Pyridoxine Vs. P5P

[Frankdee20]

I am 39 years old, and have always responded well to regular old Pyridoxine HCL, going as high as 75-100MG whenever I did use it. No side effects ever, and it really lifted my spirits better than any other supplement has. I have never tried the P5P variant however, except when it came in B complex formulas, so I am asking what subtle differences exist between them both ? Regular B6 lifts my mood and makes me more outgoing socially, faster reaction time, and awesome in general.

 

[Vinny]

I wish to know the difference too.
@redsun

 

[redsun]

Well P5P is the more active form so it doesnt depend on differences in conversion between different people and is more potent as well naturally and therefore less P5P will have a greater effect. I have used Pyridoxine HCL and it has helped me in every facet of living, some more then others especially, mood, concentration/attention, its good for just about everything as B6 has a role in making every type of protein in the body either directly or indirectly.

That being said, the moment I tried P5P I knew it was better. Works way better then the non active version.

@Frankdee20 I am confident that P5P will be even more helpful for the things you mentioned then pyridoxine HCL.

 

[Frankdee20]

nice

 

[Amazoniac]

There's the problem that Mito talked about: a likely possibility of them being broken down during digestion, casting a shadow on the idea of dietary active form. Zeus believes that this doesn't occur if applied topically, but I never bothered to look into it.

- The Role of B Group Vitamins and Choline in Cognition and Brain Aging

"Absorption in the gut is mediated by a not saturable passive diffusion system for nonphosphorylated forms of vB6 (a phosphatase hydrolyzes 5'-phosphate forms of vB6, no saturation effect has been seen even for extremely high doses) (Institute of all the Medicines, 1998). Bioavailability varies among different vitamers of vB6 group; in a mixed diet, the mean absorption of the vitamers has been estimated to reach values of 75% of the ingested dose. The absorbed part of dietary source is phosphorylated in the liver and stored bound to proteins (Institute of all the Medicines, 1998)."​

Pyridoxal is still one step closer to its activation, if you could find pyridoxal HCl for sale, it would be cool to compare it with 5'-phosphate.
- Vitamin B6 - Wikipedia

- The Consequences Of Cheese As A Main Source Of Protein (skip to the end)

 

[Frankdee20]

Methylfolate also helps depression but I’m not sure if it surpasses B6 in effectiveness or how it works and their differences

 

[baccheion]

P-5'-P is the active form of B6. Pyridoxine is converted to P-5'-P. 5 mg B6 from pyridoxine = 1 mg B6 from P-5'-P. People usually include P-5'-P when needing higher amounts of B6, as excess pyridoxine is associated with peripheral neuropathy (likely due to accumulation rather than conversion to active B6) and other side effects.

A 1:1 split between pyridoxine and P-5'-P is technically the way to supplement regular amounts. As more pyridoxine is needed for the same effect, the ratio becomes 5 mg B6 as pyridoxine for each 1 mg as P-5'-P. That's like taking 10 mg as pyridoxine or 2 mg as P-5'-P.

Magnesium is needed to activate B2 and B2 to activate B6. Needing more B6 can suggest low magnesium and/or B2.

 

[Amazoniac]

- Modern nutrition in health and disease (978-1-60547-461-8)

"The interconversion and metabolism of vitamin B6 depend on riboflavin, niacin, and zinc (see Fig. 24.2). Both PN (PM) phosphate oxidase and aldehyde oxidase require riboflavin in the forms of FMN and FAD, respectively. Niacin, as NAD, serves as coenzyme for aldehyde dehydrogenase. The phosphorylation of vitamin B6 is catalyzed by PL kinase, which requires zinc as cofactor. Insufficient dietary intake of these nutrients may adversely affect the metabolic utilization of vitamin B6." "Niacin, folate, and carnitine require vitamin B6 for their biosynthesis and metabolism."

Spoiler: Fig. 24.2

- Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism (978-1-133-10405-6)

"For vitamin B6 to be absorbed, the phosphorylated vitamers must be dephosphorylated. Alkaline phosphatase, a zinc-dependent enzyme found at the intestinal brush border, or other intestinal phosphatases, hydrolyze the phosphate from the phosphorylated vitamers to yield free pyridoxine (PN), pyridoxal (PL), or pyridoxamine (PM)."

"PL, PN, and PM are absorbed primarily in the jejunum by passive diffusion. At physiological intakes, the vitamin is absorbed rapidly in its free form; however, when the phosphorylated vitamers are ingested in high concentrations, some of these compounds may be absorbed without dephosphorylation. Absorption of some pyridoxine glucosides may also occur by passive diffusion, although mucosal glucosidase typically hydrolyzes the glucosides to free the vitamin. Overall absorption of vitamin B6 furnished by the average U.S. diet is about 75%, with a range of about 61% to 92% [1]."

"Little metabolism of the vitamin occurs within the intestinal cell, although some PN may be converted to PNP and PLP. Most PN, PL, and PM are released directly into portal blood."

