Raising Body Temp. Why Does Starch Work Better For Me Than Sugar?

[Captain_Coconut]

I have been working on eating for increased metabolism now for several months and I have been monitoring my body temperature somewhat obsessively. I am noticing a definite trend where eating starch boosts my body temperature more than having the equivalent calories in sugar.

After many observations I can summarize it as follows:

My stomach is empty, I feel like having a snack and my temperature is at 98.2, I then do one of the following:

Scenario 1: I eat 200 calories of rice, 15 min. later my temperature rises to 99.2, hour later 99.0
Scenario 2: I drink 200 calories of juice or soda, 15 min. later my temperature rises to 98.6, hour later 98.6
Scenario 3: I eat 200 calories in cheese or meat, 15 min. later my temperature drops to 98.0, hour later 98.6
Scenario 4: I eat 200 calories, of equal starch/sugar/fat/protein, 15. min later my temperature is at 98.2, hour later 98.6


Here are my questions:
Is my reaction normal, or would getting more heat from sugar be a sign of a healthier metabolism? Is there something I can do to switch gears over to favoring sugar for energy? What might this say about the state of my health?

Before 2018 I was limiting sugar intake to 50 grams a day, now it is around 150 grams a day. I was expecting that once my body got used to it - drinking sugar would be the most easily converted food to generate more body heat, but evidently there is something with my body that still prefers starch.

Your input is much appreciated. Thank you.

 

[tca300]

Do you add salt to your starch? If no salt is being eaten at the same time as fruit/juice that could be a variable. Also with the rapid breakdown of starch into glucose, more might be burned off via thermogenesis ( body heat ) than fruit/juice because fruit sugar likely raises blood sugar much slower than starch and less would become burdensome and need to be disposed of via fat creation and or thermogenesis. Fruit sugar would give a slower rise in blood sugar than starch, rather than a quick blast of rocket fuel so-to-speak. Just my thoughts! I always reserve the right to be wrong.

 

[YourUniverse]

Like tca300 wrote above, if you add saturated fat or salt to the rice, it could be those things causing the temperature spike and not the starch itself

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Re: tca300 and jamies33

For the sugar drink: I see the same results with or without salt. I have tried taking 1/8 tsp salt along with the sugary drink; whether it be soda, fruit juice, or straight up table sugar in water.

For the starch snack: I see the same result with or without a little salt or saturated fat. I prefer the taste of a little salted butter on the rice, but I have also tried without just to see if there was a difference. Further, drinking a glass of water along with this does not seem to make a difference.

My body is assimilating starch and sugar differently enough to make a marked difference on my metabolism (body heat), with little difference from additional salt or fat. Perhaps it is a matter of my insulin response? Anyone else who has noticed this before?

 

[tara]

I haven't measured temps as rigorously as you, but I notice that when I am really hungry, starch satisfies me and gives me more energy than sugar. I've had periods of very low sugar high starch-eating, and period of trying to reverse this to high-sugar low-starch. I'm now eating moderate amounts of both. Usually at least three meals with more starchy foods like spuds or rice, and sweet foods like fruit in between.

I don't know what it means about our state of health, but trying to override it didn't seem to work well for me.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

I haven't measured temps as rigorously as you, but I notice that when I am really hungry, starch satisfies me and gives me more energy than sugar. I've had periods of very low sugar high starch-eating, and period of trying to reverse this to high-sugar low-starch. I'm now eating moderate amounts of both. Usually at least three meals with more starchy foods like spuds or rice, and sweet foods like fruit in between.

I don't know what it means about our state of health, but trying to override it didn't seem to work well for me.

Thank you tara. The other thing is the affect it has on my appetite, when going from an empty stomach to eating 200 calories in starch - an hour later I will feel like eating a lot more. Doing the same but with sugar, I end up not feeling that hungry an hour later. Often times I have noted that having 2 cups of soda or juice will suppress my appetite for several hours. Maybe this is why desserts are traditionally saved for last, remember hearing your elders tell you that you would ruin your appetite if they let you have sweets before dinner?

