PUFAS,Beta Carotene And Fruits

[Dutchie]

From Jenn I've learned that Beta-Carotene is PUFA which should be avoided as much as possible.

But what I find contradictory is that the fruits that Ray recommends are actually in Top 10 of fruits richest in Beta Carotene,thus PUFAS. (Watermelon,Mango,cherries,Papaya...then there's the carrot)

And also I read much about tryptophan avoidance,yet dairy is one of the sources highest in tryptophan?

 

[j.]

A lot of the beta carotene in carrots is not absorbed if it is raw.

 

[4peatssake]

From Jenn I've learned that Beta-Carotene is PUFA which should be avoided as much as possible.

But what I find contradictory is that the fruits that Ray recommends are actually in Top 10 of fruits richest in Beta Carotene,thus PUFAS. (Watermelon,Mango,cherries,Papaya...then there's the carrot)

And also I read much about tryptophan avoidance,yet dairy is one of the sources highest in tryptophan?

Dutchie, I don't think beta carotene is a pufa per se - but it can act like one.

There is a thread discussing Pufa and Carotene that you may wish to read.

http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&f=10&p=10016

What may seem "contradictory" in many instances are situations where Ray Peat can see that the benefit of something outweighing the drawback and/or in many cases when you add something (in many instances coconut oil or gelatin) it mitigates any potential harm.

It's difficult to get a full understanding of his recommendations if you focus upon a single nutrient. It akin to trying to understand an entire forest by examining the individual trees. This is why context and gaining a broad understanding of Ray Peat's wisdom and recommendations is so important.

You will see in the previous thread on carotene some discussion for how to reduce the carotene in raw carrot. Peat considers the intestinal benefit of eating a raw carrot salad to outweigh the beta carotene.

 

[Jenn]

The benefits of Calcium can outweigh the negatives of tryptophan in milk, depending on the person. A child still needs the tryptophan and it is NOT a negative for them. Cheese is a better source of dairy for adults as the process reduces tryptophan. Milk can be easier to assimilate for someone with digestive issues than cheese. There was a time, drinking milk too late in the afternoon would keep me up at night, overstimulated. Not anymore.

You have to pay attention to how food affects you as an individual.

As for PUFAs and carotene, you have to pay attention the whole picture. I avoid "top ten" lists for genuine info. For example, a banana is promoted as an "excellent" source of potassium, it's actually relatively low in potassium compared to the starch it contains.

 

[Dutchie]

Thanx, people responded about the raw carrot and beta carrotene but i was actually pointing more at all the fruit in the diet.

i also wondered if for some reason beta carotene or pufa/fats is highest. in the flesh or in the skin of a fruit?

 

[Jenn]

I, personally, wouldn't worry about it. It's minimal regardless.

 

[Dutchie]

Yeah,I know it's minimal but I just was wondering bc I noticed this weird thing.

I eat all kinds of dates,mostly Medjool from different sellers and they all differ in taste,texture and I think nutrients bc I often crave dates from a certain seller at a certain time.
There is also this other type of small but sweet,dark&moist dates and for some reason, I feel better when I only eat the flesh out of the skin (with or without salt). All the other dates I can eat with skin.
But I'm still on the fence regarding them if they're actually beneficial bc I sometimes mentally/mood&energywise feel weird/bad after eating them. So,that's when I thougth of your comment about PUFAS&betacarotene since they're very dark purplish....and bc of the skin-thing I thougth that maybe most beta-carotene is in there? Though I'd say rationally thinking that beta-carotene is in the flesh.
And I've also never seen a fruit that's so high in proteine......on the box it says : 6grams of proteine per 100grams.

 

[Giraffe]

I came accross this the other day:

Regulatory control of carotenoid accumulation in winter squash during storage
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25139277

"Storage promotes carotenoid accumulation and converts amylochromoplasts into chromoplasts in winter squash..."

 

[Westside PUFAs]

From Jenn I've learned that Beta-Carotene is PUFA which should be avoided as much as possible.

But what I find contradictory is that the fruits that Ray recommends are actually in Top 10 of fruits richest in Beta Carotene,thus PUFAS. (Watermelon,Mango,cherries,Papaya...then there's the carrot)

And also I read much about tryptophan avoidance,yet dairy is one of the sources highest in tryptophan?

