Constatine

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Yes personally it didn't settle well with me. Also, andractim is hard to dose and easy to overdo
Weed is lagalized but androgens are still illegal (in America)...Lol maybe we need all the bodybuilders to be as outspoken as pot users.
 

Wagner83

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In light of your ideas on anabolic compounds and how they just oppose cortisol effects, have you ever looked into nivelar ?
From what I see it was developped specifically to keep the anabolic properties of T but not its androgenic ones. It may have nasty side effects on the liver but I thought it could be interesting to study given its properties and the theory in your OP.
 
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haidut

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In light of your ideas on anabolic compounds and how they just oppose cortisol effects, have you ever looked into nivelar ?
From what I see it was developped specifically to keep the anabolic properties of T but not its androgenic ones. It may have nasty side effects on the liver but I thought it could be interesting to study given its properties and the theory in your OP.

I have seen it before but the liver toxicity is a big concern. There are even more potent anabolics than that one, also with very little androgenicity. The most recent "star" is Trestrolone, which is currently not controlled in the USA and is about to be approved as a male contraceptive.
Trestolone - Wikipedia

The problem with ALL steroids with high anabolic/androgenic ratio (except regular progesterone) is that usually the higher the ratio the higher their potential to turn into very estrogenic metabolites. The only one I know of that has a decent ratio and is not estrogenic is oxandrolone. It is not a coincidence it is the steroid of choice in hospitals even for small children with burns or people with severe muscle wasting from HIV/cancer. Again, a combination of something like progesterone/androsterone or even progesterone/DHEA would be hard to beat in terms of safety and it can probably provide decent anabolic response.
 

Wagner83

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Oh ok thanks, I didn't mean you should consider selling it but just that it could be interesting to see how it prevents muscles loss through almost no androgenicity and just anabolism, if it antagonize cortisol then it's a good point for the theory in the OP.
 

Owen B

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I think I will release progesterone + DHEA as supplement. This way people can try either stack and if needed modulate it with either extra pregnenolone (StressNon) or progesterone (Progestene).
Count me as one who's having trouble with the Metergoline; I got my sugar up some but that stuff really gets cortisol down, gives me energy but that sugar drop is something else.

So I'm thinking of back-tracking and trying the anti- stress chemicals. Even if I take thyroid for the sugar, it's still going to bump up against all my stress hormones. I have very high stress with considerable muscle wasting now.

I've searched all the threads and see all the combinations. The one I can't do is Pansterone. That combo just make me nuts. I get totally estrogenic. I'm interested in trying all the preg/prog stacks and the one you're talking about here, the prog/DHEA.

Grinding up some DHEA is doable and I have some Progestene. But that prog/DHEA sounds good. The only thing I'd have to pick up is some StressNon.

Are you still thinking of bringing that out?
 
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haidut

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Count me as one who's having trouble with the Metergoline; I got my sugar up some but that stuff really gets cortisol down, gives me energy but that sugar drop is something else.

So I'm thinking of back-tracking and trying the anti- stress chemicals. Even if I take thyroid for the sugar, it's still going to bump up against all my stress hormones. I have very high stress with considerable muscle wasting now.

I've searched all the threads and see all the combinations. The one I can't do is Pansterone. That combo just make me nuts. I get totally estrogenic. I'm interested in trying all the preg/prog stacks and the one you're talking about here, the prog/DHEA.

Grinding up some DHEA is doable and I have some Progestene. But that prog/DHEA sounds good. The only thing I'd have to pick up is some StressNon.

Are you still thinking of bringing that out?

Yes, we will probably have the prog/DHEA combo out before the end of this month, and separate vitamin D as a supplement as well.
 

dand

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Yes, we will probably have the prog/DHEA combo out before the end of this month, and separate vitamin D as a supplement as well.

Nice! Anecdotally, I have noticed progesterone to really blunt any estrogenic symptoms so this should be a great combo of progesterone/dhea. I can also add that it is definitely not anti-androgenic in small doses. With Idea Labs being so potent, I only take a few drops at a time either orally or topically. Also, orally seems to be a little more beneficial for whatever reason, I am not sure. @haidut since pregenenolone mostly metabolizes into progesterone, it's interesting that progesterone as a stand alone product seems to still offer differentiated effects.
 

Lee Simeon

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Yes, we will probably have the prog/DHEA combo out before the end of this month, and separate vitamin D as a supplement as well.
Are you planning on making a seperate Vitamin E product as well? I know you have TocoVit, but something more affordable and less niche. Perhaps the one used in EstroBan?
 

dand

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Are you planning on making a seperate Vitamin E product as well? I know you have TocoVit, but something more affordable and less niche. Perhaps the one used in EstroBan?

