PUFA is cardiotoxic, vitamin E protective (in reasonable doses)

[haidut]

The oil used was oxidized sunflower oil, but I don't see why it would not apply to other PUFA as well. As little as 5% sunflower oil in the diet induced heart damage. Vitamin E (alpha tocopherol) protected the heart, but at higher doses (more than 7,000mg per day) it enhanced the damage. Of course, I don't think anybody would take such a higher dose and even the Shute brothers limited their protocol to about 5,000mg daily.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25497780

 

[johns74]

It's not a study about vitamin E. It's a study about alpha tocopherol. People with some cardiac problems tend to have low gamma tocopherol.

 

[haidut]

It's not a study about vitamin E. It's a study about alpha tocopherol. People with some cardiac problems tend to have low gamma tocopherol.

That's correct, but technically all tocopherol and tocorienol isomers are called "vitamin E". So, I will edit the post to say that it was alpha tocopherol that was used.

 

[johns74]

It gives the impression that it studies the effects of increasing vitamin E, but if it decreases gamma tocopherol, it's actually telling you what happens when you reduce vitamin E. It attributes to increasing vitamin E the effects of reducing Vitamin E.

 

[haidut]

It gives the impression that it studies the effects of increasing vitamin E, but if it decreases gamma tocopherol, it's actually telling you what happens when you reduce vitamin E. It attributes to increasing vitamin E the effects of reducing Vitamin E.

How do you know that the decrease of gamma tocopherol in heart patients is not an adaptive/protective mechanism aimed at protecting the heart? There are studies claiming that the body treats gamma tocopherol like a toxin and metabolizes it accordingly and very differently from alpha tocopherol. Are there studies you can share that show gamma tocopherol protects the heart?

 

[johns74]

I'm just claiming that if it reduces vitamin E, it misleads when it gives the impression that it increases vitamin E.

I'm not assuming that gamma tocopherol is protective.

 

[johns74]

There are studies claiming that the body treats gamma tocopherol like a toxin and metabolizes it accordingly and very differently from alpha tocopherol.

In mice it prevents prostate cancer, so it seems like a nice toxin.

 

[haidut]

There are studies claiming that the body treats gamma tocopherol like a toxin and metabolizes it accordingly and very differently from alpha tocopherol.

In mice it prevents prostate cancer, so it seems like a nice toxin.

Yes, and there several studies showing in mice it lowers estrogen and reduces breast cancer mortality. I posted them several months ago, and the estrogen reduction was tied to gamma tocopherol. I know it (gamma) has published benefits, but if you search the forum you will see people arguing over its benefits and the fact that all the earlier studies (before 1950s) showing benefits were done with alpha tocopherol only. I am not arguing either way, just saying that supplementing with alpha tocopherol will increase alpha tocopherol stores and that counts as increasing "vitamin E" concentrations. If you go to your doctor and ask for a prescription for vitamin E, you will likely get one for either alpha-tocopherol-acetate or pure alpha tocopherol. Also, lab tests measure alpha tocopherol concentrations only (at least in US for labs like LabCorp and Quest) when you ask for a blood test for "vitamin E". So, I think the title of my post is legit as long as I specify that it was alpha tocopherol used. If it was gamma tocopherol I would have said the same and clarified in the text that gamma tocopherol was used. This is done mostly for search friendliness. Mos people search the forum for "vitamin E" rather than "tocopherol" so using both "vitamin E" and "alpha tocopherol" increases the chance that people can find this post.

 

[Such_Saturation]

One of the few points where Ray Peat's advice condenses from the qualitative to the quantitative state is the less than four grams of PUFA a day. It is unfortunate that so few respect this.

 

[johns74]

I still think it's wrong to reduce vitamin E and give the impression that one increased it (the way it's written now though is clear).

It just seems so obvious that reducing vitamin E and then saying 'see, this is what happens when you increase vitamin E' is misleading. That other people are doing it also just means other people are being misleading as well.

 

[jyb]

One of the few points where Ray Peat's advice condenses from the qualitative to the quantitative state is the less than four grams of PUFA a day. It is unfortunate that so few respect this.

So why did he write about ratio to sat fat being important? If you have a lot of dairy (and hence more than 4g of pufa, depending on what dairy products) and you don't gain weight (which maybe implies accumulation of pufa), I see nowhere in the articles saying that's better or worse.

 

[Such_Saturation]

One of the few points where Ray Peat's advice condenses from the qualitative to the quantitative state is the less than four grams of PUFA a day. It is unfortunate that so few respect this.

So why did he write about ratio to sat fat being important? If you have a lot of dairy (and hence more than 4g of pufa, depending on what dairy products) and you don't gain weight (which maybe implies accumulation of pufa), I see nowhere in the articles saying that's better or worse.

