Quitting TRT +various Anabolics After 2 Years On; First Results

[benaoao]

First of all I’d like to say that I will do a more thorough blood work later on this summer. I kept this one minimal for reasons below.

Context: I’ve been injecting T non stop for 2 years. Was 27yo when I got started, turning 30 in 3 weeks (damn).
Mostly T around 150mg/wk with short anabolic cycles every other month or so, 4-6wk on 6-8wk off always. My goal was to reach 6’3 230lbs 10% fat and I came a tiny bit short of it, 225 10.5% on one of my DXAs iirc. That was close… eventually I decided that I was done with it all and it was time to hop off.

As a natural I had total T 800 ng/dl free T 1% and e2 10 pg/ml. Also high cholesterol and low insulin, so it’s rather clear my low carb diet wasn’t suiting me at all at the time, but it took me a lot of personal research lately to get a better grasp. I’ve eventually halved my LDL in the process.

The very last injection was on April 2nd.

Then I ran this PCT:

• HCG 500iu April 2,4,6,8,10,12th
• Nolva (doses PER WEEK) 60/60/40/30/20/10/5 last quarter tab was on May 27th. I went with my conviction that SERMs are mega overdosed on forums and even on Pubmed quite often.
• Asin 6.25mg at most 2x per week, mostly because I’ve had a blood test on TRT where T and e2 were 600/60, and a couple other bloods on trt where SHBG was low. So I figured I’d benefit from a bit of AI.

Been feeling pretty good generally besides a noticeable drop at the gym - no big deal. Libido is back to what it was pre-TRT; very low, but very functional when I’m with my GF.

Bloods drawn on June 6th so 10 days after the last 5mg of Nolva:
- Total T 346 ng/dl RANGE {264-916}
- LH 2.9 mIU/ml RANGE {1.7-8.6}
- FSH 3.4 mIU/ml RANGE {1.5-12.4}
- E2 10.8 pg/ml RANGE {7.6-42.6}

I think using clomid now should be a good idea to support the HPTA some more.

I’d guess that mid-high range LH and FSH would yield mid-range T and E2 at least. I also have torem on hand and I’m thinking of combining both doing 12.5/30mg e3d.

I’ll update in the future after the combined SERM therapy+ bloodwork. Goal is to wean off the Clomid and then taper off Torem. After 2 years being suppressed I wouldn’t expect a full restart before 6 months, I’m actually happy with being in range within 10 weeks of the last injection.

 

[ddjd]

I’ve eventually halved my LDL in the process.

How did you do this

 

[benaoao]

Less than 15% of my calories from animal foods
Less than 20% of my calories from fats. Low PUFAs obviously.

Cutting off all supplements and powders besides collagen 40g /day. I’ve had good results switching all pills for topical products for my hair thickness and length, it used to be itching badly

Using cronometer to fine tune all ratios and eventually shop the same 20-30 foods all the time

 

[TheBeard]

I think the good idea is to let your HPTA recover by itself.

Clomid is a poison and will ruin your mental health and love life, trust me on this

 

[benaoao]

Actually @TheBeard you’re right I think. Thank you for making me think ha.

My e2 is low enough I don’t need to keep using estrogen antagonists (especially if they’re mixed agonists). The HPTA should pump hormones by itself from now on if it does sense the low levels.

I’ll give it a few months because thats how it works it seems. All this with zero supplement that could ever interfere with e2, zinc vitamin D vitamin E... all were already discontinued and this will stay this way.

 

[benaoao]

Actually thought of it some more. This e2 is too low. Best solution I could find (not dianabol 2.5/5mg...) would be 10 to 15mg of DHEA taken orally. I’ll take the small estrogen increase...

Actually there’s this very good study on older men who took 25mg for 12 months

Long-term low-dose dehydroepiandrosterone replacement therapy in aging males with partial androgen deficiency
AR Genazzani, S Inglese, I Lombardi, M Pieri, F Bernardi

I screenshotted a few graphs. I don’t know what else is needed? Doubling all hormones whilst barely being suppressive. Not bad at all.


BCC6 EFD6 D7 B0 46 DF 945 E CFFBC7 BBE0 AC
https://ibb.co/cq3xpd
https://ibb.co/fCDaaJ

 

[charlie]

shop the same 20-30 foods all the time

Care to share said list?

 

[vulture]

H

Actually thought of it some more. This e2 is too low. Best solution I could find (not dianabol 2.5/5mg...) would be 10 to 15mg of DHEA taken orally. I’ll take the small estrogen increase...