Lol. I can't speak for Haidut here, but why would he do that :)? Tocovit isn't exactly expensive and is more potent. Just take a smaller amount if cost is a concern?
 

Lee Simeon

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Lol. I can't speak for Haidut here, but why would he do that :)? Tocovit isn't exactly expensive and is more potent. Just take a smaller amount if cost is a concern?
Do you have any experiences regarding potency?
 

dand

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I do. I get a nice metabolic boost from Tocovit that is more substantial than other vitamin e's per taking my temperature. Also, @haidut tries to offer products that can't be found elsewhere at the some quality, price, etc. Lotioncrafter is a decent generic vitamin E, IMO.
 

A.R

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Yes, we will probably have the prog/DHEA combo out before the end of this month, and separate vitamin D as a supplement as well.
Vitamin D in DMSO, please? Would be amazing to stack with DMSO Kuinone
 

Koveras

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I think the dose matters a lot. If you notice, the dose used for RU486 in the PFS thread is also quite a bit lower than the one used for Cushing syndrome. If you use 600mg+ of RU486 as it is used in that condition I think the pro-libido effects will disappear. In that dose RU486 behaves like a progestin and starts to oppose estrogen as well as much as gbolduev does not want to admit it. Same with progesterone - a dose of under 50mg for a male seems to be best. In higher doses because it can also bind the androgen receptor, progesterone can compete with endogenous androgens and become anti-androgenic. A weaker androgen agonist (aka progesterone) competing with stronger androgens for receptor binding behaves as an antiandrogen. Here is an example related to DHEA but the same applies to proegsterone as it is also an AR agonist.
Dehydroepiandrosterone - Wikipedia
"...Although it functions as an endogenous precursor to more potent androgens such as testosterone and DHT, DHEA has been found to possess some degree of androgenic activity in its own right, acting as a low affinity (Ki = 1 μM), weak partial agonist of the androgen receptor (AR). However, its intrinsic activity at the receptor is quite weak, and on account of that, due to competition for binding with full agonists like testosterone, it can actually behave more like an antagonist depending on circulating testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) levels, and hence, like an antiandrogen. However, its affinity for the receptor is very low, and for that reason, is unlikely to be of much significance under normal circumstances."

So, again, the dose makes the poison. Progesterone dose should probably stay under 50mg for a male unless combined with a strong androgen like DHT, androsterone, etc. gbolduev said to combine progesterone + T but there is no need to do that actually as T is a progestin itself. As I mentioned in a few other threads arguing with tyw, most synthetic progestins are 19-nortestosterone derivatives and are agonist at PR. So is T for that matter. See below for more info.
Wooo's "Progesterone, The Master Hormone Myth"

In summary, if progesterone is used I would stay at a lower dose for a male and combine with a strong androgen when possible, to avoid behaving like an anti-androgen. DHT would be best for stacking with it (IMO) but even adding DHEA or androsterone should work. In fact, IMO an optimal OTC stack would be progesterone + dhea + androsterone as I mentioned in the original thread.

Another possibility aside from progesterone occupying androgen receptors - progesterone can compete with testosterone for the activity of 5a-reductase in higher doses.

"It is doubtful, however, that T+P inhibits lordosis directly through increased levels of DHT, or a product of DHT, because the formation of DHT from T is actually decreased in the presence of P due to competition by T and P for the 5a-reductase enzyme (Massa, Stupnicka, Kniewald, and Martini, 1972)."

The transformation of testosterone into dihydrotestosterone by the brain and the anterior pituitary

"Although there are many possibilities, the inhibition of lordosis by DHT most likely requires binding to androgen receptors (Coyotupa et al., 1972; Blasberg et al., 1998). Estrogen increases androgen receptor (AR) levels and the duration of AR occupation by DHT in the male (Handa, Roselli, Horton, and Resko, 1987; Roselli and Fasasi, 1992), but this action of estrogen does not appear to explain the T+P-induced inhibition because lordosis was still significantly reduced in T+P- compared to T-treated males when no estrogen was administered Another possibility is that the P treatment in some manner upregulated ARs, resulting in a greater responsiveness to DHT. Since the upregulation of ARs would not have been expressed as a reduction of lordosis unless DHT was also present, this hypothesis is consistent with the fact that both T (as a substrate for DHT) and P were required to observe an effect. As pointed out by Crews, Godwin Hartman, Grammer, Prediger, and Sheppherd (1996), at first glance this hypothesis seems to contradict studies showing that T and P can compete with each other for binding with receptors, that P can have anti-androgenic actions, and that P can deplete nuclear ARs, but the doses of P used in these studies were pharmacological (Connolly and Resko, 1989). Indeed, although studied in a different context (that of T and P acting alone or in synergy to elicit male-typical behaviors in lizards and rats (Lindzey and Crews, 1988; Young, Greenberg, and Crews, 1991; Witt et al., 1995)), intracranial implants of P can increase the abundance of AR mRNA in the brain of male whiptail lizards (Crews et al., 1996), and male progesterone receptor knockout mice are less responsive to testosterone replacement on measures of male copulatory behavior (Phelps, Lydon, O’Malley, and Crews, 1998). To our knowledge, no other research pertinent to this issue has been performed."

