Questions On Sugar

[pone]

I know Ray Peat is pretty fond of sugar as a primary staple in the diet. Can someone explain a few random issues around that:

* Why does he prefer sugar over eating 50% fructose from fruit and 50% glucose from starchy carbs? In theory those are chemically identical.

* What does he say when a prediabetic eats sugar and has blood glucose go from 90 to 160 one hour after the meal, consistently, when they ingest sugar. He thinks wild glucose excursions are okay?

 

[nikotrope]

RP doesn't say sugar should be a primary staple in the diet.

A daily diet that includes two quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice provides enough fructose and other sugars for general resistance to stress, but larger amounts of fruit juice, honey, or other sugars can protect against increased stress, and can reverse some of the established degenerative conditions.

Refined granulated sugar is extremely pure, but it lacks all of the essential nutrients, so it should be considered as a temporary therapeutic material, or as an occasional substitute when good fruit isn't available, or when available honey is allergenic.

Source: http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/sugar-issues.shtml

He prefers ripe fruits and even honey to sugar. Personally I don't see how honey is better for nutrients, honey doesn't have a lot of nutrients, unrefined sugar has a similar nutrient profile and like honey can be allergenic for some people.

 

[PeatMonster]

I'm not sure where people get the idea that Ray Peat favors refined sugar to other sugar sources. When he uses the word "sugar" he means "foods that contain glucose, sucrose, fructose or lactose." He clearly prefers fruit to refined sugar, due to the presence of nutrients, especially potassium and magnesium.

Also to Ray Peat, starch and glucose are not equivalent. He thinks that starch granules can get into the bloodstream before they fully break down and cause problems.

Fruit also isn't fully fructose as you may have implied. Fruit usually has about the same glucose - sucrose- fructose ratio as refined sugar.

 

[pboy]

peatmoster said it, fruit is almost half fructose glucose with some sucrose in there, maybe a hint more fructose with some fruit...youd only need like a few hundred calories glucose at the most to get a 1:1 ratio even if you ate a lot of fruit. Diabetes is simply when there aren't enough nutrients present to actually metabolise the food. Its a temporary thing that goes directly with what you've eaten, that day, those hours. You need a ceratain amount of potassium and mag especially for sugar, but also all the b vits, minerals protein, ect. Therefore you shouldbe getting most carbs from fruit and roots and youll never have any blood sugar or diabetic issues. Sugar shold only be used with other foods that are abundant in K and Mg to their own amount of carbs, such as, same thing, milk, some fruit, and root veg, and you shouldn't overdo it. If the sugar tastes too sweet like kind of offensive syrup like then its too much, there aren't enough nurients present with it. The sugar should always be underneath the flavor, the body, of the thing youre eating

 

[johns74]

^ diabetes can also be independent of what you ate that day. you can damage your beta cells with polyunsaturated fats, and i'm pretty sure it takes them more than a day to recover even with perfect diet.

 

[cout12]

peatmoster said it, fruit is almost half fructose glucose with some sucrose in there, maybe a hint more fructose with some fruit...youd only need like a few hundred calories glucose at the most to get a 1:1 ratio even if you ate a lot of fruit. Diabetes is simply when there aren't enough nutrients present to actually metabolise the food. Its a temporary thing that goes directly with what you've eaten, that day, those hours. You need a ceratain amount of potassium and mag especially for sugar, but also all the b vits, minerals protein, ect. Therefore you shouldbe getting most carbs from fruit and roots and youll never have any blood sugar or diabetic issues. Sugar shold only be used with other foods that are abundant in K and Mg to their own amount of carbs, such as, same thing, milk, some fruit, and root veg, and you shouldn't overdo it. If the sugar tastes too sweet like kind of offensive syrup like then its too much, there aren't enough nurients present with it. The sugar should always be underneath the flavor, the body, of the thing youre eating

why would powdered sugar give diabetes? It seems to me like you could eat a a cup or 2 of sugar a day and be perfectly fine. I've certainly done it many times. I do drink at least 1 liter of milk and OJ everyday though, I'm not sure if that's what you mean by getting enough potassium.

I actually feel pretty amazing energy wise from eating powdered sugar in big quantity. I hope it's not affecting my health negatively.

 

[pboy]

na if you feel good then you haven't overdone it, youll feel kind of sour stomach and anti sugar if you've had too much, OJ and milk have extra minerals to give, notably potassium, so if your sugar amount still falls within that range it will be metabolized well. That would be with any sugar actually, I think Peat thinks fructose stimulates metabolism a bit more than the others but you wouldn't notice it that much, tho potentially a little...if nothing else the sweetness of taste gets things stimulated

 

[natedawggh]

I know Ray Peat is pretty fond of sugar as a primary staple in the diet. Can someone explain a few random issues around that:

* Why does he prefer sugar over eating 50% fructose from fruit and 50% glucose from starchy carbs? In theory those are chemically identical.