 

[tca300]

Thank you tara. The other thing is the affect it has on my appetite, when going from an empty stomach to eating 200 calories in starch - an hour later I will feel like eating a lot more. Doing the same but with sugar, I end up not feeling that hungry an hour later. Often times I feel like having 2 cups of soda or juice will suppress my appetite for several hours. Maybe this is why desserts are traditionally saved for last, remember hearing your elders tell you that you would ruin your appetite if they let you have sweets before dinner?

" Eating starch, by increasing insulin and lowering the blood sugar, stimulates the appetite, causing a person to eat more..." Glycemia, starch, and sugar in context

I have experienced the same thing with starch.

 

[tara]

" Eating starch, by increasing insulin and lowering the blood sugar, stimulates the appetite, causing a person to eat more..." Glycemia, starch, and sugar in context

I have experienced the same thing with starch.

I guess it works differently for different people.
My experience was that eating to appetite, when I tried to reduce starch, I tended to keep eating and eating, trying to get satisfied, and ate quite a bit more. When I eat starchy foods too, I am satisfied, have energy to function and focus on other things I need to do again, and stop eating till I'm hungry again.
I had various other factors going on too, so it wasn't all down to this, but for me, I was gaining weight while eating a higher proportion of sugar: starch, and losing weight when I went back to eating a higher proportion of starch:sugar again.

 

[tca300]

I guess it works differently for different people.
My experience was that eating to appetite, when I tried to reduce starch, I tended to keep eating and eating, trying to get satisfied, and ate quite a bit more. When I eat starchy foods too, I am satisfied, have energy to function and focus on other things I need to do again, and stop eating till I'm hungry again.
I had various other factors going on too, so it wasn't all down to this, but for me, I was gaining weight while eating a higher proportion of sugar: starch, and losing weight when I went back to eating a higher proportion of starch:sugar again.

I think most people develope a certain level of addiction to the blood sugar rush from starch, and therefore makes changing to a slower sugar rise very difficult/unpleasant. Almost resembling a shock like state when starch is removed, as the body is use to a magor glucose surge.

 

[tara]

I think most people develope a certain level of addiction to the blood sugar rush from starch, and therefore makes changing to a slower sugar rise very difficult/unpleasant. Almost resembling a shock like state when starch is removed, as the body is use to a magor glucose surge.

Could be one potential factor.
If I had time and abundant good quality affordable fruit available, it would be interesting to experiment with seeing whether a gradual shift would be workable. I'm not planning to move to a different location anytime soon, though, and I don't see any obvious problems with the starchy foods I'm eating.
IIRC, I think Peat might have said it took him a year and a half when he decided to do it?

There are also the issues Haidut and Tyw have discussed that might make large amounts of fructose burdomsome for at least some of us.
I don't just miss starchy foods, I feel sick from eating comparable quantities of the sweet foods I've had available. I don't believe that that can be good for me. I don't know to what extent it's quality vs quantity that's the issue. I do know I feel and function better avoiding this. I definitely don't want to lose more weight.

 

[Ulysses]

Eat starch. I feel best eating 6 grams of sodium a day. Salting milk is digusting. Salting fruit, disgusting. Salt water is disgusting too. No way around it: I need oats, potatoes and rice as a vehicle for salt. If you’re worried about endotoxin from the starch, then drown it in coconut oil and/or vinegar. White rice with onions, carrots, tons of salt, tons of coconut oil and white vinegar is basically my favorite meal of the day. Every time I eat that, my temperature rises enough for me to break a sweat.

I’m guessing that the place where people get into trouble with starch is adding it to a very low fat diet. Ray Peat says to always eat it with plenty of saturated fat, and he’s right. When I try to eat that same meal sans coconut oil it just makes me hungrier.

 

[yerrag]

Captain, how would you consider yourself - diabetic, hypoglycemic, or normal (i.e. healthy)? I think that has a lot to do with how your body reacts to glucose and fructose.

But I would guess that you are normal, healthy that is as far as blood sugar regulation goes. And that you don't suffer through sleepy or hungry periods during the day.

If I would venture a guess, your higher body temperature eating starch has to do with glucose being used for energy production during the sudden deluge of sugar into your blood. Being healthy, blood sugar-wise, means that your body tissues can absorb that sudden spike in sugar (both glucose and fructose) and that means there is no insulin response because the blood sugar does not go high enough to trigger it.

