Raising Serum Androgens Using DHEA, Pregnenolone, And Vitamin K

[Frankdee20]

So is vitamin K androgenic when applied to the scrotum only ? Or can it also help taken orally? If so, what's the mechanism behind this ?

 

[haidut]

Ok, so here we go :

This year from January to June I was using some different combinations of pansterone in oil, pansterone in DMSO, Kuinone, both topical, oral or in my balls. Not much of it really, a couple of drops every other day. I was using estroban at that time also to potentiate aromatase inhibition. I got good anti-stress effects, more energy, etc... BUT I stopped because I was having a really annoying and scary thing and that is my face would become red flush, like the infamous niacin flush. That was potentiated more if I drank alcohol or trained. People would comment on how "tanned" or "red" I was. I suspected estrogen increase. I stopped.

A couple of days ago I found my bottle of Kuinone which I hadn't use since then and for 2 days I applied 5 drops in my scrotum. Yes, I felt androgenic effects immediately. But also I started getting the red flush again!! This time it was really clear to me that it was not because of DHEA converting to estrogen but most probably because of K2->testosterone->estrogen. But I'm not having anyother estrogenic symptoms. Strange.

I checked on the internet "red flush testosterone". There we go. A few bodybuilder boards with people having this same effect while on TRT. So definitely it is related to testosterone doing something.

In those boards some people theorize it might be estrogen, others theorize it might be high blood presure, other high RBC (red blood cell count).

Aha... Let's see... I had a blood panel for something unrelated to this from last May. Let's see if they tested RBC back then, maybe it gives me a clue.

SURPRISE.

My Hematocrit (a way to measure RBC) was at the TOP of the range, 51%. Range is 31-51

So.... I don't know what's going on then. Is testosterone increasing RBC, or is estrogen increasing RBC ?

I have also noticed what I think is a thickening of my blood. So all clues point to that hematocrit increase.

@haidut do you know anything about this ? Have you heard of anyother customer having this problems ? There are many bodybuilders who get this while on TRT.

Well, without knowing what your T and E were/are it is hard to speculate what could be the direct cause. Higher T levels are definitely associated with increase hematocrit and RBC values. In fact, this is one of the main reasons for prescribing AAS for anemia and like you said it has been noticed by bodybuilders who use AAS. I guess the Pansterone + Kuinone may have jacked up your T a bit too much. Also, on other forums people have reported the same effect from just K2 and I am not sure what the mechanism behind that is. So, if possible please do a steroid panel and CBC, as well as iron, ferritin, transferin and iron saturation.

 

[Makrosky]

Well, without knowing what your T and E were/are it is hard to speculate what could be the direct cause. Higher T levels are definitely associated with increase hematocrit and RBC values. In fact, this is one of the main reasons for prescribing AAS for anemia and like you said it has been noticed by bodybuilders who use AAS. I guess the Pansterone + Kuinone may have jacked up your T a bit too much. Also, on other forums people have reported the same effect from just K2 and I am not sure what the mechanism behind that is. So, if possible please do a steroid panel and CBC, as well as iron, ferritin, transferin and iron saturation.

Thanks a lot haidut!! I'm gonna run the blood test next friday that is for sure. It's time to see what's going on once for all. A couple of other things :

1.- I asked Ray about this. He literally said : "It could be testosterone; estrogen tends to lower hematocrit."

2.- So the lab test I'm gonna run is below. Could you please check if it's ok or if I could add/substract anything ? I'm paying it from my own pocket.

- Iron (Serum)
- Ferritin (Serum)
- Transferrin (Serum)
- Transferrin saturation Index (Serum) (I think this is the one you meant with "iron saturation"?)
- CBC

Steroids :
- Testosterone (Serum) .... (Is this the one I should test or the Free testosterone one?)
- DHT (Serum)
- Estrone E1 (Serum)
- Estradiol E2 (Serum)
- DHEA Sulfate (Serum)
- LH (Serum)
- Folicustimulation Hormone (Serum)
- Prolactine (Serum)
- Progesterone P4 (Serum)
- TSH (Serum)

 

[haidut]

Thanks a lot haidut!! I'm gonna run the blood test next friday that is for sure. It's time to see what's going on once for all. A couple of other things :

1.- I asked Ray about this. He literally said : "It could be testosterone; estrogen tends to lower hematocrit."

