gbolduev

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Idealabs Progestene is what made my post-menopausal mother recover her sleep, in that site they are clearly talking about the side effects of progestins not actual progesterone

:agree2disagree

NO they are talking about progesterone. I had worked with tons of women. and they took progesterone bio identical. They had loss of muscle to the point some could not walk anymore.

It depends on body chemistry, if you need progesterone it will help you for a while. And then the horror starts. It is not sustainable to take a hormone long term. YOU bypass mineral regulations
 
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gbolduev

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I posted exactly the same for a steroid cycle in PFS thread a week ago. I said that if anyone would take steroids, they should take testosterone with progesterone. Since taking testosterone alone will tank 3 beta hsd. taking androsterone inhibits 5 alpha reductase that is why it works for PFS. I am anti Peat , I dont take any ideas from Peat

I block cortisol( or increase the need for it) to increase it sensitivity . Peat says cortisol is evil. and to lower it.I want cortisol to be more sensitive. DHEA does not block cortisol. It lowers pregnenolone conversions. Thus tanks the whole glucocorticoid branch. Thus many people crash on it and get hypokalemia.

Progesterone binds to cortisol receptors and activates glutamine synthase only at 21% of cortisol but agonizes cortisol receptors. That is why in cortisol deficiency , you get anxiety. this is understandable, since exogenous progesterone or progestins lower 3 beta hsd and zinc, and zinc is needed for glutamine synthase as active b6 depends on it.

Many women use progesterone to lose their muscular hands, progesterone will tank testosterone = NO MUSCLES

There is no anabolic supplement. Some people need more catabolism and some people need more anabolism. Read Revici work, some cancers are in anabolism and some in catabolism.

All you guys do here is opposite of what Peat says. You block cortisol, you make it more sensitive( I SAY THAT). It is not like you constantly block it to zero. Just block it to zero and live with it. YOU will die. Block serotonin to zero and live with it. You will die from it.

You are doing completely opposite of what you are saying. Your are blocking cortisol for a week. This makes it super sensitive. Then you get off and dont take the supplement. This is what fasting does.

You block serotonin receptor , then you get off the supplement. Serotonin becomes MORE not less.

And now you claim the opposite. LOL NO it is not me stealing the ideas, it is you will be stealing mine soon and spinning Peat into my understanding.

I dont rec any steroids. since if you take testosterone with progesterone, this will make your zinc biounvailable and many other vitamins and minerals biounvailable/

Your PH regulation will be screwed up. since zinc is used in many enzymes.

All these steroid cycles are nonsense and will ruin your health. Even taking pregnenolone will cause problems,since when you take pregnenolone. You make iron biounavailable since you tank 450scc

When you tank your biounavailable iron, you tank your progesterone to cortisol conversion, since you need iron in 11 beta. You also tank your 5 alpha . since DHT requires iron.

So pregnenolone will cause estrogen to go up, to oppose progesterone rise from pregnenolone intake. since conversion of progesterone to cortisol goes down. If iron was there, then metabolism could have gone up. since cortisol conversion depends on IRON.


This is why no one can tolerate thyroid with low iron level. WHY? since iron is needed to convert progesterone to cortisol, and without cortisol, you will have thyroid resistance.


Zinc will increase progesterone levels, THIS INCREASES CORTISOL IN SLOW OXIDIZERS and LOWERS IT IN FAST OXIDIZERS .

Progesterone and progestins also will always act differently on the receptor depending on the cell potassium level.


RU486 is not anti estrogen. Tissue and serum levels of steroid hormones and RU 486 after administration of mifepristone. - PubMed - NCBI
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._testosteroneoestradiol_ratios_in_cyclic_rats

It tanks sodium in the cell. this causes huge activation of testosterone pathway. and thus estrogen is up also

This is why it is used to restore HPG axis better than anything I know.
 
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Rand56

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DHEA does not block cortisol. It lowers pregnenolone conversions. Thus tanks the whole glucocorticoid branch. Thus many people crash on it and get hypokalemia.

I can't count that high the number of times I've tried DHEA, and at different dosages. I finally stopped the insanity and have not touched it for awhile now. Never again.
 

