Quali-C Vitamin C Has Virtually No Heavy Metals

[ecstatichamster]

Is dehydro- form not bioavailable?

 

[Andrew Vajda]

Is dehydro- form not bioavailable?

Just means that it is oxidized, no longer of use as an antioxidant...

 

[Amazoniac]

You're very welcome! Thanks to @yerrag too for bringing this up. I certainly won't use tap water ever again!

I found the study and basically, huge oxidation in tapwater (93% after 3 hours at room temperature), none in bottled water:
Oxidative decomposition of vitamin C in drinking water. - PubMed - NCBI

Oxidative decomposition of vitamin C in drinking water.
Jansson PJ, et al. Free Radic Res. 2004.

Authors
Jansson PJ1, Jung HR, Lindqvist C, Nordström T.
Author information
1
Department of Biochemistry and Pharmacy, Abo Akademi University, BioCity, 20521 Turku, Finland.
Citation
Free Radic Res. 2004 Aug;38(8):855-60.

Abstract
We have previously shown that vitamin C (ascorbic acid) can initiate hydroxyl radical formation in copper contaminated household drinking water. In the present study, we have examined the stability of vitamin C in copper and bicarbonate containing household drinking water. In drinking water samples, contaminated with copper from the pipes and buffered with bicarbonate, 35% of the added vitamin C was oxidized to dehydroascorbic acid within 15 min. After 3h incubation at room temperature, 93% of the added (2 mM) ascorbic acid had been oxidized. The dehydroascorbic acid formed was further decomposed to oxalic acid and threonic acid by the hydrogen peroxide generated from the copper (I) autooxidation in the presence of oxygen. A very modest oxidation of vitamin C occurred in Milli-Q water and in household water samples not contaminated by copper ions. Moreover, addition of vitamin C to commercially sold domestic bottled water samples did not result in vitamin C oxidation. Our results demonstrate that ascorbic acid is rapidly oxidized to dehydroascorbic acid and further decomposed to oxalic- and threonic acid in copper contaminated household tap water that is buffered with bicarbonate. The impact of consuming ascorbic acid together with copper and bicarbonate containing drinking water on human health is discussed.

PMID
15493459 [Indexed for MEDLINE]

Nice find.

The only problem that I can spot is that it's a capture of the top of a rollercoaster and we don't know for sure what happens over the times. Here it is in perspective:

vs

Solid circle: ultra-purified wasser
Hollow square: tap wasser with less impurity
Solid triangle: tap wasser with more impurity
Hollow circle: ultra-purified wasser with added cupric chlorid and bicarbonate of soda​

Whenever possible, it's preferable to do it the most guaranteed way.

 

[Makrosky]

Nice find.

The only problem that I can spot is that it's a capture of the top of a rollercoaster and we don't know for sure what happens over the times. Here it is in perspective:

View attachment 12022 vs View attachment 12023

Solid circle: ultra-purified wasser
Hollow square: tap wasser with less impurity
Solid triangle: tap wasser with more impurity
Hollow circle: ultra-purified wasser with added cupric chlorid and bicarbonate of soda​

Whenever possible, it's preferable to do it the most guaranteed way.

Thanks.

 

[Andrew Vajda]

Nice find.

The only problem that I can spot is that it's a capture of the top of a rollercoaster and we don't know for sure what happens over the times. Here it is in perspective:

View attachment 12022 vs View attachment 12023

Solid circle: ultra-purified wasser
Hollow square: tap wasser with less impurity
Solid triangle: tap wasser with more impurity
Hollow circle: ultra-purified wasser with added cupric chlorid and bicarbonate of soda​

Whenever possible, it's preferable to do it the most guaranteed way.

Thanks Amazoniac, very good point. We don't know the drop off after the 3 hours. But at least we can avoid the 93% drop off of tap water. I use a filtration system called Berkey Travel I'm very happy with and recommend!

 

[ecstatichamster]

Just means that it is oxidized, no longer of use as an antioxidant...

Really? Not useful in the body?

L-dehydroascorbic acid can substitute l-ascorbic acid as dietary vitamin C source in guinea pigs. - PubMed - NCBI


Redox Biol. 2016 Apr;7:8-13. doi: 10.1016/j.redox.2015.11.003. Epub 2015 Nov 21.
L-dehydroascorbic acid can substitute l-ascorbic acid as dietary vitamin C source in guinea pigs.
Frikke-Schmidt H1, Tveden-Nyborg P1, Lykkesfeldt J2.
Author information