2.- So the lab test I'm gonna run is below. Could you please check if it's ok or if I could add/substract anything ? I'm paying it from my own pocket.

- Iron (Serum)
- Ferritin (Serum)
- Transferrin (Serum)
- Transferrin saturation Index (Serum) (I think this is the one you meant with "iron saturation"?)
- CBC

Steroids :
- Testosterone (Serum) .... (Is this the one I should test or the Free testosterone one?)
- DHT (Serum)
- Estrone E1 (Serum)
- Estradiol E2 (Serum)
- DHEA Sulfate (Serum)
- LH (Serum)
- Folicustimulation Hormone (Serum)
- Prolactine (Serum)
- Progesterone P4 (Serum)
- TSH (Serum)

Yeah, I thought it is more likely to be T given what bodybuilders report as well. The tests seem fine, you can try to do both total and free T as well as SHBG if the doctor is OK with adding them to the list.

 

[haidut]

So is vitamin K androgenic when applied to the scrotum only ? Or can it also help taken orally? If so, what's the mechanism behind this ?

Oral, topical, it does not matter. It should help raise gonadal synthesis of T. The studies in the original thread talk about oral use on rats and other studies show that putting on the scrotum greatly enhances absorption of most chemicals. So, the combination of these effects seems to suggest using vitamin K on the scrotum would be even more effective.

 

[Makrosky]

Yeah, I thought it is more likely to be T given what bodybuilders report as well. The tests seem fine, you can try to do both total and free T as well as SHBG if the doctor is OK with adding them to the list.

Cool, thanks, I will report the results in two weeks aprox. I can test whatever I want I'm gonna pay it out of my pocket in a private lab. I'll add those as well.

 

[Makrosky]

@haidut please help me man because I'm right now scared as hell.

I ran the bloodtests we talked a few posts earlier. Some of them like estrogens, dht, progesterone, DHEA-S, etc will still take some time to be analyzed but I got others, partial result. I will post the complete blood panel when I get them all (2 weeks from now aprox.). In the meanwhile :

Just look at this :
Free Testosterone : 53,48 pg/mL (Lab range : <= 23,08 pg/mL)
LH : 7 U/L (Lab range for men : 1,5 - 34,6 U/L)
FSH : 6 U/L (Lab range : 1,4-18,1 U/L)

So I have more than double testosterone than the lab top range!!!!!!
Also I think my FSH and LH are really low, probably because of a feedback loop.

F*CK!!! I think I have damaged myself :-(

Can I have caused myself supression like the people/bodybuilders who use TRT and stuff? Or hypogonadism ? Or what the hell ? I'm scared as hell. Please give me some advice. What should I do (besides the obvious of stopping using any testosterone raising products on scrotum) ? I have also noticed much lowered semen production. I didn''t pay attention to it but now it's scary.

Do you think the testosterone levels will slowly fall down to normal ranges by itself ?

Please help!

And for the others : Be really careful I wasn't applying that much pansterone/k2 on my scrotum and this happened so be really careful. ALWAYS DO BLOODTESTS!

 

[Frankdee20]

@haidut please help me man because I'm right now scared as hell.

I ran the bloodtests we talked a few posts earlier. Some of them like estrogens, dht, progesterone, DHEA-S, etc will still take some time to be analyzed but I got others, partial result. I will post the complete blood panel when I get them all (2 weeks from now aprox.). In the meanwhile :

Just look at this :
Free Testosterone : 53,48 pg/mL (Lab range : <= 23,08 pg/mL)
LH : 7 U/L (Lab range for men : 1,5 - 34,6 U/L)
FSH : 6 U/L (Lab range : 1,4-18,1 U/L)

So I have more than double testosterone than the lab top range!!!!!!
Also I think my FSH and LH are really low, probably because of a feedback loop.

F*CK!!! I think I have damaged myself :-(

Can I have caused myself supression like the people/bodybuilders who use TRT and stuff? Or hypogonadism ? Or what the hell ? I'm scared as hell. Please give me some advice. What should I do (besides the obvious of stopping using any testosterone raising products on scrotum) ? I have also noticed much lowered semen production. I didn''t pay attention to it but now it's scary.

