Question about how cypro induces weight gain

[redsun]

I am aware of many big issues with this but a long time ago I came across Chris Masterjohn and choline. There’s a tool on his website where you can upload your genome. I remember based on certain SNPs I have that I needed triple the choline intake but not sure if that’s actually relevant. I know RP isn’t big on the methylation thing but nothing brought me closer long term than all of that and it’s probably because of acetylcholine. Once again thank you. I don’t have any other questions and at this point I just need to try a few things and read more.

That's interesting in regards to your increased needs for choline based on your own genetics. I do think it is very relevant and you should also take this into consideration while you work on this on your own. Besides the vitamin A, and all other things we just discussed that is likely a major factor, genetic differences probably contributes greatly to the increased rates of anxiety, panic disorders, social anxiety, ADHD, etc in the modern day where the average person does not even get the so called adequate intake of choline set by guidelines, let alone more based on individual needs. You can PM if you want later if you ever feel the need. Good luck.

 

[deliciousfruit]

Yeh cypro is like alcohol in this way. Its obviously not damaging like alcohol, but its a downer and makes you forget about your problems and make them seem less problematic.

If you have bad digestion cypro will worsen it even more.

What you described (normal temps and cold extremities) has nothing to do with your thyroid. In fact when your metabolism burns through your glycogen quickly (which stimulants do and thyroid can do) this gets worse. Because the problem is noradrenaline is too high. It elevates in response to many things, and its highly implicated in being involved in autistic symptoms. It also promotes vasoconstriction in the extremities, hence ice cold hands if its bad enough. Sympathetic dominance, low cholinergic activity also causes terrible digestion.

The major neurotransmitter that antagonizes excess sympathetic activity and noradrenaline is acetylcholine. You probably need to raise this. This will help cold extremities, digestion and this will calm down the nervous system and reduce impulsive, "autism" related behaviors by giving your nervous system more inhibitory control over your behavior. A calm nervous system is also needed to socialize.

Acetylcholine speeds up brain function, is necessary for verbal fluency and thinking and calming the nervous system by antagonizing sympathetic activity, which can promote manic and odd behaviors.

Do you know what could cause a parasympathetic-dominance state, where the sympathetic nervous system doesn't respond even to stress?

 

[redsun]

Do you know what could cause a parasympathetic-dominance state, where the sympathetic nervous system doesn't respond even to stress?

A parasympathetic dominant state is ideal. It means the body is relaxed and has the ability to respond to a stressor if necessary but it does not trigger an overexaggerated response to stress which is what something like anxiety is.

What you are describing actually is a crashed like state of the metabolism. It means the body is so drained you cannot mount a normal stress response to any form of stress. What usually contributes to this is severe depletion of resources due to too much stress or trauma of some kind , major nutritional deficiencies, poor lifestyle and dietary inadequacies, etc.

 

[deliciousfruit]

A parasympathetic dominant state is ideal. It means the body is relaxed and has the ability to respond to a stressor if necessary but it does not trigger an overexaggerated response to stress which is what something like anxiety is.

What you are describing actually is a crashed like state of the metabolism. It means the body is so drained you cannot mount a normal stress response to any form of stress. What usually contributes to this is severe depletion of resources due to too much stress or trauma of some kind , major nutritional deficiencies, poor lifestyle and dietary inadequacies, etc.

Thanks. That's what seems to have happened to me. I have this problem where after experiencing any sort of stress (exercise, emotional, gut-related, etc.) I get severe ADHD for about a half a day or so. I was thinking if ADHD is treated by increasing catecholamines, perhaps in a state where increased catecholamines are required (stress), having that lack of sympathetic nervous system activity would be what's causing the phenomenon.

 

[redsun]

Thanks. That's what seems to have happened to me. I have this problem where after experiencing any sort of stress (exercise, emotional, gut-related, etc.) I get severe ADHD for about a half a day or so. I was thinking if ADHD is treated by increasing catecholamines, perhaps in a state where increased catecholamines are required (stress), having that lack of sympathetic nervous system activity would be what's causing the phenomenon.

I had a similar experience actually when I was copper deficient. The body cannot produce norepinephrine and epinephrine at normal rates with little copper in the body. Norepinephrine which is needed in the brain in high amounts for concentration and excitation of important brain regions tends to be low in ADHD. So any stress which always at least slightly increases norepinephrine needs gives you ADHD symptoms.

