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PUFA Detox

Discussion in 'Polyunsaturated Fats, Seed Oils' started by Birdie, Dec 18, 2012.

  1. Birdie

    Birdie Member

    This ^^ is a quote that I wrote on an index card last March 1. I think it is a quote from one of the interviews. I didn't note which one. Sorry about that.

    Then, I wrote this which cut off at the end:
    Well, I've been thinking about pufa storage and how we get rid of them.
    Glad to find this info on one of my cards that I unpacked today. I have a lot of good stuff on cards. :)

    Does anybody know how Peat says pufas might not be released during stress? High blood levels of what would aid? Niacinamide? Vit E? Sugar? All of these and more?
     
  2. charlie

    charlie Administrator

    Great thread Birdie.
     
  3. j.

    j. Member

    I'm guessing aspirin diminishes the damage when they are released.

    Related threat at peatarian: PUFAs in The Bloodstream
     
  4. Birdie

    Birdie Member

    Thanks, j. My search didn't come up with that. Well, it was a brief search.
     
  5. Birdie

    Birdie Member

    Oh, I was thinking it was a thread by peatarian, here! Thanks again. Found it.
     
  6. Birdie

    Birdie Member

    From Rob at functionalps:


    “‎The larger the quantity of “toxic fat” stored in the body, the more careful the person must be about increasing metabolic and physical activity. Using more vitamin E, short-chain saturated fats, and other anti-lipid-peroxidation agents is important.” Ray Peat
     
  7. Birdie

    Birdie Member

    I found this via j's link to peatarian.com. Thanks again. A friend, Amy's first idea was niacinamide, and then vit E.

    Glad there is a way.
     
  8. Would CO2 have any significant protective effect?
     
  9. Birdie

    Birdie Member

    You would think so ^^ .

    Here's another quote from Rob's group of them:
     
  10. Birdie

    Birdie Member

    Another, same source:
    Niacinamide again to keep the stored PUFs from circulating so they can be detoxed by the liver. Adrenaline also is lipolytic. Thyroid hormone and eating frequently (the right foods) to keep the blood sugar level.
     
  11. Birdie

    Birdie Member

    Nasty adrenaline liberating fatty acids that we want to keep in the cells while the liver slowly detoxes. Long periods of fasting don't look helpful with pufa detox.
     
  12. charlie

    charlie Administrator

    Sometimes I wonder when I wake up in the middle of the night for a bathroom break if I should grab something real quick to top off my glycogen stores.

    Awesome thread.
     
  13. jyb

    jyb Member

    So, RP says it takes 4 years when is storage is high. But what about thin people? I'm hypo yet have always been slim, no matter how much and how bad I eat.
     
  14. kiran

    kiran Member

    That depends. Are you lean or are you skinny fat?
    You might be able to estimate body fat by using a calculator like this one:
    http://fitness.bizcalcs.com/Calculator. ... y-Fat-Navy

    I've always been skinny fat myself.
     
  15. Birdie

    Birdie Member

    Yes, a lot of people do this. And, too:
     
  16. charlie

    charlie Administrator

    Hmmm, need to figure out the optimal middle of the night snack. Definitely needs fructose in it.
     
  17. Birdie

    Birdie Member

    Good. And it doesn't have to be the best, just good enough. IMO.
     
  18. Birdie

    Birdie Member

    I figure to do it all for 2 years. Then you'd be down to half of your starting pufa. I was off grains for many years and stopped seed oils years ago, but I continued DHA in big doses.
    But I have a chronic condition that I want to improve. Makes me motivated. Fortunately, I've been on NDT for 15+ years, but still... I'm on the slim side too, but that is not no matter how much I eat. :lol:
     
  19. narouz

    narouz Member

    Birdie-
    We've discussed this before in some other thread,
    and nwo2012 provided a great, missing piece of the PUFA Purging Puzzle for me.
    I believe you noted it too at the time (so many threads here I lose track! :).