Inhibition of lordosis behavior in male and female rats by androgens and progesterone.
 
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haidut

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Another possibility aside from progesterone occupying androgen receptors - progesterone can compete with testosterone for the activity of 5a-reductase in higher doses.

"It is doubtful, however, that T+P inhibits lordosis directly through increased levels of DHT, or a product of DHT, because the formation of DHT from T is actually decreased in the presence of P due to competition by T and P for the 5a-reductase enzyme (Massa, Stupnicka, Kniewald, and Martini, 1972)."

The transformation of testosterone into dihydrotestosterone by the brain and the anterior pituitary

"Although there are many possibilities, the inhibition of lordosis by DHT most likely requires binding to androgen receptors (Coyotupa et al., 1972; Blasberg et al., 1998). Estrogen increases androgen receptor (AR) levels and the duration of AR occupation by DHT in the male (Handa, Roselli, Horton, and Resko, 1987; Roselli and Fasasi, 1992), but this action of estrogen does not appear to explain the T+P-induced inhibition because lordosis was still significantly reduced in T+P- compared to T-treated males when no estrogen was administered Another possibility is that the P treatment in some manner upregulated ARs, resulting in a greater responsiveness to DHT. Since the upregulation of ARs would not have been expressed as a reduction of lordosis unless DHT was also present, this hypothesis is consistent with the fact that both T (as a substrate for DHT) and P were required to observe an effect. As pointed out by Crews, Godwin Hartman, Grammer, Prediger, and Sheppherd (1996), at first glance this hypothesis seems to contradict studies showing that T and P can compete with each other for binding with receptors, that P can have anti-androgenic actions, and that P can deplete nuclear ARs, but the doses of P used in these studies were pharmacological (Connolly and Resko, 1989). Indeed, although studied in a different context (that of T and P acting alone or in synergy to elicit male-typical behaviors in lizards and rats (Lindzey and Crews, 1988; Young, Greenberg, and Crews, 1991; Witt et al., 1995)), intracranial implants of P can increase the abundance of AR mRNA in the brain of male whiptail lizards (Crews et al., 1996), and male progesterone receptor knockout mice are less responsive to testosterone replacement on measures of male copulatory behavior (Phelps, Lydon, O’Malley, and Crews, 1998). To our knowledge, no other research pertinent to this issue has been performed."

Inhibition of lordosis behavior in male and female rats by androgens and progesterone.

Thanks. Actually you bring up a great point - that progesterone does NOT inhibit 5-AR but rather has a much higher affinity for it than T, so progesterone will outcompete T even at lower doses and thus raise allopregnanolone levels at the expense of DHT. It is allopregnanolone that is known to have anti-gonadotropic and anti-libido effects, so progesterone gets blamed while in reality that steroid by itself is rather pro-male when used in the proper dose.
Hey @Wagner83 did you see the part about progesterone actually upregulating AR? I think it throws a bit of a wrench in the theory about finasteride actually making cells insensitive to DHT. Not sure if the PFS guys on the other forum would be interested in this, but it caught my eye.
 

dand

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Thanks. Actually you bring up a great point - that progesterone does NOT inhibit 5-AR but rather has a much higher affinity for it than T, so progesterone will outcompete T even at lower doses and thus raise allopregnanolone levels at the expense of DHT. It is allopregnanolone that is known to have anti-gonadotropic and anti-libido effects, so progesterone gets blamed while in reality that steroid by itself is rather pro-male when used in the proper dose.
Hey @Wagner83 did you see the part about progesterone actually upregulating AR? I think it throws a bit of a wrench in the theory about finasteride actually making cells insensitive to DHT. Not sure if the PFS guys on the other forum would be interested in this, but it caught my eye.

This is definitely consistent with my experience!
 

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