Actually there’s this very good study on older men who took 25mg for 12 months

Long-term low-dose dehydroepiandrosterone replacement therapy in aging males with partial androgen deficiency
AR Genazzani, S Inglese, I Lombardi, M Pieri, F Bernardi

I screenshotted a few graphs. I don’t know what else is needed? Doubling all hormones whilst barely being suppressive. Not bad at all.


BCC6 EFD6 D7 B0 46 DF 945 E CFFBC7 BBE0 AC
9906 FB57 0 C0 D 4 B75 9 D59 2079 BD486 BBA
C8756 F7 F 90 E8 4 CC0 A629 C805 CFD7 C068

How did they take the DHEA? Orally?
I've thought about using DHEA in DMSO along with Methylene blue, vitamins/minerals and white button mushrooms to reduce aromatization.

 

[TheBeard]

Actually thought of it some more. This e2 is too low. Best solution I could find (not dianabol 2.5/5mg...) would be 10 to 15mg of DHEA taken orally. I’ll take the small estrogen increase...

Actually there’s this very good study on older men who took 25mg for 12 months

Long-term low-dose dehydroepiandrosterone replacement therapy in aging males with partial androgen deficiency
AR Genazzani, S Inglese, I Lombardi, M Pieri, F Bernardi

I screenshotted a few graphs. I don’t know what else is needed? Doubling all hormones whilst barely being suppressive. Not bad at all.


BCC6 EFD6 D7 B0 46 DF 945 E CFFBC7 BBE0 AC
9906 FB57 0 C0 D 4 B75 9 D59 2079 BD486 BBA
C8756 F7 F 90 E8 4 CC0 A629 C805 CFD7 C068

So you had second thoughts and came with the genius idea of taking something that will further hinder your recovery?

 

[goodandevil]

First of all I’d like to say that I will do a more thorough blood work later on this summer. I kept this one minimal for reasons below.

Context: I’ve been injecting T non stop for 2 years. Was 27yo when I got started, turning 30 in 3 weeks (damn).
Mostly T around 150mg/wk with short anabolic cycles every other month or so, 4-6wk on 6-8wk off always. My goal was to reach 6’3 230lbs 10% fat and I came a tiny bit short of it, 225 10.5% on one of my DXAs iirc. That was close… eventually I decided that I was done with it all and it was time to hop off.

As a natural I had total T 800 ng/dl free T 1% and e2 10 pg/ml. Also high cholesterol and low insulin, so it’s rather clear my low carb diet wasn’t suiting me at all at the time, but it took me a lot of personal research lately to get a better grasp. I’ve eventually halved my LDL in the process.

The very last injection was on April 2nd.

Then I ran this PCT:

• HCG 500iu April 2,4,6,8,10,12th
• Nolva (doses PER WEEK) 60/60/40/30/20/10/5 last quarter tab was on May 27th. I went with my conviction that SERMs are mega overdosed on forums and even on Pubmed quite often.
• Asin 6.25mg at most 2x per week, mostly because I’ve had a blood test on TRT where T and e2 were 600/60, and a couple other bloods on trt where SHBG was low. So I figured I’d benefit from a bit of AI.

Been feeling pretty good generally besides a noticeable drop at the gym - no big deal. Libido is back to what it was pre-TRT; very low, but very functional when I’m with my GF.

Bloods drawn on June 6th so 10 days after the last 5mg of Nolva:
- Total T 346 ng/dl RANGE {264-916}
- LH 2.9 mIU/ml RANGE {1.7-8.6}
- FSH 3.4 mIU/ml RANGE {1.5-12.4}
- E2 10.8 pg/ml RANGE {7.6-42.6}

I think using clomid now should be a good idea to support the HPTA some more.

I’d guess that mid-high range LH and FSH would yield mid-range T and E2 at least. I also have torem on hand and I’m thinking of combining both doing 12.5/30mg e3d.

I’ll update in the future after the combined SERM therapy+ bloodwork. Goal is to wean off the Clomid and then taper off Torem. After 2 years being suppressed I wouldn’t expect a full restart before 6 months, I’m actually happy with being in range within 10 weeks of the last injection.

Low-dose naltrexone would be worth looking into to stimulate LH.

 

[benaoao]

So you had second thoughts and came with the genius idea of taking something that will further hinder your recovery?

What’s this genius post based on?

 

[benaoao]

H

How did they take the DHEA? Orally?
I've thought about using DHEA in DMSO along with Methylene blue, vitamins/minerals and white button mushrooms to reduce aromatization.