    I'll dig it up,
    but nwo2012 posted a communication from Peat
    saying that the best way and perhaps the only non-destructive way
    of getting PUFA out of the body is by a kind of natural chelation process
    which your body, when metabolizing healthily, does slowly.
    The chemical name of that chelation process is what I'll have to search for,
    but it is on here somewhere.
    This process allows the PUFA to exit harmlessly through the liver.

    I'm afraid the "slowly" part is unavoidable and may take up to 4 years,
    depending upon how fat one is and how much of that fat is PUFA.
    To mobilize the PUFA out of the stored bodily fat is possible,
    but that is not a good thing,
    because once mobilized into the bloodstream they cause destruction.

    This is one interesting feature of the Peat diet that goes against
    a lot of other dietary or health plans, including some very revered and traditional ones.
    Think of fasting or sweat lodges or saunas or sweating or intense exercise.
    Many of those activities are central to traditional healing systems.
    They are seen as cleansing and purging
    and even character and spirit building.

    But...like I said, this kind of feature would seem to be missing in PeatLand.
    If you try to "clean yourself out" by those methods,
    Peat would say that you're just destructively releasing toxic PUFA into your bloodstream
    to be circulated about and wreak havoc at many levels--cellular, glandular, hormonal, etc.

    One thing in particular about your quote above, Birdie,
    that made me think was this:
    "‎The larger the quantity of 'toxic fat' stored in the body, the more careful the person must be about increasing metabolic and physical activity."

    If you think about it, it is kinda paradoxical.
    Aren't we all trying to "increase metabolic...activity"?
    The quote would seem to imply that
    our typical Peatian efforts to crank up our metabolism
    will also incur increased dangers from PUFA...right?

    I've been aware, in a way I guess, of this principle with regard to physical exercise,
    which Peat says can cause stress.
    And I've even been sortuv aware that exercise might release PUFA.

    But I'd never thought about all the good Peatian things we do--
    the diet stuff, the red light--
    which increase metabolism...
    ...that those very things would also, conversely, risk accelerating unwanted, unhealthy PUFA release.

    Maybe I'm not thinking about this correctly.
    Or maybe I am, and that is why Peat urges the special supplements
    like aspirin, niacinamide, coconut oil--
    to help suppress the release of PUFA which is inevitable with increased metabolism...?
     
  20. narouz

    narouz Member

    Here is that cool bit supplied by nwo2012 I mentioned above:

     
  21. charlie

    charlie Administrator

  22. Birdie

    Birdie Member

    Yes, big key!!

    So, as long as we are doing the things necessary to prevent release of the PUFAs (thyroid, sugar, niacinamide, aspirin and all) we won't be oxidizing them. This is very exciting once you get into it. :)

    I'm tired from doing accounting, so I hope I'm writing with some clarity.

    Just saw yours, Charlie and will check Andrew's latest. Haven't checked over there in a while!! Thanks for link.
     
  23. Birdie

    Birdie Member

    Thanks, Charlie. It has me talking to the screen.

    A bit on starch vs fruit from the article:
     
  24. charlie

    charlie Administrator

    Hopefully talking in a good way? I have only got a chance to scan it over quickly but have not had the chance to get into it yet. My brain needs a break.

    Fruit and fructose for the win!
     
  25. Andrew Kim

    Andrew Kim Member

    Birdie, the rate at which PUFA are released from adipose tissue is now on my queue of blog posts to write. Thanks.
     
  26. charlie

    charlie Administrator

    :partydance
     
  27. gretchen

    gretchen Member

    I wonder what my health will be like after the detox is over. Aspirin & lots of coconut oil seems to help.
     
  28. jyb

    jyb Member

    So you think that even though you are thin, some PUFA are stored and it will take 2 years...is that a guess or you have evidence?
     
  29. narouz

    narouz Member

    I think I've heard speak about PUFA storage in the body in terms of "half-life."
    Being very stupid about science, I have only a dim understanding of what that means.
    I've heard it applied to radioactive isotopes,
    but that would seem like a different kind of measurement...?

