Quercetin Inhibits Finasteride From Reducing Serum DHT?

[GorillaHead]

Reduction of rat prostate weight by combined quercetin-finasteride treatment is associated with cell cycle deregulation. - PubMed - NCBI

Take a look at this study!
Its basically says in rats when they administered finasteride serum dht went down but when they added quercetin that did not happen but the effects of finasteride became localized?


Am i missing something! How?

 

[ecstatichamster]

I used to take quercetin for allergies. I found it is extremely estrogenic and it messed up my androgens and caused ED.

 

[GorillaHead]

I used to take quercetin for allergies. I found it is extremely estrogenic and it messed up my androgens and caused ED.

That’s interesting because in this study it seems like it would be the opposite of estrogen in if it keeps dht levels up?

 

[rob]

The effects on DHT are interesting. It seems the P450 enzyme CYP3A4 metabolises finasteride into compounds with far weaker effects on type 2 5 alpha reductase (< 20% potency of parent compound). Sufficiently high doses of quercetin could be upregulating this enzyme: Vitamin D Receptor-Mediated Upregulation of CYP3A4 and MDR1 by Quercetin in Caco-2 cells. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[sladerunner69]

The effects on DHT are interesting. It seems the P450 enzyme CYP3A4 metabolises finasteride into compounds with far weaker effects on type 2 5 alpha reductase (< 20% potency of parent compound). Sufficiently high doses of quercetin could be upregulating this enzyme: Vitamin D Receptor-Mediated Upregulation of CYP3A4 and MDR1 by Quercetin in Caco-2 cells. - PubMed - NCBI

Why only type2 5-ar? Why not all types?

The different types of 5-ar have always confused me. I have fps and sometimes raising 5-ar physically hurts me mentally and vice versa, making inhibitted 5-ar seem very difficult to treat.

 

[rob]

Why only type2 5-ar? Why not all types?

Sorry, seems I've been lost in translation there. With regards to quercetin's effects on CYP3A4, I was talking specifically in the context of finasteride as a type 2 5-ar inhibitor.

Depending on the relative potency of the metabolites, it could theoretically do the same with Dutasteride, which inhibits both type 1 and 2 isozymes, because that too is metabolised by CYP3A4.

The different types of 5-ar have always confused me. I have fps and sometimes raising 5-ar physically hurts me mentally and vice versa, making inhibitted 5-ar seem very difficult to treat.

Yep, 5-ar isn't just affecting peripheral androgen levels it influences neurosteroid production with notable knock-on implications for stuff like allopregnanolone and THDOC, hence the cognitive issues people can have when messing with this stuff.

 

[rob]

@sladerunner69 Btw, an alternative strategy to the 5-ar angle would be to look at the androgen receptor (AR). Off the top of my head, I know that SIRT1 deacetylates AR reducing DHT binding (see: Hormonal control of androgen receptor function through SIRT1. - PubMed - NCBI). Thus, depending on whether someone wants to increase/decrease DHT-related symptoms they could play around with things accordingly.

 

[sladerunner69]

Sorry, seems I've been lost in translation there. With regards to quercetin's effects on CYP3A4, I was talking specifically in the context of finasteride as a type 2 5-ar inhibitor.

Depending on the relative potency of the metabolites, it could theoretically do the same with Dutasteride, which inhibits both type 1 and 2 isozymes, because that too is metabolised by CYP3A4.



Yep, 5-ar isn't just affecting peripheral androgen levels it influences neurosteroid production with notable knock-on implications for stuff like allopregnanolone and THDOC, hence the cognitive issues people can have when messing with this stuff.

Yes I have suffered awful and strange cognitive symptoms for years now. When I take dht/androgenic substances it helps a lot with libido and physical symptoms from 5-ar inhibition, but does not help as much mentally. I am thinking I need to find ways to ramp up neurosteroid production like allopregnenlone. So taking things like glycine/gersanium/5-dhp helps (I have experienced benefit- but not enough). I have never heard of THDOC. Is it the type 1 or 2 isozyme that is responsible for neurosteroids?

After doing a month cycle of androsterone to increase DHT and thus increase 5-ar, I feel physically improved but actually worse off mentally. I am thinking this could be because type 2 increased but type 1 decreased. Ugh who the hell knows...

