scrotal application, and am applying pansterone topically elsewhere (same area as androsterone). From time to time, I still see this incredible shrinking effect, like my balls are literally sucked inside my body.

After reading around a bit, it seems that there is very little chance that I am doing anything that should damage my own natural production of hormones by using such a low dose of these products, but the shrinking effect is still very worrying.

I haven't come across anybody in the same boat as me by searching the forum. Especially at such low doses. I'm wondering if I'm not doing anything damaging.

If this is relevant in anyway, I am practising NoFap. I would assume that by not releasing, my balls should be bigger, not smaller.

Thanks and apologies for your time, you seem like a very busy person.

Edit: actually, from today I am deciding to increase my dosage. I will keep androsterone at 2 drops applied to the abdominal area, and increase pansterone to 4 drops applied to the shoulders with 4 drops of kuinone. Over the weekend my balls weren't as small as on some other days so it relieved my worries a little bit. I think I will stay away from scrotal application until I fully understand what's happening to my balls.

 

[SB4]

@Perseus I had the same issue, very small doses of pansterone (1 drop) applied to scrotum resulted in at first increased libido but then none existant libido and very shrunken balls. Effect persisted with wrist application and even for some time after stopping the whole thing. Makes me wonder if LH or FSH got suppressed somehow.

I am pretty sure I made a thread about it roughly a year ago.

 

[Perseus]

@Perseus I had the same issue, very small doses of pansterone (1 drop) applied to scrotum resulted in at first increased libido but then none existant libido and very shrunken balls. Effect persisted with wrist application and even for some time after stopping the whole thing. Makes me wonder if LH or FSH got suppressed somehow.

I am pretty sure I made a thread about it roughly a year ago.

Scary. They're small again right now even though I stopped scrotal application for over a week.

I wonder if I should stop altogether, even topically.

It's a shame because it makes me feel good, and I'm trying to get rid of gyno which I believe this kuinone + pansterone + androsterone combo is helping me with.

 

[baccheion]

@Perseus I had the same issue, very small doses of pansterone (1 drop) applied to scrotum resulted in at first increased libido but then none existant libido and very shrunken balls. Effect persisted with wrist application and even for some time after stopping the whole thing. Makes me wonder if LH or FSH got suppressed somehow.

I am pretty sure I made a thread about it roughly a year ago.

Vitamin K2 MK-4 (or iodine) is usually what's applied to/near the scrotum. Some on this forum added pansterone, but it seemed temporary. The stack included kuinone, pansterone, and androsterone at 1/3rd the topical dose (due to increase absorption).

 

[Scenes]

If you have the time, I'd like to ask a few questions.

I'm currently on a low daily dose of pansterone + androsterone at two drops each. What would be a good dose of 5α-DHP to add to this regimen in your opinion? Would one or two drops suffice?

Second question. I have followed the protocol of applying kuinone and pansterone to the scrotum (one drop of each at a time, more than that was too much for my testicles to handle), with androsterone applied topically to the abdominal area. It made me feel great, however there is one thing that is quite worrying. My balls are often in a very shrunken state after having followed this proticol.

After seeing this undesirable effect on my testicles, I have taken a (now week-long) break from scrotal application, and am applying pansterone topically elsewhere (same area as androsterone). From time to time, I still see this incredible shrinking effect, like my balls are literally sucked inside my body.

After reading around a bit, it seems that there is very little chance that I am doing anything that should damage my own natural production of hormones by using such a low dose of these products, but the shrinking effect is still very worrying.

I haven't come across anybody in the same boat as me by searching the forum. Especially at such low doses. I'm wondering if I'm not doing anything damaging.

If this is relevant in anyway, I am practising NoFap. I would assume that by not releasing, my balls should be bigger, not smaller.

Thanks and apologies for your time, you seem like a very busy person.

Edit: actually, from today I am deciding to increase my dosage. I will keep androsterone at 2 drops applied to the abdominal area, and increase pansterone to 4 drops applied to the shoulders with 4 drops of kuinone. Over the weekend my balls weren't as small as on some other days so it relieved my worries a little bit. I think I will stay away from scrotal application until I fully understand what's happening to my balls.

@SB4

I’ve had a similar issue. All applications of pansterone or androsterone gave me that effect. Not sure why.

Ive read from Nathan Hatch that the small, shrunken or elevated balls is a sign of estrogen dominance. He says topical natural vitamin e on balls will resolve it.

My experience has been that dropping all supps and taking only activated charcoal at night has completely resolved it. Balls hang low and full. Flaccid full. Feels subjectively like higher testosterone, lower estrogen.


Adding in supps in my experimental phase (it never ends tbh) is often a net negative. The takeaway for me is food and a healthy gut is best.

 

[Waynish]

I know a lot of you folks aren't cycling off, when it is implied that people are!

How are you finding the cycling off process? Feel better on it, so keep taking it?

 

[haidut]

Ive read from Nathan Hatch that the small, shrunken or elevated balls is a sign of estrogen dominance

...or suppressed LH/FSH from increased androgen synthesis. Bodybuilders (ab)using non-aromatizable AAS like trenbolone, methenolone or even Proviron/DHT know quite well how quickly the testicles shrink when these steroids are used in sufficiently high doses. Androsterone/DHEA convert easily to DHT and may be raising DHT levels to the point where it triggers negative feedback. Estrogen is usually more suppressive than non-aromatizable androgens but the latter suppress too. I posted a study just a few days ago showing HED of 0.15mg/kg androsterone administered for 5 days suppressed LH by 40%.

 

[Scenes]

...or suppressed LH/FSH from increased androgen synthesis. Bodybuilders (ab)using non-aromatizable AAS like trenbolone, methenolone or even Proviron/DHT know quite well how quickly the testicles shrink when these steroids are used in sufficiently high doses. Androsterone/DHEA convert easily to DHT and may be raising DHT levels to the point where it triggers negative feedback. Estrogen is usually more suppressive than non-aromatizable androgens but the latter suppress too. I posted a study just a few days ago showing HED of 0.15mg/kg androsterone administered for 5 days suppressed LH by 40%.

Yeah that has always been my understanding, just raising the point he made. Curious though that if DHT is elevated, some people still suffer ED.

 

[SB4]

I should add that I have had blood work since that shows suppressed LH and FSH. Perhaps my LH/FSH is low due to a messed up HPG axis caused by my dysautonomia. Adding DHEA etc to this could cause further suppression. I intend to try pansterone again relatively soon now that my health is better than it was a year ago.