Kartoffel

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Gbolduev,

I have never seen anything that would suggest that taking supplemental pregnenolone would "tank" P450scc, or in other words would lower the body's own production of pregnenolone. But what I would like to know is: How would the inhibition of 450scc make iron biounavailable as you say? Thanks.
 

Makrosky

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Gbolduev,

I have never seen anything that would suggest that taking supplemental pregnenolone would "tank" P450scc, or in other words would lower the body's own production of pregnenolone. But what I would like to know is: How would the inhibition of 450scc make iron biounavailable as you say? Thanks.
Actually Ray says it's the opposite : supplemental preg makes you generate more endogenous preg.
 
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haidut

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Good detailed post. Lol you mentioned RU486 in one of your examples @haidut

But @Drareg said RU486 is a scam tho :tearsofjoy:...I guess he is in agreement now

I have discussed RU486 on this forum in the past, but it only became fashionable lately when people realized that inhibiting cortisol signalling is a good thing. Google for "site:raypeatforum.com haidut mifepristone" or "site:raypeatforum.com haidut ru486".
Peat has an article on it from the mid-2000 and mentioned it back in the last 90s in a few newsletters.
RU486, cancer, estrogen, and progesterone.

I would not call it a scam but it basically does the same thing as progesterone - "modulates" PR, antagonist at ER and GR. Everything it can do, aside from inducing abortions, can be more safely achieved with progesterone.
 
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haidut

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Interesting flip on how to see this. I'm not sure what to do with it...however the conclusion that a stack of DHEA/andro/progesterone is the most anti catabolic...well it is not that new. Rearranging the pieces on the Peat chess board. Haven't people been using this stack?

Well, not sure people have tried progesterone + androsterone alone, or progesterone + DHEA, or progesterone + DHEA + androsterone. Also, I wanted to show that progesterone is an anti-catabolic steroid which even on its own should have a lot of benefit. And for the people that can stack it with a potent androgen like DHT it can be a very potent option. I guess the main message is that opposition to cortisol is one of the most protective things a person can do, especially when not in good health. Not sure if you remember the recent discussions with tyw and older ones where there was so much opposition to trying to block cortisol.
 
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haidut

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muscle contains almost exclusively glucocorticoid receptors(GR)...

That could be so when cortisol is raised, it's the muscle mass which is attacked for fuel first, rather than the internal organs.

Quite amazing how the human body is made.

Exactly. Another way to look at this is that muscle is an "honest" signal of organism enduring good times and being able to accumulate quality fuel (e.g. glucose in the form of amino acids) as opposed to bad fuel (fat).
 
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haidut

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With split does of 10-15 mg DHEA (as per Peat doses) wouldn't 20-30 mg progesterone be too much for a male? @haidut

When balanced by DHEA (and maybe adding some androsterone) I think it is OK. In lower doses (sub 50mg) progesterone seems to raise T and libido in men.
 

Wagner83

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Why would you avoid (or include) pregnenolone? I remember that @TubZy and a few others did better and felt more androgenic with some progesterone . Perhaps they can chime in.
 

cyclops

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As an androgen agonist I would of course pick DHT, especially given its own antagonism to GR and estrogen. However, given that is it not available OTC it is probably not an option for most people.

So DHT is really the best thing then? What about the russianpeptide?
 
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haidut

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So DHT is really the best thing then? What about the russianpeptide?

No, not enough antagonism of GR. I posted long time ago that progesterone and DHT are probably the only 2 hormones worth optimizing for and so far that seems to be true. So, DHT + progesterone would probably be best for anabolic and anti-catabolism.
 

TubZy

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Why would you avoid (or include) pregnenolone? I remember that @TubZy and a few others did better and felt more androgenic with some progesterone . Perhaps they can chime in.

The first few days of lower dose progesterone I felt androgentic then towards the 3rd or 4th day I started to get water retention, flat muscle, no libido etc. However, when I found I added 5mg of DHEA in it reversed the anti androgen sides to an extent. By I never did well on DHEA so I stopped the combo eventually. Never tried progesterone with DHT though
 

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I have discussed RU486 on this forum in the past, but it only became fashionable lately when people realized that inhibiting cortisol signalling is a good thing. Google for "site:raypeatforum.com haidut mifepristone" or "site:raypeatforum.com haidut ru486".
Peat has an article on it from the mid-2000 and mentioned it back in the last 90s in a few newsletters.
RU486, cancer, estrogen, and progesterone.