    In any case, Peat, I think, has said that the half-life of PUFA stored in our bodies is about 2 years.
    So, I think that means that the full-life would be four years
    (I don't know why the half-life thing is worth bothering with :oops: ).
    4 years for most of the oil stored in your body to turn over is what I've heard,
    without the fancypants scientific half-life terminology. ;)

    And Peat has said that is variable, person-to-person,
    based upon how much fat you have stored,
    how much of that fat is PUFA,
    and how efficiently your metabolism is running
    (and thereby removing PUFA through chelation by way of the liver).
     
  30. Birdie

    Birdie Member

    Haha, Charlie... Yes, definitely in a good way. And I did some catching up on Andrew's other articles. :)
     
  31. charlie

    charlie Administrator

    Andrew is pretty darn awesome. :rockout

    Thanks Andrew for all the insight you are providing to the Ray Peat community. :clap
     
  32. Birdie

    Birdie Member

    I think that in 2 years, which is 1 year away for me, I will be at the 50% mark with pufa detox. If you get to 100% at 4 years a la Peat, then, I figure that by year 2 you'll be at 50%.

    But, it may be better than that. If you start thinner, you'll have less pufa mass. Right? So, even though you might reach 50% at 2 years, it will be 50% of a smaller number. Seems reasonable that you would be quite low pufa by the end of year 2.

    And not only does it depend on how low your pufa is at the beginning (thin people?), it depends on how good you are at the detox itself. If you keep doing things to block detox and free the pufas into the blood stream and tissues, the detox will be slower.

    Just rambling thoughts beginning with Peat's assertions that it usually takes 4 years to detox all the pufas, and that thin people have fewer pufas to start with.
     
  33. Birdie

    Birdie Member

    I'll look forward to talking to my screen on this one. We're all so interested... Thanks, Andrew.
     
  34. jyb

    jyb Member

    Andrew, did you write independently of RP articles?

    It would be interesting to know where you differ from RP. Right now I only see minor differences (you mention vegetable antioxydants. Are quercetins present in good quantities in green tea - the drink, not raw extracts? RP would probably say the advantage is mainly caffeine.)
     
  35. jyb

    jyb Member

    Actually RP writes "The “estrogenic” and “antioxidant” polyphenolic compounds of tea are not the protective agents (they raise the level of estrogen), but tea's caffeine" in raypeat.com/articles/articles/natural-estrogens.shtml

    So there seems to be a difference between Kim's article and RP on that point.
     
  36. kettlebell

    kettlebell Member

    Half life is the time required for something to fall to half its initial value.

    In relation to PUFA and what Ray seems to suggest is:

    Year 0: 100%
    Year 2: 50%
    Year 4: 25%
    Year 6: 12.5%

    That is what would be the case if the half life of stored PUFA is two years. It takes two years to be half the amount of two years previously.

    That would apply to everyone.

    Lets say one person has 10lbs PUFA stored:

    Year 0: 10lbs
    Year 2: 5lbs
    Year 4: 2.5lbs
    Year 6: 1.25lbs and so on.

    As you can see its not the half life that is the key factor, its the quantity of stored PUFA thats the key thing. Someone with a lot of stored PUFA may well have significant amounts stored 6-8 years later. I think this emphasises very well that this approach to nutrition is a long term approach, 6, 8, 10 years + for some. Every day you are getting rid of a little bit more of the toxins and healing so the focus should be on the process from day to day as looking 4+ years ahead as when you will be "Healed" could make you put your life on hold until that point.
    The more you have stored it takes all that much longer to get to the point where the amount no longer causes inflammation/suppression of the system. Thats why things like aspirin, vitamin E etc can be so important (If used correctly) potentially for many years while the body slowly gets rid of the PUFA. Those plus everything else Peat all go a long way to stopping the inflammation/suppression while you get rid of the PUFA so how long it takes becomes to an extent irrelevant as you are hindering the inflammation/suppression.