Kasra: "How serious of a problem is vitamin A deficiency on an all-fruit diet?"

Peat: "Most fruits contain some carotene, and with vitamin B12 and good thyroid function, that will be turned into vitamin A."

 

[pboy]

beta carotene isn't a problem unless you mega dose it, basically the only way to do that is massive amounts of cooked greens, cooked carrots or carrot juice, sweet potato's, butternut squash and pumpkins....the amount in fruit is low enough to where its nearly impossible, with the exception of cantaloupe, to ever over do it, perhaps a ton of papaya I guess also but even so

just as a reference, when I was a vegan I would eat copious amounts of beta carotene cause I would eat the algea supplements and frequently ate carrots, goji berries, and things like that, obviously had just about no b12 intake, and I never got orange callouses or anything. I even went like a couple months sometime in there drinking a cup or 2 of carrot juice every day (providing 800% carotene) and never had orange callouses. So it actually takes quite a bit to become a problem, and actually your body has a detection mechanism...that kinda high pitched orange note that's in carrots and sweet potatoes, like if you don't need it, and you look at them or smell them its sorta offensive so you can usually tell, and vice versa, when you are deficient, they look extra good as well as tomatoes and things like that

theres basically no need to worry about beta carotene in fruit

even when ray speaks of cooked greens as a calcium source or protein source I never have heard him mention the beta carotene even though they are pretty high in it...I think he's mostly concerned about sweet potatoes and carrot juice or like cooked carrots, and especially in the presence of starch...apparently it can interfere with starch digestion or something, though I'm not sure if that's the case. I used to eat rice and carrots and never had a problem, but sweet potatoes, even the white ones, create massive gas havoc...so I think its just something about the nature of sweet potatoes themselves, but nonetheless maybe it does interfere a little bit

if I had to guess, I would say...the safe range is probably like around 300-400%ish a day or your body probably gets saturated over time then ends up just having to detox it in the bile or urine every time you eat it. This is without any preformed vitamin A, depending on your vitamin A intake you'd proportionally lower carotene intake

Just as a note, I ususally was getting in about 50-80% preformed vitamin A a day from milk so id take 80% beta carotene of red palm oil each day to shore up my vitamin A, I was doing this for like a year...recently I haven't drinkin any milk so no preformed, and haven't eaten any beta carotene (trace amoutns in like oranges or whatever), and if I look at carrots or sweet potatoes I'm turned off by the orange, and its been like a week since ive eaten any substantial vitamin A...meaning my body was able to store an abundance even with that minor intake, but also based on my experience from the past, excess isn't a problem...it never was to me, so I suspect it takes something of the caliber of like when Peat says his palms turned orange he was drinking like a ton of carrot juice every day, or potentially orange sweet potatoes or pumpkin every day could become an issue

and as per tryptophan in milk, its so low in niacin that most of the tryptophan will become niacin to prevent a deficiency as opposed to serotonin. If you look at peats basic diet, OJ is also very low in niacin, eggs as well, although coffee has a substantial amount, but like if you keep niacin intake low (this was my approach) then tryptophan will be converted and not be harmful. If you ate significant niacin and had a h igh milk intake, it probably would be a bad thing...or make you very susceptible to serotonin if you ever got like irritated or constipated at all. For a while I was drinking mate tea which is high in niacin and had the high milk intake and what not, and if I ever got irritated or anything that would trigger a state of serotonin, id feel it and have more of that pull towards wanting to just lay down for a minute or whatever, and the thoughts would be prone to be more peccimistic...when I stopped drinking mate, my niacin intake was basically like extremely low, and even if id get irritated, id feel a lack of like dopamine and whatever, but that sedated feeling and peccimistic thoughts wouldn't come in...basically the body potentially wanted to trigger serotonin but there wasn't any to be released, so even though id not be thriving at the moment, I also wasn't doing any damage or having negative thoughts. it was significant enough to notice. I think keeping dietary niacin low is a huge protective thing on those grounds alone

 

[Giraffe]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/95853/ beta carotene isn't a problem unless you mega dose it, basically the only way to do that is massive amounts of cooked greens, cooked carrots or carrot juice, sweet potato's, butternut squash and pumpkins....the amount in fruit is low enough to where its nearly impossible, with the exception of cantaloupe, to ever over do it, perhaps a ton of papaya I guess also but even so

For me the beta-carotene in fruits is sufficient to cause orange calluses on hands and feet.