* What does he say when a prediabetic eats sugar and has blood glucose go from 90 to 160 one hour after the meal, consistently, when they ingest sugar. He thinks wild glucose excursions are okay?

None of this is correct. Ray Peat does not necessarily use the word sugar to mean table sugar, when he says sugar he means all sugars, and in specific contexts he refers to fructose, fruit, glucose, starches, and other sugars. It is context specific.

Starchy carbs as well vary in their molecular makeup. Grain starch is structurally different than fruit starch, or tuber starch, and grain starch as well comes with compounds that are more allergenic that the sources of fruit sugar and starch or tubers, so just talking about 50% glucose from starchy carbs includes a wide variety of different things, too many of which have very allergenic and/or estrogenic properties. This is not chemically identical at all, and in fact you would have meant to say molecularly identical, of course which they are not.

If a pre diabetic has trouble with sugar he would say they have trouble with sugar and should take steps to improve their metabolism of sugar. I don't know where you get the idea that he says "wild glucose excursions are okay," because that isn't even grammatically correct. Dr. Peat specifically addresses deficits in sugar metaboslim as harmful to the body, and has many papers discussing ways to address these issues.

 

[pone]

RP doesn't say sugar should be a primary staple in the diet.

Has he ever committed to a percent of calories ingested that he thinks should come from sugars?

 

[pone]

Fruit also isn't fully fructose as you may have implied. Fruit usually has about the same glucose - sucrose- fructose ratio as refined sugar.

So would Ray prefer that you get most of your sugar calories from fruit, and avoid starchy carbs?

 

[pone]

Dr. Peat specifically addresses deficits in sugar metaboslim as harmful to the body, and has many papers discussing ways to address these issues.

Do you have pointers to any specific papers that you think do a good job of summarizing how Ray Peat approaches prediabetes?

 

[PeatMonster]

Fruit also isn't fully fructose as you may have implied. Fruit usually has about the same glucose - sucrose- fructose ratio as refined sugar.

So would Ray prefer that you get most of your sugar calories from fruit, and avoid starchy carbs?

Definitely. In at least one place he recommends that half your total calories come from "fruit."

 

[barbwirehouse]

I believe, according to Ray, he says that refined sugar is fine in moderation when you've got your nutrients covered by other foodsources.

Sugar from fruit is not equivalent to table sugar.

 

[tara]

I just want to add one more Peaty point to all the good responses above. My understanding is that in addition to the risks associated with starch granules, starches also tend to take longer to digest than simpler sugars, and therefore to provide more food for intestinal bacteria. This can lead to a higher endotoxin levels in the gut, and higher endotoxin load on liver and other organs. For some people this may be a key issue.
I think Peat has said that for some people, with particularly unfavourable balance of intestinal microbiota, starch is best avoided altogether.
(Aside: I guess this is consistent with the SCD diet.)

I don't think Peat thinks drs should panic and immediately diagnose diabetes on the basis of one or two high blood glucose readings, and without also testing insulin levels appropriately. As said above, try to figure out what's interfering with efficient glucose metabolism. Make sure all nutrients required are supplied. I think Peat has at times recommended brewers yeast to treat diabetes (but not otherwise). Can steep in hot water or boil, pour off and drink the liquid, dscard the solids, so as to get most of teh soluble B vitamins and potassium, but hopefully discard most of the estrogen withthe solids.

I'd recommend going to his website and reading all the articles with sugar or glucose in the title, if you haven't already.

 

[Aussiepopeye]

how much sugar from fruit are you meant to consume? I'm confused about this.. :/

One suggestion has been have sugar equal protein intake or slightly above. Yet if peat suggests 80-100gram for protein then thats the same amount for sugar right?
So if 1 litre of OJ here ( pulp free and nasty free) has 80gram of sugar then is that all i drink or 4 pieces of fruit eqivialent throughout the day- i.e. 1 cup of grapes is 22 grams of sugar. All with a separate meal throughout the day.

yesterday for example, thinking I'm slowly sorting this out: my calories were 1950, carbs 227, fat 43, protein 159 and sugar 204 grams.
am i doing something wrong and ate too much fruit yesterday? i was trying to keep them even but then this happened. and i was a starving marvin yesterday which didn't help

 

[tara]

I don't think you are overeating carbs or sugar - wouldn't surprise me if you could use more. Listen to that hunger. :)
Maybe Peat has suggested that any particular meal should have at least 1:1 carbs to protein, though I'm not sure about this. Generally, I get the impression he would recommend more sugar for most people on a daily basis - at least 2:1 and maybe more.
I can't claim success with solving my own issues yet, but I usually aim roughly for 300-400g carbs and 100g protein (but don't measure rigorously).