Abstract
Vitamin C deficiency globally affects several hundred million people and has been associated with increased morbidity and mortality in numerous studies. In this study, bioavailability of the oxidized form of vitamin C (l-dehydroascorbic acid or DHA)-commonly found in vitamin C containing food products prone to oxidation-was studied. Our aim was to compare tissue accumulation of vitamin C in guinea pigs receiving different oral doses of either ascorbate or DHA. In all tissues tested (plasma, liver, spleen, lung, adrenal glands, kidney, muscle, heart, and brain), only sporadic differences in vitamin C accumulation from ascorbate or DHA were observed except for the lowest dose of DHA (0.25mg/ml in the drinking water), where approximately half of the tissues had slightly yet significantly less vitamin C accumulation than from the ascorbate source. As these results contradicted data from rats, we continued to explore the ability to recycle DHA in blood, liver and intestine in guinea pigs, rats and mice. These investigations revealed that guinea pigs have similar recycling capacity in red blood cells as observed in humans, while rats and mice do not have near the same ability to reduce DHA in erythrocytes. In liver and intestinal homogenates, guinea pigs also showed a significantly higher ability to recycle DHA compared to rats and mice. These data demonstrate that DHA in guinea pigs-as in humans-is almost as effective as ascorbate as vitamin C source when it comes to taking up and storing vitamin C and further suggest that the guinea pig is superior to other rodents in modeling human vitamin C homeostasis.

 

[InChristAlone]

The problem is if your only source is DHA then you probably won't heal any disease process going on or any extra stress. I used to have guinea pigs and they got fresh food quite a bit but they still get sickly well before it's their time to go. I know other guinea pig owners who give them vitamin C tablets everyday and they still die of cancer or other diseases. In our modern world I just don't think DHA is enough.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Nobody ever said that our only source is DH ascorbic acid. But I think we have established that there is a good chance the DH version is quite useful in the human body and is not wasted. So if we use vitamin C that partially turns in the DH ascorbic acid, we are still helping ourselves.

 

[Andrew Vajda]

Nobody ever said that our only source is DH ascorbic acid. But I think we have established that there is a good chance the DH version is quite useful in the human body and is not wasted. So if we use vitamin C that partially turns in the DH ascorbic acid, we are still helping ourselves.

Yes, I shouldn't have been so categoric. The body can recharge the oxidized ascorbic acid, but you do lose that first round of 2 donor electrons per ascorbic acid molecule. I don't know what are the rates of recharge or exactly how much of a difference that makes in the absolute, but it seems a shame to waste the initial antioxidant effect you would get from non oxidized ascorbic acid.

 

[yerrag]

Nobody ever said that our only source is DH ascorbic acid. But I think we have established that there is a good chance the DH version is quite useful in the human body and is not wasted. So if we use vitamin C that partially turns in the DH ascorbic acid, we are still helping ourselves.

If you look at the study, what is being compared is the tissue accumulation of vitamin C in guinea pigs, between the intake of vitamin C and DHA. Is tissue accumulation of vitamin C a good basis for comparison in comparing the relative efficacy of vitamin C intake vs. DHA intake? Can DHA in its form act as an antioxidant? No. It has to be reduced by glutathione to become the reduced form Vitamin C. So while the body may convert DHA to vitamin C, it comes at the expense of glutathione. It's a zero sum game still. You're robbing Peter to pay Paul. What about vitamin C's role in reducing oxidized vitamin E in the membrance interface interaction between the intracellular vitamin and the extracellular vitamin E? If you start out with vitamin C, you can come out blazing with vitamin C ready to do its job of renewing the vitamin E that has been oxidized inside the cell. There is no free lunch. You can't equate the efficacy of vitamin C to DHA, its oxidized version.

 

[ecstatichamster]

If you look at the study, what is being compared is the tissue accumulation of vitamin C in guinea pigs, between the intake of vitamin C and DHA. Is tissue accumulation of vitamin C a good basis for comparison in comparing the relative efficacy of vitamin C intake vs. DHA intake? Can DHA in its form act as an antioxidant? No. It has to be reduced by glutathione to become the reduced form Vitamin C. So while the body may convert DHA to vitamin C, it comes at the expense of glutathione. It's a zero sum game still. You're robbing Peter to pay Paul. What about vitamin C's role in reducing oxidized vitamin E in the membrance interface interaction between the intracellular vitamin and the extracellular vitamin E? If you start out with vitamin C, you can come out blazing with vitamin C ready to do its job of renewing the vitamin E that has been oxidized inside the cell. There is no free lunch. You can't equate the efficacy of vitamin C to DHA, its oxidized version.

They both are useful. I’m not sure the transient lowering of GTH is an issue.

 

[yerrag]

They both are useful. I’m not sure the transient lowering of GTH is an issue.

If the goal of vitamin C intake is to augment the total antioxidant stores in the body, it doesn't make sense to me that one would consciously take DHA over vitamin C.

 

[ecstatichamster]

If the goal of vitamin C intake is to augment the total antioxidant stores in the body, it doesn't make sense to me that one would consciously take DHA over vitamin C.

I agree. But if we consume some it’s fine and still helpful. I think C is much more than an antioxidant.

 

[yerrag]

I agree. But if we consume some it’s fine and still helpful. I think C is much more than an antioxidant.

It's true that it plays a role also as a pro-oxidant, but it's the body's role to decide what it makes of vitamin C, and I don't know when it's needed to morph vitamin C into a pro-oxidant.

Also, I have the impression DHA may not just turn into vitamin C, but it could metabolize in other ways such that that it no longer turns into vitamin C. At that point, the role of vitamin C is diminished.