@sladerunner69 Btw, an alternative strategy to the 5-ar angle would be to look at the androgen receptor (AR). Off the top of my head, I know that SIRT1 deacetylates AR reducing DHT binding (see: Hormonal control of androgen receptor function through SIRT1. - PubMed - NCBI). Thus, depending on whether someone wants to increase/decrease DHT-related symptoms they could play around with things accordingly.

I am having trouble ascertaining what exactly you are recommending here... is it to find something that modulates SIRT? The Androgen receptor? Thank you for your input.

 

[rob]

Yes I have suffered awful and strange cognitive symptoms for years now. When I take dht/androgenic substances it helps a lot with libido and physical symptoms from 5-ar inhibition, but does not help as much mentally. I am thinking I need to find ways to ramp up neurosteroid production like allopregnenlone. So taking things like glycine/gersanium/5-dhp helps (I have experienced benefit- but not enough). I have never heard of THDOC. Is it the type 1 or 2 isozyme that is responsible for neurosteroids?

On the isozymes, type 1 is often described as being the one involved progesterone reduction (leading to allo and THDOC synthesis); however, a lot of this is part of a wider, evolving picture on the brain/CNS front, so who knows. Indeed, even as a weak type 1 inhibitor, Finasteride, even at low dose, still potently effects production (see: https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/hmbci.2010.1.issue-2/hmbci.2010.010/hmbci.2010.010.xml).

At the moment, I’d play it safe and assume both isozymes are important, as per:

THDOC is tetrahydrodeoxycorticosterone. It's the product of deoxycorticosterone being reduced by the two enzymes pictured above (5-ar and 3α-HSOR). Along with allo, it's a positive allosteric modulator of GABA-A receptors.

See the following:

After doing a month cycle of androsterone to increase DHT and thus increase 5-ar, I feel physically improved but actually worse off mentally. I am thinking this could be because type 2 increased but type 1 decreased. Ugh who the hell knows...

Interesting, I’d expect cognitive issues to lessen with improved DHT levels, especially if originally low. Have you had tests done to confirm the DHT increase? Also, have you checked your T/E2 ratio at all?

I am having trouble ascertaining what exactly you are recommending here... is it to find something that modulates SIRT? The Androgen receptor? Thank you for your input.

I was saying that another thing to look at could be the androgen receptor. If wanting to decrease DHT-related symptoms, sirt1 upregulation may work in your favour. However, if the opposite is true, then you might want to avoid anything that has significant sirt1 increasing effects.

Edit: On low DHT, should also say to, if not already, be mindful of the requirement for NADPH as a cofactor in 5-ar reactions. This need for NADPH puts particular emphasis on sufficient B1 and support for the B3/NAD+ pathway for optimal neurosteroid production.

 

[Kunstruct]

Dietary Quercetin Exacerbates the Development of Estrogen-Induced Breast Tumors in Female ACI Rats
Dietary Quercetin Exacerbates the Development of Estrogen-Induced Breast Tumors in Female ACI Rats

 

[LeeLemonoil]

Wow, what a piece of junk science. The abstract title is in no way congruent with the findings of the experiment and the conclusion of the Experiment is that Quer maybe indirectly exacerbates breast cancer by modulating compt.

Also, massive doses of Quer given.
And Quer Aline doesn’t cause cancer. E2 pellets implanted into mice did

What a piece of ***t, who are those authors?

 

[IVILA]

I used to take quercetin for allergies. I found it is extremely estrogenic and it messed up my androgens and caused ED.

From my resarch, you're right. It inhibits 5-AR type 1 so as other flavanols. And they are estrogenic too.

 

[reality]

From my resarch, you're right. It inhibits 5-AR type 1 so as other flavanols. And they are estrogenic too.

Is this relevant from whole food sources like blueberries, or only from isolated supplements doses?

 

[IVILA]

Is this relevant from whole food sources like blueberries, or only from isolated supplements doses?

Berries are easy to consume in high amounts in general and they contain these compounds in high amounts as well. I always look at which parts of the world people consume berries. Not many cultures eat berries in high amounts other than North Americans. Blueberries are mainly found in the west coast of North America. I try to stay away from them personally.