25mg orally at 8am. Although no placebo control group.

I think Ray and haidut have talked about 10ish mg being the upper limit before getting estrogen sides, so I’m guessing 12.5mg could suit me best. But realistically doubling my e2 seems very desirable.

I found a pre-T blood test where my T was around 800 with LH/FSH middle of the range. E2 was still stuck at 10, and free T was 1%.

 

[raypeatclips]

Care to share said list?

+1 intrigued by the list too.

 

[benaoao]

Oops. There:

• 2-4 random fruits per day
• Cranberries
• Lettuce
• Avocados
• Beets
• Carrots
• Yams / squash / potatoes / White rice / Lentils / peas / bananas (one starch or legume per day)
• Coconut flakes
• Cod liver (canned)
• Oysters
• Wild caught fish bi weekly
• Mushrooms
• Spinach (frozen, lots of it)

+ruminant liver every other week
+random nuts/almonds/pistachios/seeds

 

[TheBeard]

What’s this genius post based on?

On the fact that popping DHEA means introducing yet another exogenous hormone when you are trying to recover, which is counterproductive.

I’m not going to spoonfeed you all the studies confirming DHEA is suppressive of the HPTA, a quick Google search will satisfy you.

If you want to get a better grasp of how hormones work, I suggest you start scrolling a few selected steroid forums instead of spending your time on here.

 

[benaoao]

On the fact that popping DHEA means introducing yet another exogenous hormone when you are trying to recover, which is counterproductive.

I’m not going to spoonfeed you all the studies confirming DHEA is suppressive of the HPTA, a quick Google search will satisfy you.

If you want to get a better grasp of how hormones work, I suggest you start scrolling a few selected steroid forums instead of spending your time on here.

Okay genius, I’m a pharmacist and you are...?Do you understand a bloodwork? Any Nutrition and Physiology bases maybe?

Cared to read the post above with the graphs showing you you’re dead wrong and obviously have no idea that the dose makes the suppression?

Anyways. Avoiding clomid is probably the only half clever thing you said, even though I’m 100% convinced that you’ve been overdosing it like all the steroid forums idiots you seem to be looking up to. You shouldn’t really post when you obviously have 0 clue what you’re talking about besides “hurr durrr high doses of stuff are dangerous”. No ***t?

Toremifene and its high androgenic/estrogenic ratio is the other compound I’m thinking of on top of DHEA. I’ll update in a couple months after being settled on a hormonal combination to further speed up the restart.

 

[Insaneacinamide]

Hey buddy, good luck with restoring your hormones

I just Googled "is dhea suppressive of the HPTA" and first thing that came up said: "My take on it being HPTA surpressive is no, it is not. Here is a good summary of what it does: DHEA is as a precursor hormone, meaning that it is a source material which the body converts into other hormones. It is used in making hormones such as estrogen and testosterone."

I've done 100mg dhea a day for around 2.5 months a long time ago. No shut down on testosterone/lh/fsh when I took a blood test. Actually made my testicles larger.

Another pct medicine I see sometimes used is HMG, along side hcg/clomid/and some type of AI.
Menotropin - Wikipedia

 

[vulture]

Low-dose naltrexone would be worth looking into to stimulate LH.

that's quiet interesting. I had low LH low FSH, below range. I'm trying to improve T levels, I'm usually around 200-400. Would this be sustainable? do you have some good info on it?

EDIT: more info
Naltrexone effects on male sexual behavior, corticosterone, and testosterone in stressed male rats. - PubMed - NCBI
Seems pretty interesting drug

 

[Wagner83]

25mg orally at 8am. Although no placebo control group.

I think Ray and haidut have talked about 10ish mg being the upper limit before getting estrogen sides, so I’m guessing 12.5mg could suit me best. But realistically doubling my e2 seems very desirable.

I found a pre-T blood test where my T was around 800 with LH/FSH middle of the range. E2 was still stuck at 10, and free T was 1%.

If you search this forum for dhea experiences you'll see a majority of members struggle with even lower doses, and a few have good benefits from it. I'm sometimes unsure what studies mean when in the real world the results are so different.

 

[benaoao]

It’s probably related to the general life context and what the blood works were. Many people supplement hormones with no valid reason to get started with them imo

I’m always thinking to myself when I read a study - can I relate to the subjects? I obviously need higher estrogen and testosterone and so on, with my current grandpa levels. Is my diet in check 100%? Am i spending time outside? How is my life stress? Those are keys too.

I wouldn’t touch dhea if my e2 were already in the 20/30+