Usually once you sleep it allows levels to go back up again. But this does not happen in non-copper deficient individuals. We are supposed to be able to synthesize much more norepinephrine than that since it is heavily involved in other processes besides the stress response. Of course there are other issues causing adhd, but in your case probably poor copper status is the main thing screwing you over.

 

[deliciousfruit]

I had a similar experience actually when I was copper deficient. The body cannot produce norepinephrine and epinephrine at normal rates with little copper in the body. Norepinephrine which is needed in the brain in high amounts for concentration and excitation of important brain regions tends to be low in ADHD. So any stress which always at least slightly increases norepinephrine needs gives you ADHD symptoms.

Usually once you sleep it allows levels to go back up again. But this does not happen in non-copper deficient individuals. We are supposed to be able to synthesize much more norepinephrine than that since it is heavily involved in other processes besides the stress response. Of course there are other issues causing adhd, but in your case probably poor copper status is the main thing screwing you over.

Thank you for replying, I really appreciate it. Yes, I think a copper deficiency is playing a major part in this. I'm the guy from the other thread who thinks he caused himself a copper deficiency by taking lots of zinc, molybdenum, manganese, vitamin c, etc. The reason I did this in the first place was because I'd confidently say I'm a low-histamine individual, which as you know copper excess seems to play a major role in. I've tried supplementing copper bisglycinate but it caused severe paranoia/anxiety, restless legs, shortness of breath, etc.

I'm wondering if what's going on is a simultaneous copper and iron deficiency, coming from someone who had a minimal life-long intake of red meat, and then attempted to "reduce" iron for a year by doing a (dairy-based) Peat diet, aspirin, etc., and of course zinc/manganese supplementation. I do match the description of an iron deficient person very well despite blood markers being normal. Perhaps in a mixed deficiency, increasing copper first shuttles what little dopamine is being produced into the norepinephrine pathway, thus creating an imbalance (very low dopamine state - dopamine is pro-histamine right?) and the symptoms I'm experiencing. I'm currently waiting on a Proferrin supplement to arrive to test this iron hypothesis. Maybe I'll also try taking magnesium with the copper and see if that produces a different result.

 

[redsun]

Thank you for replying, I really appreciate it. Yes, I think a copper deficiency is playing a major part in this. I'm the guy from the other thread who thinks he caused himself a copper deficiency by taking lots of zinc, molybdenum, manganese, vitamin c, etc. The reason I did this in the first place was because I'd confidently say I'm a low-histamine individual, which as you know copper excess seems to play a major role in. I've tried supplementing copper bisglycinate but it caused severe paranoia/anxiety, restless legs, shortness of breath, etc.

I'm wondering if what's going on is a simultaneous copper and iron deficiency, coming from someone who had a minimal life-long intake of red meat, and then attempted to "reduce" iron for a year by doing a (dairy-based) Peat diet, aspirin, etc., and of course zinc/manganese supplementation. I do match the description of an iron deficient person very well despite blood markers being normal. Perhaps in a mixed deficiency, increasing copper first shuttles what little dopamine is being produced into the norepinephrine pathway, thus creating an imbalance (very low dopamine state - dopamine is pro-histamine right?) and the symptoms I'm experiencing. I'm currently waiting on a Proferrin supplement to arrive to test this iron hypothesis. Maybe I'll also try taking magnesium with the copper and see if that produces a different result.

Yeh of course you can definitely be deficient in more than one mineral and because of the relation between iron and copper this can give similar symptoms. You did however have a past diet with decent amounts of copper and you also said you currently consume potatoes which are a good source of copper as well. You could have had a negative reaction to the copper supplement because you don't need the copper and thus more is exacerbating some issues or you can just be reacting to the supplement since mineral supplements tend can cause side effects.

Things may make more sense once you test proferrin.

 

[PointOutside]

Thanks. That's what seems to have happened to me. I have this problem where after experiencing any sort of stress (exercise, emotional, gut-related, etc.) I get severe ADHD for about a half a day or so. I was thinking if ADHD is treated by increasing catecholamines, perhaps in a state where increased catecholamines are required (stress), having that lack of sympathetic nervous system activity would be what's causing the phenomenon.

I will say B6/Zinc/Magnesium can have significant effect. Get choline in too. I can vouch for @redsun advice on what to look at. I have significantly improved over these past few months.

I lived on noradrenaline my entire life. I have warm hands and feet, good temperatures (or rather less erratic) etc by focusing on lowering it. Because of that I was basically deficient in dopamine hence ADHD symptoms. I’m pretty calm now as a person and no longer anhedonic. Look at my post history for a glimpse of my previous terrible mental state.