Do you think the testosterone levels will slowly fall down to normal ranges by itself ?

Please help!

And for the others : Be really careful I wasn't applying that much pansterone/k2 on my scrotum and this happened so be really careful. ALWAYS DO BLOODTESTS!

I want to be you ! Double testosterone. Can I ask, has that made you want to pork anything walking the street ?

 

[Wagner83]

@haidut please help me man because I'm right now scared as hell.

I ran the bloodtests we talked a few posts earlier. Some of them like estrogens, dht, progesterone, DHEA-S, etc will still take some time to be analyzed but I got others, partial result. I will post the complete blood panel when I get them all (2 weeks from now aprox.). In the meanwhile :

Just look at this :
Free Testosterone : 53,48 pg/mL (Lab range : <= 23,08 pg/mL)
LH : 7 U/L (Lab range for men : 1,5 - 34,6 U/L)
FSH : 6 U/L (Lab range : 1,4-18,1 U/L)

So I have more than double testosterone than the lab top range!!!!!!
Also I think my FSH and LH are really low, probably because of a feedback loop.

F*CK!!! I think I have damaged myself :-(

Can I have caused myself supression like the people/bodybuilders who use TRT and stuff? Or hypogonadism ? Or what the hell ? I'm scared as hell. Please give me some advice. What should I do (besides the obvious of stopping using any testosterone raising products on scrotum) ? I have also noticed much lowered semen production. I didn''t pay attention to it but now it's scary.

Do you think the testosterone levels will slowly fall down to normal ranges by itself ?

Please help!

And for the others : Be really careful I wasn't applying that much pansterone/k2 on my scrotum and this happened so be really careful. ALWAYS DO BLOODTESTS!

I don't have knowledge but why are you scared of suppression or hypogonadism when you did not take T and so far your T is above the range? Btw this is free T not T. I think you are scared because, like most of us, you don't really know what you are doing when you use these supplements.

 

[Makrosky]

I don't have knowledge but why you are scared of suppression or hypogonadism when you did not take T and so far your T is above the range? Btw this is free T not T. I think you are scared because as most of us you don't really know what you are doing when you use these supplements.

Well, Wagner, you are for sure right in one thing : We don't really know what these supps are doing if we don't run comprehensive blood tests. In my particular case (we talked about that before) I knew it instinctively but now it's confirmed.

I did not take T but I forced my body to produce large ammounts of T artificially thus possibly creating a negative feedback loop as the tests confirmed (look at LH and FSH, they are on the very low end).

I'm also worried because my semen volume has diminished a lot. Again, probably because of the negative feedback loop.

One positive thing though : Recovery time between orgasms is inexistent. I can have three orgasms with ejaculation (wether sex or masturbation) and not feel drained even a bit. Never happened to me before. I have more libido also. Erections are the same.

 

[Makrosky]

I want to be you ! Double testosterone. Can I ask, has that made you want to pork anything walking the street ?

Not really. Like I have more libido and can ejaculate without feeling drained at all but I'm not feeling like a sex maniac or anything. I don't think I'm feeling any positives about this besides the lack of draining after ejaculation.

 

[Wagner83]

I'm also worried because my semen volume has diminished a lot. Again, probably because of the negative feedback loop.

One positive thing though : Recovery time between orgasms is inexistent. I can have three orgasms with ejaculation (wether sex or masturbation) and not feel drained even a bit. Never happened to me before. I have more libido also. Erections are the same.

That can be influenced by diet, water intake, and simply how often you ejaculate, given what you say at the end of your post that sounds like a good reason lol. Maybe try oysters (zinc) to see?

 

[Makrosky]

That can be influenced by diet, water intake, and simply how often you ejaculate, given what you say at the end of your post that sounds like a good reason lol. Maybe try oysters (zinc) to see?

Yeah well I've increased ejaculation frequency that's for sure. But still I produce much less than normally. I'll post the results of the full bloodtests in the next days to see how the estrogens and DHT are so we can get a better picture. Thanks for your tips man!