"The liver is the main organ that takes up (by passive diffusion) and metabolizes newly absorbed vitamin B6." "Unphosphorylated forms of the vitamin typically are phosphorylated by a kinase using ATP within the cytosol of the hepatocyte (liver cell) as well as other organs. PNP and PMP are then generally converted by the action of an FMN-dependent oxidase to the main vitamer PLP; the oxidase that catalyzes this reaction is dependent upon adequate riboflavin status and is found mainly in the liver and intestine and to lesser extents in the muscle, kidneys, brain, and red blood cells. Intracellular PLP concentrations are dependent, in part, upon the availability of binding proteins. With saturation of binding proteins, unbound PLP is hydrolyzed to PL, which is released into the blood for use by other tissues. From the liver, mostly PLP and PL, with smaller amounts of the other vitamers, are released into the blood for transport to extrahepatic tissues."

"PLP is the main (60–90% of the total) form of the vitamin found in systemic blood. Most PLP in the plasma is bound to albumin. Other forms of the vitamin present in small amounts in the blood (also bound primarily to albumin) include PL, PN, PM, and PMP; unphosphorylated vitamers taken up by red blood cells are converted to PLP and bound to hemoglobin. Because only unphosphorylated vitamers may be taken up by other body tissues, PLP is typically hydrolyzed by alkaline phosphatase prior to cellular uptake."

"Muscles represent the major (75–80%) storage site for the vitamin, which is found in the body in amounts ranging from about 40 to 185 mg. The liver stores about 5% to 10%. Most vitamin B6 occurs in muscle as PLP bound to glycogen phosphorylase. Phosphorylation of the vitamin prevents its diffusion out of the cell, and the binding of the vitamin to protein prevents hydrolysis by phosphatases. Other tissues with substantial amounts of the vitamin are the brain, kidneys, and spleen; in these tissues the vitamin is found in a coenzyme form typically bound to enzymes."​

 

[Frankdee20]

The problem with B6 is the effect stopped working (possibly due to inhibition of p5p). Just starting P5p at 50 mg from pure

 

[lampofred]

B6 is depleted by hyperventilation. Retaining B6 is more a matter of reducing stress than of taking more B6 imo.

 

[ddjd]

p5p completely stopped my dandruff. I was taking regular b6 for years without much effect

 

[ddjd]

The problem with B6 is the effect stopped working (possibly due to inhibition of p5p). Just starting P5p at 50 mg from pure

Frank out of interest did you get the same effect from p5p as with regular b6??

I am confident that P5P will be even more helpful for the things you mentioned then pyridoxine HCL

i would argue the complete opposite in that ive found them to have totally different effects

 

[Frankdee20]

Frank out of interest did you get the same effect from p5p as with regular b6??


i would argue the complete opposite in that ive found them to have totally different effects

I liked P5P and I felt it was more consistent, for some reason, plain B6 stopped working after the initial mood enhancement effects .

 

[dukesbobby777]

I liked P5P and I felt it was more consistent, for some reason, plain B6 stopped working after the initial mood enhancement effects .

Same with me. I used to get powerful antidepressant effects from it, but now it has zero effects.

But when I think about other Peat recommended supplements, the same thing has happened. Vitamin E used to be a great libido enhancer, but now doesn’t do anything.

Tolerance must occur, but also you might reason that levels within the body become replete (if indeed they were short to begin with).

 

[Frankdee20]

Same with me. I used to get powerful antidepressant effects from it, but now it has zero effects.

But when I think about other Peat recommended supplements, the same thing has happened. Vitamin E used to be a great libido enhancer, but now doesn’t do anything.

Tolerance must occur, but also you might reason that levels within the body become replete (if indeed they were short to begin with).

Yes, everything goes back to baseline, no matter what you take, I don’t care how powerful.... But I did get consistent effect from P5P versus plain B6

 

[Amazoniac]

- The Plasma Cysteine/Sulphate Ratio: A Possible Clinical Biomarker

Spoiler

- Abnormal Tryptophan Metabolism in Patients with Adult Celiac Disease, with Evidence for Deficiency of Vitamin B6

Spoiler

- Vitamin B6 | DSM

"Pyridoxal phosphate functions in practically all reactions involved in amino acid metabolism, including transamination, decarboxylation, deamination and desulfhydration, as well as the hydrolysis and synthesis of amino acids."​

Imagine someone prone to deficiency consuming refined carbohydrates and cheese with collagen.

 

[Amazoniac]

- Determination of total vitamin B6 in foods by isocratic HPLC: A comparison with microbiological analysis

- Determination and evaluation of the pyridoxal, pyridoxine, and pyridoxamine forms of vitamin B6 in plant-based foods in terms of healthy vegetarian nutrition
- Determination and evaluation in terms of healthy nutrition of the pyridoxal, pyridoxine and pyridoxamine forms of vitamin in animal-derived foods

 

[ddjd]

I am 39 years old, and have always responded well to regular old Pyridoxine HCL, going as high as 75-100MG whenever I did use it. No side effects ever, and it really lifted my spirits better than any other supplement has. I have never tried the P5P variant however, except when it came in B complex formulas, so I am asking what subtle differences exist between them both ? Regular B6 lifts my mood and makes me more outgoing socially, faster reaction time, and awesome in general.

Did you ever look into pyroluria? I'm pretty sure I have it and I get the same crazy uplifting effect after taking regular b6, but not p5p

 

[ddjd]

just found this on the heartfixer website

"Avoid B6 (unless you need it for other functions), which stimulates CBS. The active form of B6, P-5-P, is less of a problem here and serves as a B6 substitute."

maybe we benefit from cbs stimulation?

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