One key thing I noticed is my lesser need of salt to lower adrenaline by making sure I have P-5-P (adequate B6.)

 

[redsun]

I will say B6/Zinc/Magnesium can have significant effect. Get choline in too. I can vouch for @redsun advice on what to look at. I have significantly improved over these past few months.

I lived on noradrenaline my entire life. I have warm hands and feet, good temperatures (or rather less erratic) etc by focusing on lowering it. Because of that I was basically deficient in dopamine hence ADHD symptoms. I’m pretty calm now as a person and no longer anhedonic. Look at my post history for a glimpse of my previous terrible mental state.

One key thing I noticed is my lesser need of salt to lower adrenaline by making sure I have P-5-P (adequate B6.)

Glad things are going well for you.

@deliciousfruit This post made me realize that your past intake of niacin could be the issue. Excess niacin intake depletes methyl donors which are needed to make endogenous choline for acetylcholine synthesis. You could have severely undermethylated yourself.

Low Ach can not only lead to ADHD symptoms, but it will also feel like your whole body is falling apart because Ach is needed for all parasympathetic and sympathetic processes. Digestion and stomach acid secretion is also dependent on Ach signalling. From what I understand in the other thread you do not eat meat or animal protein in general right? Also do you eat any eggs? Dairy has almost no choline. You should examine your choline intake in your diet. You likely are not even reaching close to the bare minimum needs for choline.

You likely are very deficient in choline if you do not consume much animal protein at all. And if this is the case, digestion will weak or nonexistent. Likely you need to try and supplement phosphatidylcholine from sunflower lecithin. PointOutside also supplemented it for different reasons but in your case it seems the low choline issue can definitely apply to you because of a history of a low animal protein diet, and high dose niacin which depletes methyl groups used to make endogenous choline.

So it may be a mineral issue, or it may not be that at all and you just choline so your acetylcholine levels can increase to properly signal normal digestive functions.

 

[PointOutside]

Glad things are going well for you.

@deliciousfruit This post made me realize that your past intake of niacin could be the issue. Excess niacin intake depletes methyl donors which are needed to make endogenous choline for acetylcholine synthesis. You could have severely undermethylated yourself.

Low Ach can not only lead to ADHD symptoms, but it will also feel like your whole body is falling apart because Ach is needed for all parasympathetic and sympathetic processes. Digestion and stomach acid secretion is also dependent on Ach signalling. From what I understand in the other thread you do not eat meat or animal protein in general right? Also do you eat any eggs? Dairy has almost no choline. You should examine your choline intake in your diet. You likely are not even reaching close to the bare minimum needs for choline.

You likely are very deficient in choline if you do not consume much animal protein at all. And if this is the case, digestion will weak or nonexistent. Likely you need to try and supplement phosphatidylcholine from sunflower lecithin. PointOutside also supplemented it for different reasons but in your case it seems the low choline issue can definitely apply to you because of a history of a low animal protein diet, and high dose niacin which depletes methyl groups used to make endogenous choline.

So it may be a mineral issue, or it may not be that at all and you just choline so your acetylcholine levels can increase to properly signal normal digestive functions.

Just to add on, Alpha GPC is a quick way to flood the body with choline although it's not very physiological. I used it as an experiment early on in very small doses. Sunflower lecithin is much better for long-term use. After a while I can rely on just eggs now.

 

[Nebula]

Excess niacin intake depletes methyl donors

I’ve supplemented high dose niacinamide in the past and wonder if I’m still depleted. Any thoughts on how long it takes to replete methyl donors after stopping high doses of B3? Or what a good strategy for restoring it might be?

 

[redsun]

I’ve supplemented high dose niacinamide in the past and wonder if I’m still depleted. Any thoughts on how long it takes to replete methyl donors after stopping high doses of B3? Or what a good strategy for restoring it might be?

Usually eating enough dietary sources of methyl donors which are methionine, choline, betaine/TMG (which is found in flour products and other things) should help somewhat. But sometimes its not so simple, especially if you have methylation issues. Usually you would display typical undermethylation symptoms if it was bad enough.

You can always try taking TMG supplement and see how you react. Completely safe to try for a short time.

 

[deliciousfruit]

I will say B6/Zinc/Magnesium can have significant effect. Get choline in too. I can vouch for @redsun advice on what to look at. I have significantly improved over these past few months.