 

[Lucenzo01]

K2 can't cause suppression. It has to be the Pansterone. I have put K2 on scrotum before only with good results.

 

[Makrosky]

K2 can't cause suppression. It has to be the Pansterone. I have put K2 on scrotum before only with good results.

I think the supression(if indeed there is which I don't know) is not strictly because of the ammounts of pansterone used but because the pituitary senses too much testosterone and orders the gonads to stop producing more. And also the pituitary stops producing LH and FSH.

 

[Lucenzo01]

I think the supression(if indeed there is which I don't know) is not strictly because of the ammounts of pansterone used but because the pituitary senses too much testosterone and orders the gonads to stop producing more.

Or maybe you have depleted your body of cofactors. When I was applying K2 I got a Vitamin D deficiency extremely FAST. In just 3 days I developed the deficiency. I know by symptoms, when my D is low I develop a weird cough that it's immediately cured with topical D.

 

[Wagner83]

But why do people talk about suppression when you may have high T without supplementing exogenous T ? Also your LH is in the lower end of the range but not extremely low . Let's see if haidut has anything to add but we may have to wait for prolactin, T etc..

Or maybe you have depleted your body of cofactors. When I was applying K2 I got a Vitamin D deficiency extremely FAST. In just 3 days I developed the deficiency. I know by symptoms, when my D is low I develop a weird cough that it's immediately cured with topical D.

How much D did you need to feel the effects of D on the skin?

 

[Lucenzo01]

But why do people talk about suppression when you may have high T without supplementing exogenous T ? Also your LH is in the lower end of the range but not extremely low . Let's see if haidut has anything to add but we may have to wait for prolactin, T etc..


How much D did you need to feel the effects of D on the skin?

20.000 IU's and the cough stop in 10 minutes with no return.

 

[Makrosky]

Or maybe you have depleted your body of cofactors. When I was applying K2 I got a Vitamin D deficiency extremely FAST. In just 3 days I developed the deficiency. I know by symptoms, when my D is low I develop a weird cough that it's immediately cured with topical D.

Hmmm... it could be. But in my case I only used k2 in scrotum or skin very sparsely. Kuinone 5 drops on scrotum a few times. And topical 1 drop everyother day. I normally get my K2 from estroban which is balanced with D vitamin. I've taken a A LOT of sunlight during this period.

 

[Makrosky]

But why do people talk about suppression when you may have high T without supplementing exogenous T ? Also your LH is in the lower end of the range but not extremely low . Let's see if haidut has anything to add but we may have to wait for prolactin, T etc..


How much D did you need to feel the effects of D on the skin?

Yeah I hope @haidut can chime in. I got new blood results, here are the latest ones :

I’ll use “u” for the greek “micro” character:


Age : 35 yr old, male.

Red Blood Cell : 5,52 mill/uL (4,6-5,8 mill/uL)
Hemoglobin : 16,6 g/dL (13-18 g/dL)
Hematocrites : 48,5% (40-52%)
(Tell me if you need the rest like MCV, MCH, Platelets, etc. they are all on my lab normal ranges)

Ferritin : 103 ng/mL (30-350 ng/mL)
Iron : 112 ug/dL (40-160 ug/dL)
Transferrin : 234 mg/dL (210-430 mg/dL)
Transferrin Saturation Index : 48% (20-55%)

Luteinizing Hormone LH : 7 U/L (Men : 1,5 - 34,6 U/L)
FSH : 6 U/L (1,4-18,1 U/L)
Free Testosterone : 53,48 pg/mL (<=23,08 pg/mL) (Holy ***t, more than double of the lab top range)
Testosterone : 6,82 ng/mL (1,30-10,20 ng/mL)
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin SHBG : 21,7 nmol/L (12-75 nmol/L)
TSH : 1,11 uU/mL (0,20-4,60 uU/mL)
Prolactin : 6,9 ng/mL (Men: 1-20 ng/mL)
Progesterone : 0,58 ng/mL (<= 1 ng/mL)
17-Beta Estradiol : 36 pg/mL (10-50 pg/mL)
DHEA-S : 2,09 ug/mL (0,35-4,41 ug/mL)

Pending : DHT, E1

Everything else seems in range. Are those Prolactin and E2 levels OK ?