 

[Andrew Vajda]

I agree. But if we consume some it’s fine and still helpful. I think C is much more than an antioxidant.

Dr Cathcart wrote a paper detailing the 3 major functions of vitamin C:
http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/1992/pdf/1992-v07n04-p197.pdf
The highlights:
The Three Faces Vitamin C probably always functions by being an electron donor. At the lowest dose level (the first face), it is necessary as a vitamin to prevent scurvy. It is essential for certain metabolic functions which are well described and mostly non-controversial.

At a second level (the second face) vitamin C is still used as a vitamin but larger doses are necessary to maintain its basic vitamin C functions because the vitamin is destroyed rapidly in diseased or injured tissues where there is an overabundance of free radicals.

The third level of doses (the third face) is virtually undiscussed in the literature but is the most interesting. These doses range usually from 30 to 200 grams or more per 24 hours. The most important concept to understand is that while incidentally at these dose levels the vitamin C performs all the functions of levels one and two, it is mostly thrown away for the reducing equivalents it carries.

With these doses it is possible to saturate the body with reducing equivalents, neutralize the excessive free radicals, and drive a reducing redox potential into involved tissues. Inflammations mediated by free radicals can be eliminated or markedly reduced. In many instances patients with allergies or autoimmune diseases have their humoral immunity controlled while their cellular immunity is augmented.

To the extent that free radicals are either essential to the perpetuation of a disease or just part of the cause of symptoms, the disease will be cured or just ameliorated. The list of diseases involving free radicals continues to grow. Infections, cardiovascular diseases, cancer, trauma, burns both thermal and radiation, surgeries, allergies, autoimmune diseases and aging are now included. It is more difficult to think of a disease that does not involve free radicals.

 

[Andrew Vajda]

Dr Cathcart wrote a paper detailing the 3 major functions of vitamin C:
http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/1992/pdf/1992-v07n04-p197.pdf
The highlights:
The Three Faces Vitamin C probably always functions by being an electron donor. At the lowest dose level (the first face), it is necessary as a vitamin to prevent scurvy. It is essential for certain metabolic functions which are well described and mostly non-controversial.

At a second level (the second face) vitamin C is still used as a vitamin but larger doses are necessary to maintain its basic vitamin C functions because the vitamin is destroyed rapidly in diseased or injured tissues where there is an overabundance of free radicals.

The third level of doses (the third face) is virtually undiscussed in the literature but is the most interesting. These doses range usually from 30 to 200 grams or more per 24 hours. The most important concept to understand is that while incidentally at these dose levels the vitamin C performs all the functions of levels one and two, it is mostly thrown away for the reducing equivalents it carries.

With these doses it is possible to saturate the body with reducing equivalents, neutralize the excessive free radicals, and drive a reducing redox potential into involved tissues. Inflammations mediated by free radicals can be eliminated or markedly reduced. In many instances patients with allergies or autoimmune diseases have their humoral immunity controlled while their cellular immunity is augmented.

To the extent that free radicals are either essential to the perpetuation of a disease or just part of the cause of symptoms, the disease will be cured or just ameliorated. The list of diseases involving free radicals continues to grow. Infections, cardiovascular diseases, cancer, trauma, burns both thermal and radiation, surgeries, allergies, autoimmune diseases and aging are now included. It is more difficult to think of a disease that does not involve free radicals.

Replying to myself so the 2nd paper won't get buried...

Dr Cathcart later wrote a paper with Dr Hickey, (author of Ridiculous Dietary Allowance and Ascorbate) that continued to explore the function of vitamin C in humans:
Dynamic Flow: A New Model for Ascorbate
http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/2005/pdf/2005-v20n04-p237.pdf

 

[Waynish]

Seems like people had some negative side effects to Vitamin C they didn't want to have to explain, so they just assumed it was due to impurities - and not some other phenomena... Then they repeated to everyone that Vitamin C is so impure :P

 

[yerrag]

Seems like people had some negative side effects to Vitamin C they didn't want to have to explain, so they just assumed it was due to impurities - and not some other phenomena... Then they repeated to everyone that Vitamin C is so impure :P

Like Ray Peat?

 

[Amazoniac]

Seems like people had some negative side effects to Vitamin C they didn't want to have to explain, so they just assumed it was due to impurities - and not some other phenomena... Then they repeated to everyone that Vitamin C is so impure :P

Waynish, let's say that you're a loyal customer of a brothel, not because of lack of options, but because you consider it a fair transaction and enjoy the convenience of it. Helvetica is your favorite, you always return for more. But one day the pimp informs you that she was fired and Destiny along with her friends are now the new team; this is a result of some modifications in the house, the only comforting aspect is that the price was lowered. You decide to go for it but end up with a worrying itch around the janitors. What to suspect in this case? You don't know where to find Helvetica but it seems that it's going to be difficult to find prostitutes of her caliber. The reputation of the brothel is now questionable. Would you insist or move on to unpaid options?

 

[Lucas]

It is true that ascorbic acid depletes copper and ceruloplasmin and we should take whole food vitamin C, like Morley Robbins says?