    By about 4 years, if you have been Peating strictly you will have about 25% of the PUFA you had stored 4 years previously which is a significant difference. For many this could be the threshold where the body is able to function with a good oxidative metabolism. For some it will take longer.
     
  37. charlie

    charlie Administrator

    4 years just turned into 10+ years. :cry:
     
  38. j.

    j. Member

    I don't think so. The half life I think is 400 days, not 2 years. I'm fairly confident narouz just guessed that 2 years number.
     
  39. kettlebell

    kettlebell Member

    Well its easy to do the math for any scenario.

    Day 0: 100%
    Day 400: 50%
    Day 800: 25%
    Day 1200: 12.5% and so on.
     
  40. charlie

    charlie Administrator

    http://raypeat.com/articles/nutrition/o ... text.shtml
     
  41. j.

    j. Member

    Thanks Charlie. I misremembered as well.
     
  42. charlie

    charlie Administrator

    Based on 600 days half-life:

    Day 0: 100%
    Day 600 (1.6 years): 50%
    Day 1200 (3.2 years): 25%
    Day 1800 (4.9 years): 12.5%
    Day 2400 (6.5 years): 6.25%
    Day 3000 (8.2 years): 3.12%
    Day 3600 (9.8 years): 1.56%
    Day 4200 (11.5 years): .78%
    Day 4800 (13.1 Years): .39%
    Day 5400 (14.7 years): .19%
    Day 6000 (16.4 years) .095%
    Day 6600 (18 years) .047%
    Day 7200 (19.7 years) .023%
    Day 7800 (21.37 years) .011%
    Day 8400 (23 years) .0055%
     
  43. narouz

    narouz Member

    Thanks for the "half-life" clarifications, kettlebell.
    On the aspirin and vitamin E and niacinamide:
    I do those pretty regularly,
    but I don't think I heard specific dosage recommendations from Peat.
    Have you?
    Or: what dosages of those do you use?

    j.- I think I've heard Peat speak in terms of 4 years (or 2 years half-life);
    I haven't ever seen the 400 days thing.
    It may be that the 4 years approximation is just internet parlance, simplification.
    I do think I've heard Peat use such approximate language himself, though.
     
  44. kettlebell

    kettlebell Member

    I think that in relation to Aspirin, dose will differ dramatically from person to person. I currently use 2gm per day, have the tablets disolved in warm water over 3 meals. No negative side effects. I don't even take a K supplement due to the quantity of milk I drink and cheese I eat each day, I don't think I need to.

    In the Serotonin and Endotoxin interview (Josh Rubin) Ray says Aspirin fills in for Thyroid, Pregnenolone, progesterone Vitamin E, Magnesium, potassium, sodium, CO2 (He did mention others but I cant remember them). In my mind that makes it an integral part of my strategy as it gives me a shotgun approach to fill any gaps I may have without realising it, its my safeguard. I seem to tolerate it very well so will continue with that amount for now.

    In another interview a man calls in who's friend has HIV and he asks if 15 aspirin a day is right, Rays response was "Yes, about that" as in, about that amount. Thats 4.5gm a day at least.

    Amounts vary, and its well worth finding what suits you personally. I know someone who eats peat who was doing, I believe, 6gm a day for a while whilst he was in the early stages. He must have been using vit K and with that amount it would probably be essential. I personally would never go that high unless I had cancer but with that sort of dosage you need to know exactly what you are doing (This guy is extremely switched on).

    So in summary, used correctly I believe you can safely use relatively high doses of aspirin but that dosage will vary quite dramatically from person to person. I saw Danny Roddy post on FB the other day that he does 1gm a day and if he does too much more that that he gets ringing in his ears. I believe that suggests he doesn't need more than that as any more isn't being used, and toxicity occurs. The fact that I am fine on 1.8gm a day says to me that im using all of it, so no toxicity.

    When I next get some K2 I am considering upping Aspirin to 3gm for a short time to see if I reach a limit with any symptoms of toxicity. I was using 3gm a day for a short time and had no ill effects, but it was over a short time.
    Testing to see where I find symptoms of toxicity sounds irresponsible but as long as I back off immediately I don't believe I will have any ill effects and I will know that anything below that limit is being used appropriately.