I lived on noradrenaline my entire life. I have warm hands and feet, good temperatures (or rather less erratic) etc by focusing on lowering it. Because of that I was basically deficient in dopamine hence ADHD symptoms. I’m pretty calm now as a person and no longer anhedonic. Look at my post history for a glimpse of my previous terrible mental state.

One key thing I noticed is my lesser need of salt to lower adrenaline by making sure I have P-5-P (adequate B6.)

I'm glad that you've improved over the past months!

Weirdly, I have a very similar bad reaction to all 3 of those. Magnesium I can take in low doses just fine (though it is definitely depressive, I only use it for restless legs and similar problems), but a high dose of magnesium, or even low dose Zinc (~12.5mg) or B6 (P5P) cause severe rumination, suicidal ideation, hopelessness, helplessness, crying, overthinking, etc. I think I'm definitely stuck in a parasympathetic / high acetylcholine state, as I normally have these symptoms but just not as severe.

I do actually take choline though, in the form of sunflower lecithin, quite a lot too. I only began taking it about a month ago, and it doesn't worsen any of these symptoms strangely enough, and I have experimented with it plenty, stopping it completely for a while for example then starting again without anything changing.

Glad things are going well for you.

@deliciousfruit This post made me realize that your past intake of niacin could be the issue. Excess niacin intake depletes methyl donors which are needed to make endogenous choline for acetylcholine synthesis. You could have severely undermethylated yourself.

Low Ach can not only lead to ADHD symptoms, but it will also feel like your whole body is falling apart because Ach is needed for all parasympathetic and sympathetic processes. Digestion and stomach acid secretion is also dependent on Ach signalling. From what I understand in the other thread you do not eat meat or animal protein in general right? Also do you eat any eggs? Dairy has almost no choline. You should examine your choline intake in your diet. You likely are not even reaching close to the bare minimum needs for choline.

You likely are very deficient in choline if you do not consume much animal protein at all. And if this is the case, digestion will weak or nonexistent. Likely you need to try and supplement phosphatidylcholine from sunflower lecithin. PointOutside also supplemented it for different reasons but in your case it seems the low choline issue can definitely apply to you because of a history of a low animal protein diet, and high dose niacin which depletes methyl groups used to make endogenous choline.

So it may be a mineral issue, or it may not be that at all and you just choline so your acetylcholine levels can increase to properly signal normal digestive functions.

Thank you a lot for replying again. What I said above is relevant concerning the choline/methyl intake, which I get a lot of.

Yes I don't eat any animal protein unfortunately, I seem to have severely low stomach acid and thus indigestion. When I first began taking niacin like you suggest for low stomach acid it actually did give me that iron stomach feeling, but sadly I only got that effect a few times and was never able to reproduce it again since, even after taking long breaks from it. It also made me feel amazing in other ways, such as restoring my libido, orgasm, and penile sensitivity for the first time in years, as well as absolutely demolishing my anxiety - it felt how I'd imagine benzos feeling.

I still seem to be in a overly parasympathetic / high acetylcholine state though, despite my completely dysfunctional digestion. I never have ADHD symptoms normally too, only after stress.

 

[PointOutside]

I'm glad that you've improved over the past months!

Weirdly, I have a very similar bad reaction to all 3 of those. Magnesium I can take in low doses just fine (though it is definitely depressive, I only use it for restless legs and similar problems), but a high dose of magnesium, or even low dose Zinc (~12.5mg) or B6 (P5P) cause severe rumination, suicidal ideation, hopelessness, helplessness, crying, overthinking, etc. I think I'm definitely stuck in a parasympathetic / high acetylcholine state, as I normally have these symptoms but just not as severe.

I do actually take choline though, in the form of sunflower lecithin, quite a lot too. I only began taking it about a month ago, and it doesn't worsen any of these symptoms strangely enough, and I have experimented with it plenty, stopping it completely for a while for example then starting again without anything changing.

Thank you a lot for replying again. What I said above is relevant concerning the choline/methyl intake, which I get a lot of.

Yes I don't eat any animal protein unfortunately, I seem to have severely low stomach acid and thus indigestion. When I first began taking niacin like you suggest for low stomach acid it actually did give me that iron stomach feeling, but sadly I only got that effect a few times and was never able to reproduce it again since, even after taking long breaks from it. It also made me feel amazing in other ways, such as restoring my libido, orgasm, and penile sensitivity for the first time in years, as well as absolutely demolishing my anxiety - it felt how I'd imagine benzos feeling.

