PUFA, Heated Or Unheated. Equally As Bad For You?

[Captain_Coconut]

I've been wondering if a large part of what makes PUFA so toxic is that it is mainly being consumed cooked, which kick-starts the oxidization. E.g. potato chips sitting in a bag for 6 months before consumption, deep fryer oil being reused for weeks and weeks, or simply pre-existent oil oxidation from poor processing or storage. Blech. Anyway I'm curious if the same danger would exist if PUFA were being consumed uncooked. I'm curious which of these would be worse for ones health:

Consuming 2 tablespoons of corn oil via a dish that was baked in the oven for an hour at 400 f.

or

Consuming the same dish as above, but where the oil was not added until after the dish had cooled.

Imagine you did this for a full year between two groups, what would the outcome be? Are there any studies the board can refer me to that happen to touch on this question?

My intuition tells me there has to be something worse about eating cooked pufa than uncooked pufa, but so far the gist I get from following RP is that all PUFA is equally bad. But certainly consuming fully rancid oil has to have more serious negative health effects, or does it all end up oxidizing (going rancid) at a cellular level anyway?

 

[meatbag]

I was reading this and I remembered this quote;
"When meat is grilled at a high temperature, the normally spaced double bonds in PUFA migrate towards each other, becoming more stable, so that linoleic acid is turned into “conjugated linoleic acid.” This analog of the “essential” linoleic acid competes against the linoleic acid in tissues, and protects against cancer, atherosclerosis, inflammation and other effects of the normal PUFA. Presumably, anything which interferes with the essential fatty acids is protective, when the organism contains dangerous amounts of PUFA. Even the trans-isomers of the unsaturated fatty acids (found in butterfat, and convertible into conjugated linoleic acid) can be protective against cancer."-Fats and degeneration

I think one of the problems is that the unoxidized PUFAs are incorporated into tissues and although the peroxides formed by heating are harmful when ingested one of the problems with the incorporation of the oils is that they are oxidized slowly over time and interfrere with certain physiological functions (described in length by Ray Peat and on this forum) when they are incorporated into tissues. So while the byproducts of heating the PUFAs are harmful they may not be as bad in the long term of the as incorporation of the unheated long double bond lipids into the tissues. But then again I'm sure if a person consumed a high enough amount of the byproducts consistently it would obviously be not so great for them

"With aging, the highly peroxidizable fatty acids, arachidonic and docosahexaenoic acid, increase greatly in a variety of tissues, and lipid peroxidation increases with aging. Peroxidation slows mitochondrial respiration, lowering the metabolic rate. Caloric restriction slows the accumulation of the highly unsaturated fatty acids in mitochondria, and reduces peroxidation." - Unsaturated fatty acids: Nutritionally essential, or toxic?

So it seems there is probably not much of a difference since it is going to go rancid inside of you where there is plenty of heat, oxygen, etc

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Thank you meatbag. I will continue researching lipid peroxidation.

I am just trying to develop a strategy for eating pufa when there is no alternative. Like if I were at a gas station where my only option is peanuts or a bag of chips. Cooked vs uncooked pufa....

The other thing I have had trouble understanding is if Vitamin E is fat soluble, then would taking large doses of E a couple times a week be an effective strategy to limit PUFA damage, or is it more effective to take the Vitamin E at the same time pufa is consumed. I guess the question would be: Is the pufa a greater health offender at the gastrointestinal level, or at the cellular level, can vitamin e fat stores combat gastrointestinal (not done assimilating) pufa?

 

[tara]

Like if I were at a gas station where my only option is peanuts or a bag of chips.

Perhaps your gas stations might have milk or juice or sweet drinks or chocolate or other sweets?

 

[2thecloudsabove]

Unheated, always.

 

[theLaw]

I am just trying to develop a strategy for eating pufa when there is no alternative. Like if I were at a gas station where my only option is peanuts or a bag of chips. Cooked vs uncooked pufa....

The other thing I have had trouble understanding is if Vitamin E is fat soluble, then would taking large doses of E a couple times a week be an effective strategy to limit PUFA damage, or is it more effective to take the Vitamin E at the same time pufa is consumed. I guess the question would be: Is the pufa a greater health offender at the gastrointestinal level, or at the cellular level, can vitamin e fat stores combat gastrointestinal (not done assimilating) pufa?

Pork rinds and Bugles are usually fried in coconut oil, then just add a red bull.

Using Vitamin E works in theory, but I have tried a wide range of doses of Tocovit, and none of them seem to have any effect on pufa to any degree that I could feel when taken orally. Vitamin E can be compromised by high-iron, so it would be different for each person.

However, saran-wrap + MCT oil seemed to lower visible fat around my abdomen in just a couple of hours.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Unheated, always.

Would you please expand why.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Using Vitamin E works in theory, but I have tried a wide range of doses of Tocovit, and none of them seem to have any effect on pufa to any degree that I could feel when taken orally. Vitamin E can be compromised by high-iron, so it would be different for each person.

Yea, I have never noticed any immediate discernable effects from Vitamin E either, but I believe it is important to supplement nonetheless. It seems to build up over weeks, mainly I notice that any brittle skin around my fingernails goes away.

 

[meatbag]

Yea, I have never noticed any immediate discernable effects from Vitamin E either, but I believe it is important to supplement nonetheless. It seems to build up over weeks, mainly I notice that any brittle skin around my fingernails goes away.

In a recent email from Peat someone posted he seemed to only recommend 50 i.u. a day (of vit e.) and it seems that although it helps with some of the side effects of PUFA it doesn't completely abolish their effects according to what I've read from RP and here on the forum (http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/vitamin-e.shtml
Ray Peat Email Advice Depository)

Also in terms of gas station food most usually have beef jerky and soda, or cheese sticks, apples, milk. There are some gas stations I've been thru on long trips in kansas and stuff that only have prepackaged snacks available and from these I would probably choose the lowest PUFA; pretzels or breakfast cereal with no oil. Protein would be lacking here though. Maybe it'd be a good idea to get a decent micellar casein powder and find a brand of OJ concentrate if you find yourself in these situations a lot so you don't have to transport large amounts of liquid etc. and then could just buy water as needed on the go

 

[Lurker]

Like if I were at a gas station where my only option is peanuts or a bag of chips.

Peanuts are usually roasted and often in something nasty like cottonseed oil so best avoided.