    Reading Peats articles about Aspirin, and hearing him talk about it in interviews makes me believe it is a very powerful tool in healing the metabolism and I want to use the maximum amount where it is all being put to use but no more.

    As we have seen in other threads, the use of Aspirin cannot be taken lightly but I am a big fan.

    I have heard Ray say that when your PUFA intake is very low vitamin E becomes much less important but he did say in one of his interviews that when going out, 100iu is enough to mitigate most of the damaging effects of a restaurant meal (The way he spoke made it clear he considered that a large amount). Many here use Unique-E 400iu a day, something I now consider a waste because it stays in your system for a long time remaining available for use and if you aren't using it there is no point taking that much. Im currently using 400iu twice a week but will have 400iu before going out to eat. Unique-E on the pot says you can use up to 3 a day I think, 1200iu, but they want you to come back to buy another pot of Unique-E sooner rather than later.

    I can't remember what Peat said about Niacinamide but I have heard others talk about 500-1000mg per day being ok. Considering generally the tablets are 500mg that sounds reasonable to me but don't quote me on that.
     
  45. charlie

    charlie Administrator

    Great post KB!
     
  46. narouz

    narouz Member

    Yes, great post, kettlebell!
    Thanks.

    One thing on the role of E.
    It seems you're conceiving of it mainly as blocker or mitigater
    of PUFA which is being immediately consumed.
    I think I have not been as mindful of that role
    (which it seems is real as backed up by Peat's quotes about restaurant eating)
    as I should have been.
    Instead, I was thinking of E as more of a thing
    that kept stored PUFA from being released into the bloodstream
    thence to wreak havoc....

    Do you understand E as having both of those functions?

    I guess I should add that I'm a tad wary of going too far with the
    Vitamin E as Blocker of Consumed PUFA idea.
    Maybe because it sounds too good to be true...?
    I mean, if one see it that way,
    why not have a daily PUFA binge--
    all negated by a walloping dose of Vitamin E beforehand.
    Avocadoes and Pork Butt Roast here I come!

    How do you see that wrinkle?
     
  47. jyb

    jyb Member

    @kettlebell: Those are large amount of aspirin...I thought that it wasn't practical for more than a few days as it might trigger the ringing ear thing.

    When would such doses be recommended? I'd be more motivated to test larger amounts if I know it has more than a temporary effect.
     
  48. gretchen

    gretchen Member

    I got ear ringing on 3 aspirin a day which is about 1 gram, and have very faint ringing on even actually just 1 aspirin. Aspirin seems to greatly increase my energy.

    Great info on the vitamin E. I was thinking coconut oil would be the best way to block a restaurant meal, but the E thing makes sense. Also great info about the dosage. Will have to buy some.
     
  49. kettlebell

    kettlebell Member

    Thanks Charlie and Narouz!

    Yes Vitamin E does have both functions. It acts in the intestine and at the cell. As we have all heard Peat say its not just an anti oxidant, its an Estrogen antagonist. I blocks and reverses many of the negative effects of estrogen in the body.

    I agree that you shouldn't see having a dose of vitamin E as an excuse for a PUFA binge. It does enable some of the bacteria in our gut to convert it to saturated fats before it is absorbed but not all of it will be converted if you "Binge" before the absorbtion BUT if you have absorbed some of the vitamin E into the blood stream it gives a secondary line of defence by mitigating/reversing/blocking many of the negative effects of the PUFA until it is disposed of from the body. Several lines of defense. Always best to not need to use it as a defense as inevitably some, even if its only a little damage will be done.

    Vitamin E had been found to improve fertility of both male and female animals, and to prevent intrauterine death of the embryo or fetus, so it was called the "antisterility vitamin." Using it to prevent women from having miscarriages must have occurred to many people.