If you were diabetic or hypoglycemic, your body tissues would not be able to handle the glucose (from eating rice) spike but would be have a better chance handling the spike in sugar from drinking fruit juice (having both fructose and glucose) or taking cane sugar (sucrose, which is a molecule composed of fructose and glucose). Ray Peat says that people with difficulty metabolizing glucose can metabolize fructose. So, if your sugar metabolism is not normal, I expect that you would get higher temperatures from consuming fruit juice or cane sugar, than from consuming rice, the reason being that the sugar from fruit juice/sugar is being used to produce energy, whereas the glucose from starch isn't.

But if you were normal sugar-metabolism wise, it is possible that simply burning glucose consumes less energy than burning fruit juice or cane sugar, as you had confirmed with your test. My guess is that maybe there is added energy involved in breaking down sucrose into glucose and fructose, with regard to enzyme usage and gastric acid usage possibly.

 

[tara]

Eat starch. I feel best eating 6 grams of sodium a day. Salting milk is digusting. Salting fruit, disgusting. Salt water is disgusting too. No way around it: I need oats, potatoes and rice as a vehicle for salt.

I eat starch, and I like to salt it. But when I've tried to eat less starch, my way of getting enough salt involved salting eggs, meat and broths etc more heavily, so that kind of resolved that issue.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Thanks yerrag. Yes I think I am basically normal, but have only reached normal about a month ago, I would consider myself recently recovered from years of under-feeding and intermittent fasting.

As for the starch and endotoxin connection, my grasp on that is that starches (particularly fibrous ones) act like a great source of fuel for endotoxin in the gut - but that they are not necessarily the source of endotoxin. What does RP consider to be the main source(s) of endotoxin? When I eat rice it is basically sterile, and is also polished / very low fiber. I agree, drink some vinegar, have some lysine and get on with it.

I wonder if it is the amount of liquid or fibers I am consuming in relation to the sugars (e.g. soda, or pineapple chunks) that is the real barrier here to achieving warmer temps. I will have to do some experiments on body temp and downing 4 tablespoons of sugar with just a few sips of water, hah.

 

[Ulysses]

Thanks yerrag. Yes I think I am basically normal, but have only reached normal about a month ago, I would consider myself recently recovered from years of under-feeding and intermittent fasting.

As for the starch and endotoxin connection, my grasp on that is that starches (particularly fibrous ones) act like a great source of fuel for endotoxin in the gut - but that they are not necessarily the source of endotoxin. What does RP consider to be the main source(s) of endotoxin? When I eat rice it is basically sterile, and is also polished / very low fiber. I agree, drink some vinegar, have some lysine and get on with it.

I wonder if it is the amount of liquid or fibers I am consuming in relation to the sugars (e.g. soda, or pineapple chunks) that is the real barrier here to achieving warmer temps. I will have to do some experiments on body temp and downing 4 tablespoons of sugar with just a few sips of water, hah.

Endotoxin is produced mainly by parasitic bacteria in the gut. Also, persorbed food is considered endotoxin, and starches have a strong tendency to be persorbed. IIRC, saturated fat prevents persorption, as well as slowing down the assimilation of the starch so that it’s more fully digested by the time it reaches the small intestine, which is where the parasites tend to live; this is good because they prefer polysaccharides to disaccharides and monosaccharides. Coconut oil and vinegar also have direct anti-microbial effects, so eating them with starch should reduce the activity of the endotoxin-producing bacteria that would otherwise feed on the starch. And saturated fat in general has a “soap-like” cleansing effect on the digestive tract, which is why coconut oil is part of the carrot salad.

 

[Ulysses]

I eat starch, and I like to salt it. But when I've tried to eat less starch, my way of getting enough salt involved salting eggs, meat and broths etc more heavily, so that kind of resolved that issue.