 

[mt_dreams]

Ray eats half his daily intake of calories from fruit sugar & to a lesser degree milk sugar, so don't worry you did not eat too much sugar. Ideally you want at least a 2:1 ratio of sugar to protein (the fact that Peat eats that much of his calories as sugar would suggest this to be true). So if you are eating 160 grams of protein, aiming for at least 320 grams of sugar may be beneficial for optimum protein intake. Some people on this forum go as high as 4:1 sugar to protein. For ex, I eat roughly 2800 cal a day, and 1400 (350g) comes from honey, fruit, & milk sugar. amounting to roughly a 3:1 sugar to protein

Like tara said, feed the hunger. If you notice yourself thinking about food, then eat/drink something.

 

[Aussiepopeye]

Ok. It's a work in progress! Thankyou

 

[pone]

I just want to add one more Peaty point to all the good responses above. My understanding is that in addition to the risks associated with starch granules, starches also tend to take longer to digest than simpler sugars, and therefore to provide more food for intestinal bacteria. This can lead to a higher endotoxin levels in the gut, and higher endotoxin load on liver and other organs. For some people this may be a key issue.
I think Peat has said that for some people, with particularly unfavourable balance of intestinal microbiota, starch is best avoided altogether.
(Aside: I guess this is consistent with the SCD diet.)

You just made me realize some important points by cross referencing the specific carbohydrate diet (SCD):

* Many fruits contain glucose and fructose as monosaccharides rather than as sucrose. Many of the gastro studies around SCD diets confirm that - for whatever reason - sucrose tends to not digest well for some people and seems to cause endotoxin issues. Monosaccharides digest much better for such patients. This is why fruit may be a better source of carbs in the diet.

* NOT ALL FRUIT is free of sucrose. So you actually have to research that issue if you want to be a purist. Berries tend to be very low on sucrose as well as very nutritious so those are always a good choice. Many fruits like apple, banana, pineapple, mangoes contain high sucrose loads, so those foods are probably non optimal for someone who has gastro IBD type issues.

Do you have any good references to studies on the endotoxin issue? I think that is a key insight.

Why does Peat avoid saturated and monounsaturated fats as a primary calorie source? I understand the issues with polyunsaturated fats.

 

[tara]

You just made me realize some important points by cross referencing the symbol carbohydrate diet (SCD):

* Many fruits contain glucose and fructose as monosaccharides rather than as sucrose. Many of the gastro studies around SCD diets confirm that - for whatever reason - sucrose tends to not digest well for some people and seems to cause endotoxin issues. Monosaccharides digest much better for such patients. This is why fruit may be a better source of carbs in the diet.

* NOT ALL FRUIT is free of sucrose. So you actually have to research that issue if you want to be a purist. Berries tend to be very low on sucrose as well as very nutritious so those are always a good choice. Many fruits like apple, banana, pineapple, mangoes contain high sucrose loads, so those foods are probably non optimal for someone who has gastro IBD type issues.

Do you have any good references to studies on the endotoxin issue? I think that is a key insight.

Why does Peat avoid saturated and monounsaturated fats as a primary calorie source? I understand the issues with polyunsaturated fats.

SCD=Specific Carbohydrate Diet?
My understanding is that for many people, disaccharides (eg sucrose) digest much easier (and faster) than starches, and that's good enough for most people. But for a few people, breaking down disaccharides can be a problem (eg low sucrase production), and that's where the distinctions you make between free monosaccharides vs surose in fruits can be important. Some fruits contain a bit of starch (eg bananas, some apples), so that can be an issue for some people too. Berries have some good things going for them, though the skins and seeds can be a negative, and I'd find it hard to eat enough of them to meet calorie needs, even if I could afford them.

I don't have refs to specific studies about endotoxins, but Peat talks about them quite a bit. I got the impression that the toxic effects of lipopolysaccharides (endotoxin) were well established scientifically. You could search his website for those two key words, if you are interested.

Why sugar beats fat as main fuel:
1. All natural fat sources contain some PUFAs, so if you eat a lot of fat, even if it is mostly saturated, you get more than ideal amounts of unsaturated fats.
The unsaturation is a problem, so polyunsaturated fats have more unsaturated bonds, but monounsaturated fats also have some.
2. Also, CO2 production is very important for many metabolic processes, including maintaining a good supply of oxygen to tissues. If I've understood it right, oxidising fat produces less CO2 than oxidising sugars, so burning sugars tends to be more supportive of metabolism.
3. Some tissues, including importantly the brain, require sugar for fuel. If you don't eat enough sugar, stress hormones are called forth to create it from protein. This tends to have catabolic effects.
4. Sugar is required for some metabolic processes, eg to convert T4 to T3, and to support generation of pancreatic beta cells. So too little sugar can reduce T3 levels, and worsen diabetic issues.
5. Randle 'cycle': high levels of circulating fats tend to suppress sugar oxidation, and can worsen 'insulin-resistance' type problems.
6. ...?
I hope others will correct me if I've got these wrong, or add what I've missed.