I still seem to be in a overly parasympathetic / high acetylcholine state, despite my completely dysfunctional digestion. I never have ADHD symptoms normally, only after stress.

I know it's not very peat-y but have you ever tried methylfolate/(methyl)b12? I ask because if you have, your reaction to these supplements could somewhat paint a more detailed picture in regards to methylation. Although I don't mess with B9/12 anymore I do remember them being very helpful for symptoms similar to yours.

 

[deliciousfruit]

I know it's not very peat-y but have you ever tried methylfolate/(methyl)b12? I ask because if you have, your reaction to these supplements could somewhat paint a more detailed picture in regards to methylation. Although I don't mess with B9/12 anymore I do remember them being very helpful for symptoms similar to yours.

Yes, even the tiniest amounts cause severe tremors, weakness, low blood sugar, anxiety, irritability, malaise, insomnia. Cyanocobalamin gives the same reaction. It's frustrating because since I can't eat any animal foods, I need to be getting in some B12...
I do take folic acid though, I absolutely can't go a day without it.

I think I fit the symptomatology of "overmethylation" more than "undermethylation", but definitely low histamine, as that relates somewhat to methylation it seems.

Also, sorry that I've essentially hijacked your thread lol. I can start a new one if you'd like

 

[OliviaD]

Yeh cypro is like alcohol in this way. Its obviously not damaging like alcohol, but its a downer and makes you forget about your problems and make them seem less problematic.

If you have bad digestion cypro will worsen it even more.

What you described (normal temps and cold extremities) has nothing to do with your thyroid. In fact when your metabolism burns through your glycogen quickly (which stimulants do and thyroid can do) this gets worse. Because the problem is noradrenaline is too high. It elevates in response to many things, and its highly implicated in being involved in autistic symptoms. It also promotes vasoconstriction in the extremities, hence ice cold hands if its bad enough. Sympathetic dominance, low cholinergic activity also causes terrible digestion.

The major neurotransmitter that antagonizes excess sympathetic activity and noradrenaline is acetylcholine. You probably need to raise this. This will help cold extremities, digestion and this will calm down the nervous system and reduce impulsive, "autism" related behaviors by giving your nervous system more inhibitory control over your behavior. A calm nervous system is also needed to socialize.

Acetylcholine speeds up brain function, is necessary for verbal fluency and thinking and calming the nervous system by antagonizing sympathetic activity, which can promote manic and odd behaviors.

Thank you for this and your other post. I have been struggling to understand why people are saying an anticholinergic (I believe a primary action of cypro) would be helping for those with increased 'stress hormones' (I'm assuming cortisol and epi) . It would seem to have the opposite effect. I would not take such a drug unless I really needed it for a specific reason - i.e the anti-histamine effects. I'm not sure how people are using this drug.. maybe short term would be okay. I think in this day and age, we are so sympathetic driven I'm not doing anything to lessen my PS input!!!

 

[InChristAlone]

Thank you for this and your other post. I have been struggling to understand why people are saying an anticholinergic (I believe a primary action of cypro) would be helping for those with increased 'stress hormones' (I'm assuming cortisol and epi) . It would seem to have the opposite effect. I would not take such a drug unless I really needed it for a specific reason - i.e the anti-histamine effects. I'm not sure how people are using this drug.. maybe short term would be okay. I think in this day and age, we are so sympathetic driven I'm not doing anything to lessen my PS input!!!

Neurotransmitter research is not black and white. If you are the high adrenaline high histamine type cypro works to bring it down and can change your life if you are stuck in that learned helplessness. Peat recommends 1 mg or less which lessens side effects.

 

[redsun]

Thank you for this and your other post. I have been struggling to understand why people are saying an anticholinergic (I believe a primary action of cypro) would be helping for those with increased 'stress hormones' (I'm assuming cortisol and epi) . It would seem to have the opposite effect. I would not take such a drug unless I really needed it for a specific reason - i.e the anti-histamine effects. I'm not sure how people are using this drug.. maybe short term would be okay. I think in this day and age, we are so sympathetic driven I'm not doing anything to lessen my PS input!!!

It can help some people temporarily. In the end it is not a permanent solution, no drug is. It will help those with excess histamine and high serotonin levels the most. The rest it will do nothing or make them worse.

I never understood the use of antihistamines unless you have severe allergic reactions and chronically high, insane histamine levels and the symptoms to go along with it. That is the only reason I would ever recommend its temporary use. In that case it should be used while the diet and micronutrient intake is fixed and optimized and the histamine levels are brought down to more controllable levels through use of methyl donors such as TMG.