Ray Peat has said that, on occasion, and then that a few grams is the body's buffering limit, and then he stays under two grams in his private life. It is difficult to remember the context of the words but sometimes Ray Peat is talking about disease prevention, sometimes about disease reversal, sometimes about healthy aging, sometimes about an ideal state of health which is out there but the likes of which we have never seen endeavored. It hurts that many of those variations are heard in the radio sessions, especially since he is asked the same things over and over and tries to make it a little interesting.

You could eat a pound of PUFA a day and keep a vitamin E drip in your arm and you perhaps wouldn't get heart disease. So this could also be something to come out of Ray Peat's lips, but there is no implication that you should try it, feel in a certain way, and think all other things he has said will make you feel no better or are equivalent.

 

[johns74]

The amount of risks anyone would assume is obviously a personal decision. Complaining about it just means you have too much time on your hands. Did you take a poll and know the percentage of people that disregard the advice? Even if you learned from Ray Peat that PUFA is bad and consume less than 4 grams, you could benefit from vitamin E while your stores are being depleted, which can take a long time.

 

[jyb]

You could eat a pound of PUFA a day and keep a vitamin E drip in your arm and you perhaps wouldn't get heart disease. So this could also be something to come out of Ray Peat's lips, but there is no implication that you should try it, feel in a certain way, and think all other things he has said will make you feel no better or are equivalent.

Ok but you'd have to ask him in detail for the 2grams, which is pretty restrictive on dairy products (and I'm not even talking about ice cream or 1 egg). There could be reasons he goes under 2grams strictly and that may be suboptimal to a more general case in the spirit of a healthy metabolism. I'm not talking eating pufa for the sake of it and then adjusting with vitamin E...

 

[Such_Saturation]

You could eat a pound of PUFA a day and keep a vitamin E drip in your arm and you perhaps wouldn't get heart disease. So this could also be something to come out of Ray Peat's lips, but there is no implication that you should try it, feel in a certain way, and think all other things he has said will make you feel no better or are equivalent.

Ok but you'd have to ask him in detail for the 2grams, which is pretty restrictive on dairy products (and I'm not even talking about ice cream or 1 egg). There could be reasons he goes under 2grams strictly and that may be suboptimal to a more general case in the spirit of a healthy metabolism. I'm not talking eating pufa for the sake of it and then adjusting with vitamin E...

Oh, it is very easy to do with skim milk. But for example, the "symptoms" of "E"FA "deficiency" appear much under two grams. In humans I think there are only a few cases involving artificial tube-feeding formula. So if somehow metabolism has a super-sharp rise at those levels, that would make even one gram of PUFA very suboptimal (unless you have limited food available).

 

[jyb]

Oh, it is very easy to do with skim milk. But for example, the "symptoms" of "E"FA "deficiency" appear much under two grams. In humans I think there are only a few cases involving artificial tube-feeding formula. So if somehow metabolism has a super-sharp rise at those levels, that would make even one gram of PUFA very suboptimal (unless you have limited food available).

I've tried skimmed milk for a long time but my metabolism had a super-sharp...sub-optimality. But his advice for ice cream before bed has been useful for me for example and I only saw bad effects when going on the very low fat, though it wasn't under the 1-2 grams.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Oh, it is very easy to do with skim milk. But for example, the "symptoms" of "E"FA "deficiency" appear much under two grams. In humans I think there are only a few cases involving artificial tube-feeding formula. So if somehow metabolism has a super-sharp rise at those levels, that would make even one gram of PUFA very suboptimal (unless you have limited food available).

I've tried skimmed milk for a long time but my metabolism had a super-shard...sub-optimality. But his advice for ice cream before bed has been useful for me for example and I only saw bad effects when going on the very low fat, though it wasn't under the 1-2 grams.

The way you get there is very important, skim milk does lack many good things of milk and you will have to replace them without putting the PUFA back in. I think with ice-cream and someone who is getting better, the good is more than the bad effect, since you need the energy and, on many levels, when you are a cold body the PUFA and estrogen are almost a requirement, not just a causative factor. Fish are full of PUFA and they couldn't do otherwise since they are so cold. Some even have "antifreeze" proteins. The water structure inside you is needed for life and it doesn't matter how you get it, but you must have it to be alive.

 

[johns74]

In one study a person went less than 2 grams of total fat for 6 months and his health only improved. No EFA deficiency symptoms.

 

[Such_Saturation]

In one study a person went less than 2 grams of total fat for 6 months and his health only improved. No EFA deficiency symptoms.

Yeah by "much under two grams" I meant "much less than two grams".