 

[pboy]

that seems kinda unreasonable, not denying its possibility, but like...humans haven't always had access, like most animals other than carnivores, to preformed vitamin A. Its kind of a luxury but shouldnt be a necessity. We are designed to actually get vitamin A from beta carotene, or rather, equipped and prepared for that. Theres probably some other problem you are having. Its why supplementing and taking meds and doing weird things over the years is a bad deal, even normal processes get messed up and you end up never knowing the real reason behind things and end up forming beliefs and fears about things that you shouldn't, become dependent on things and never truly develop a foundation and intimate knowledge, ect ect . I'm not saying you did those things, but if you are getting orange callouses from beta carotene in fruit alone that's like a big deal and definitely shouldn't be happening, and isn't like normal for most people. Youd basically have to be like extraordinarily hypothyroid and/or have a very limited to non functioning biliary system

 

[Giraffe]

No, I did not do those things in the past. I am hypothyroid with no hope to get diagnosed as hypothyroid, and thyroid meds are prescription drugs where I live.

 

[pboy]

I c

 

[FredSonoma]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/95853/
and as per tryptophan in milk, its so low in niacin that most of the tryptophan will become niacin to prevent a deficiency as opposed to serotonin. If you look at peats basic diet, OJ is also very low in niacin, eggs as well, although coffee has a substantial amount, but like if you keep niacin intake low (this was my approach) then tryptophan will be converted and not be harmful. If you ate significant niacin and had a h igh milk intake, it probably would be a bad thing...or make you very susceptible to serotonin if you ever got like irritated or constipated at all. For a while I was drinking mate tea which is high in niacin and had the high milk intake and what not, and if I ever got irritated or anything that would trigger a state of serotonin, id feel it and have more of that pull towards wanting to just lay down for a minute or whatever, and the thoughts would be prone to be more peccimistic...when I stopped drinking mate, my niacin intake was basically like extremely low, and even if id get irritated, id feel a lack of like dopamine and whatever, but that sedated feeling and peccimistic thoughts wouldn't come in...basically the body potentially wanted to trigger serotonin but there wasn't any to be released, so even though id not be thriving at the moment, I also wasn't doing any damage or having negative thoughts. it was significant enough to notice. I think keeping dietary niacin low is a huge protective thing on those grounds alone

That's really interesting - does anyone else have thoughts on this? Could this mean that taking a niacinamide supplement would make trytophan more likely to become serotonin?

 

[tara]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/95870/ that seems kinda unreasonable, not denying its possibility, but like...humans haven't always had access, like most animals other than carnivores, to preformed vitamin A. Its kind of a luxury but shouldnt be a necessity. We are designed to actually get vitamin A from beta carotene, or rather, equipped and prepared for that. Theres probably some other problem you are having. Its why supplementing and taking meds and doing weird things over the years is a bad deal, even normal processes get messed up and you end up never knowing the real reason behind things and end up forming beliefs and fears about things that you shouldn't, become dependent on things and never truly develop a foundation and intimate knowledge, ect ect . I'm not saying you did those things, but if you are getting orange callouses from beta carotene in fruit alone that's like a big deal and definitely shouldn't be happening, and isn't like normal for most people. Youd basically have to be like extraordinarily hypothyroid and/or have a very limited to non functioning biliary system

Yes bad thing, yes shouldn't be happening. But remember that the posters on this forum are probably disproportionately hypothyroid, some severely so. That's why many of us are here. So assuming all normal processes are fully functioning is not justified. So most healthy people may handle beta-carotenes fine, and benefit from a certain amount, but that doesn't necessarily mean most people on this forum will be able to do the same.

Also, I think humans have evolved as omnivores, as far as our anatomy is concerned. Not actually designed to be vegan, though we are very adaptable and can survive of plant foods for quite a long time if we have to, especially if you have access to abundant good fruit. Fat-soluble vitamins store reasonably well, so if you get a good supply from time to time you don't need them every day.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Ray Peat On Beta Carotene Conversion To Vitamin A