I would not call it a scam but it basically does the same thing as progesterone - "modulates" PR, antagonist at ER and GR. Everything it can do, aside from inducing abortions, can be more safely achieved with progesterone.

Yeah, I know I'm just messing with you, I have seen you mention it in the past before a while ago.

If progesterone and RU can do the same thing. Why does progesterone tank libido and cause weak erections etc. after a while, while RU doesn't and seems to do quite the opposite (high libido, super strong erections, great mood, no tired feeling)? That is what a lot of us noticed who are on RU right now.
 

Wagner83

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If progesterone and RU do the same thing. Why does progesterone tank libido and cause weak erections etc. after a while, while RU doesn't and seems to do quite the opposite (high libido, super strong erections, great mood, no tired feeling like GABA does)? That is what a lot of us noticed who are on RU right now.
High NO gave me strong bigger erections in the past, from what I read high libido could be high estrogenic activity (for example).
 

cyclops

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No, not enough antagonism of GR. I posted long time ago that progesterone and DHT are probably the only 2 hormones worth optimizing for and so far that seems to be true. So, DHT + progesterone would probably be best for anabolic and anti-catabolism.

What do you think a good dose of DHT + progesterone would be for male rats?
 

TubZy

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High NO gave me strong bigger erections in the past, from what I read high libido could be high estrogenic activity (for example).

Yeah same here, except it is not that type of feeling, it is a strong brain to **** connection that is causing it rather than a feeling from cialis or arginine, if that makes sense. Plus, @haidut claimed RU is anti estrogenic, so not sure if high estrogen has a role in this situation.
 
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haidut

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Yeah, I know I'm just messing with you, I have seen you mention it in the past before a while ago.

If progesterone and RU can do the same thing. Why does progesterone tank libido and cause weak erections etc. after a while, while RU doesn't and seems to do quite the opposite (high libido, super strong erections, great mood, no tired feeling)? That is what a lot of us noticed who are on RU right now.

I think the dose matters a lot. If you notice, the dose used for RU486 in the PFS thread is also quite a bit lower than the one used for Cushing syndrome. If you use 600mg+ of RU486 as it is used in that condition I think the pro-libido effects will disappear. In that dose RU486 behaves like a progestin and starts to oppose estrogen as well as much as gbolduev does not want to admit it. Same with progesterone - a dose of under 50mg for a male seems to be best. In higher doses because it can also bind the androgen receptor, progesterone can compete with endogenous androgens and become anti-androgenic. A weaker androgen agonist (aka progesterone) competing with stronger androgens for receptor binding behaves as an antiandrogen. Here is an example related to DHEA but the same applies to proegsterone as it is also an AR agonist.
Dehydroepiandrosterone - Wikipedia
"...Although it functions as an endogenous precursor to more potent androgens such as testosterone and DHT, DHEA has been found to possess some degree of androgenic activity in its own right, acting as a low affinity (Ki = 1 μM), weak partial agonist of the androgen receptor (AR). However, its intrinsic activity at the receptor is quite weak, and on account of that, due to competition for binding with full agonists like testosterone, it can actually behave more like an antagonist depending on circulating testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) levels, and hence, like an antiandrogen. However, its affinity for the receptor is very low, and for that reason, is unlikely to be of much significance under normal circumstances."

So, again, the dose makes the poison. Progesterone dose should probably stay under 50mg for a male unless combined with a strong androgen like DHT, androsterone, etc. gbolduev said to combine progesterone + T but there is no need to do that actually as T is a progestin itself. As I mentioned in a few other threads arguing with tyw, most synthetic progestins are 19-nortestosterone derivatives and are agonist at PR. So is T for that matter. See below for more info.
Wooo's "Progesterone, The Master Hormone Myth"

In summary, if progesterone is used I would stay at a lower dose for a male and combine with a strong androgen when possible, to avoid behaving like an anti-androgen. DHT would be best for stacking with it (IMO) but even adding DHEA or androsterone should work. In fact, IMO an optimal OTC stack would be progesterone + dhea + androsterone as I mentioned in the original thread.
 
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