Then it should be stopped to allow the homeostasis to return because make no mistake it is not normal homeostasis to depend on an antihistamine and blocking all these receptors that cypro blocks is not good for the body in the long run. It should not be taken while the appropriate steps to lower histamine levels and promote healthy adrenal activity are not being taken. Its like treating someone with ADHD with just adderall and never taking the necessary steps through diet and lifestyle to make it so not only could their medication work better but eventually they won't need it.

 

[redsun]

Neurotransmitter research is not black and white. If you are the high adrenaline high histamine type cypro works to bring it down and can change your life if you are stuck in that learned helplessness. Peat recommends 1 mg or less which lessens side effects.

Your right its not black and white but blanket recommendations by Peat or anyone for that matter is rarely useful and can be even harmful for some people. Lets take the OP of this thread for example. Do you know what happened to him? Turns out he did in fact just need choline. I suspected The genetic issue he mentioned where due to his SNPs his choline requirement was tripled and this is what was causing all his symptoms. I ended up having a private conversation with him.

He started taking large doses of choline as sunflower lecithin and it quite literally fixed all his issues. This includes his autistic behaviors (stimming), anxiety, nervousness, cold extremities,he was able to dream again, he was able to feel emotions again, he became social and was able to make jokes with his friends again. Basically he felt human again. All because of repleting choline. Thats all he did. He didnt need cypro or anything else for that matter. And then he told me now that he is better is just going to get off this forum and live his life and that's what he did.

And you see that's great and all, an amazing recovery story. But you see it also infuriated me because I imagined if I didn't get to this guy first basically he would have been screwed but advice from the rest of the users here.

So many of the peaters try to help others but in the end they do so in vain because their advice is not specific to the individual, 99% of their advice comes from Peat or some other authority figure. If I had let this slide and never got into this thread and let the Peaters get their hands on him, I guarantee you that this guy would still have all his problems and probably new ones, and he still would be advised to be taking cypro and who knows what else at this point. All he needed was ******* choline and that would never be suggested or even thought of by 99.9% of the people here. Because the suggestions come purely from Peat's articles and his podcasts and Peat himself speaks mostly ill (and wrongly) of acetylcholine/choline. Parroting info while not digesting and understanding what is going on in each specific person is a major error that many here who try to help make regularly.

This is a severe weakness of this community, and every community that clings too strongly to one expert or one major way of thinking and understanding. Most of the users here truly refuse to appreciate the depth of knowledge there actually is that can be used to help people on this forum. Peat's articles and podcasts discuss maybe 1% of it. If anyone wants to truly help people, they need to read. And read a lot. Read, and watch and learn from every expert even if they seem ridiculous. Use your judgment and intuition. Take what makes sense and do your best to be sensible. Scientific articles on pubmed and similar are the best resources if you actually want to understand something with as little bias as possible.

I can't help every single newbie thread unfortunately, and I can't hold everyone responsible and correct them for senseless and possibly harmful advice. I wish I could but I am just one person. And still even now this kind of irresponsibility occurs daily here. I implore everyone that truly wants to help others to write less, read more. Read from everyone and everything. Ponder, make connections, and then read more into those connections. If you are truly inspired and fascinated by biochemistry, this will be easy for you. It just takes time.

 

[OliviaD]

Neurotransmitter research is not black and white. If you are the high adrenaline high histamine type cypro works to bring it down and can change your life if you are stuck in that learned helplessness. Peat recommends 1 mg or less which lessens side effects.

No, it sure is not; nor as any research.. about any of the physiology,, biochemistry, etc. etc. I need to think more carefully before writing comments/questions here.. most of the time I am just "thinking out loud". I guess, more appropriately would be "I don't understand the physiologic rationale" or something like that.

I am here to learn :). If there is something that helped me feel better - I would take advantage of it. I also admit that there are a lot of misconceptions about medications and how they work in the medical world - I've even had medical school pharmacology and I don't remember most of it. I take what these drugs to at face value without having explored the biochemistry myself.

Interesting comment re: the learned helplessness. I know RP had a recent article about that - I read it quickly but don't remember the details, so will go back. Are you saying that high adrenaline/high histamine 'type' is tends to/can have learned helplessness? And the cypro helps with that? Do you have experience with this - i.e. has it helped you? While studies are always helpful, I do find anecdotal reports helpful also, especially when there are many reporting the same thing.