True, one big problem with my current diet is that I don’t eat enough meat; eggs are limited to 4x a day because of PUFA concerns, and I can’t add broths because it’s already fluid-heavy. I’ve never really eaten that way before, so I’m not sure how it would work out for me in practice, but 6 grams of sodium a day is a lot of salt. The nice thing about starches is you can mix the salt throughout so that the salty flavor isn’t so concentrated; putting that kind of salt on a slab or slices of steak is going to taste reallt, really salty.

Salt is key for me, I just felt like ***t no matter what until I started eating lots of salt. I might even try going higher with it; I see no reason not to, especially considering the fact that I have congenitally low blood pressure.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

The nice thing about starches is you can mix the salt throughout so that the salty flavor isn’t so concentrated; putting that kind of salt on a slab or slices of steak is going to taste reallt, really salty.

I take most of my salt popped back directly on to my tongue, given a second to mix with saliva, then chased with whatever beverage I am having. I have been on high salt for around a year, I get 5+ grams a day. I got turned on to this by listening to Dr. F. Batmanghelidj, who wrote 'Your Body's Many Cries for Water', which is a dumb title because it is all about salt really. According to him his patients have much better results when the salt is placed directly on the tongue (vs mixed in to water first).

P.S. I hope everyone knows to stick with rock-salts, as salt from today's ocean is highly contaminated.

 

[tara]

As for the starch and endotoxin connection, my grasp on that is that starches (particularly fibrous ones) act like a great source of fuel for endotoxin in the gut - but that they are not necessarily the source of endotoxin. What does RP consider to be the main source(s) of endotoxin? When I eat rice it is basically sterile, and is also polished / very low fiber. I agree, drink some vinegar, have some lysine and get on with it.

Endotoxin is part of gram-negative bacteria's cell wall, and it is released when the bacteria die. (Some bacteria produce exotoxins - that is, they secrete toxins while they are alive.) Various bacteria eat starches and fibres that make it undigested down to the large intestine. Or to the small intestine, in the case of SIBO.

Endotoxin is produced mainly by parasitic bacteria in the gut.

And maybe by some that are considered symbiotic, too, depending on one's view

Also, persorbed food is considered endotoxin

I would consider persorbed starch granules to be a potential problem (and so far I've only seen evidence of that occurring with raw or dry starch), but I've never seen it referred to as endotoxin before?

True, one big problem with my current diet is that I don’t eat enough meat; eggs are limited to 4x a day because of PUFA concerns, and I can’t add broths because it’s already fluid-heavy. I’ve never really eaten that way before, so I’m not sure how it would work out for me in practice, but 6 grams of sodium a day is a lot of salt. The nice thing about starches is you can mix the salt throughout so that the salty flavor isn’t so concentrated; putting that kind of salt on a slab or slices of steak is going to taste reallt, really salty.

I believe you that getting enough salt is important for you. And yes, 6 grams would be a lot to try to pile on a small amount of meat.
I still had to drink, and seemed to benefit from stocks, both from greens and from gelatinous meat.
There was a thread with some discussion about salt and milk. I think it said the Ayurvedic tradition discouraged putting salt in fresh (uncurdled) milk because it made digesting it difficult. (I don't drink milk, and my high fruit juice experiment is tapering down to low fruit juice, with some broth, water, sometimes other things.)

 

[sladerunner69]

I take most of my salt popped back directly on to my tongue, given a second to mix with saliva, then chased with whatever beverage I am having. I have been on high salt for around a year, I get 5+ grams a day. I got turned on to this by listening to Dr. F. Batmanghelidj, who wrote 'Your Body's Many Cries for Water', which is a dumb title because it is all about salt really. According to him his patients have much better results when the salt is placed directly on the tongue (vs mixed in to water first).

P.S. I hope everyone knows to stick with rock-salts, as salt from today's ocean is highly contaminated.

So any brand of sea salt is no good, you say?

 

[Captain_Coconut]

So any brand of sea salt is no good, you say?

There might be some that are okay, but all will likely have some contamination at this point, and who is to say what you are being sold is highly regulated or not. Kinda like how tricky olive oil is.

Anthropogenic contamination of tap water, beer, and sea salt

Edit: Evidently rock-salt is contaminated too?! Must be cut with something else?? Or processed with polluted water?? Hmmm. Maybe ancient civilizations really used plastic microbeads hah.