    Animal research in the 1930s was also showing that estrogen had many toxic effects, including causing infertility or intrauterine death, connective tissue abnormalities, and excessive blood clotting. Dr. Shute and his sons, Wilfred and Evan, were among those who considered vitamin E to be an antiestrogen. They found that it was very effective in preventing the clotting diseases of pregnancy.

    Other researchers, who knew that progesterone protected against the toxic effects of estrogen, described vitamin E as the "progesterone-sparing agent," since so many of its antiestrogenic effects resembled those of progesterone.

    The Shute brothers began using vitamin E to treat circulatory diseases in general, rather than just in pregnant women--blood clots, phlebitis, hypertension, heart disease, and diabetes all responded well to treatment with large doses. - Ray Peat - Vitamin E: Estrogen antagonist, energy promoter, and anti-inflammatory


    Hi jyb,

    Well, no symptoms or ill effects here.

    I recommend that dose for me as the fact that I am showing no symptoms of toxicity coupled with the calming effect it has on me, the reduced inflammation and very obvious reduced stress I feel means that my body is using the whole lot of that larger dose, utilising it effectively and not just leaving it in the blood stream to build up and become toxic.
    See how Gretchen mentions that one aspirin causes toxicity symptoms. If that were me I would interpret that as "I clearly don't need it, otherwise my body would use it and I would'nt have toxicity" so I would either not use it at all or only use 25-50mg a day. If thats all your body can use so be it.

    As always its individual. If you are decreasing negative symptoms of stress, inflammation and increasing positive symptoms of calmness, higher metabolic rate, warmer hands and feet etc whilst having no reactions to the aspirin, like Bleeding, gut discomfort etc as I have seen in other threads why wouldn't you take a higher dose?

    A higher dose works for me and when I take less the benefits are lessened. Every nutrient we consume only has a temporary effect so that why I spread the dosage over the 3 main meals of the day.

    Im not recommending to others a higher dosage. It just happens a high dosage gives me clear increased benefits over a small dose of say one tablet a day. As I said earlier, my body is using it, therefore it needs it to cover something I might be missing, so I will continue with higher dosages.

    Its well worth re reading Peats article on Aspirin. I read it often. Its well worth finding the dosage that works for you, that might be only 25mg a day without toxicity but for me its quite possibly 3gm a day without toxicity.
     
  50. charlie

    charlie Administrator

    Another awesome post KB. :rockout
     
  51. PeatFeat

    PeatFeat Member

    I have read that aspirin is an inhibitor of Glucuronidation:

    http://tuberose.com/Liver_Detoxification.html (it's about halfway down)
     
  52. Wilfrid

    Wilfrid Member

    Back to the niacinamide dosage,

    I read somewhere that Ray says 100mg twice or three times a day would be ok.
     
  53. Andrew Kim

    Andrew Kim Member

  54. charlie

    charlie Administrator

    Thanks Andrew!
     
  55. jyb

    jyb Member

    Interesting comment. Anyone here can comment or explain why this is inhibition by aspirin is not a problem (I assume its not)?
     
  56. kettlebell

    kettlebell Member

    I took a look at that site and it doesn't seem to site any references. I am certain this is something Mr Peat would have addressed if there was an issue. Especially as Ray has said many times "Thyroid, Sugar, Vitamin E and Aspirin all work in the same direction" I may be wrong and if I am apologies for dismissing the information.
     
  57. gretchen

    gretchen Member

    Because it inhibits the release of PUFA which is the real cause of the liver being unable to detoxify. The article was filled with a lot of mumbo jumbo, it seems. :? Grapefruit is estrogenic irregardless of its ability to detoxify the liver, etc.
     
  58. jyb

    jyb Member

    1) Are heavy metals (iron, aluminum, nickel - contained in many foods and cooking utensils) detoxified in the same way? RP says these toxic metals can accumulate in the brain.

    I just realized that my coffee machine is in aluminum. I wish I'd read RP's article on Iron in full, as he mentioned this utensil specifically.

    2) How does tissue heal once mitochondria have been damaged (pufa or heavy metals)? Does it heal due to new cells being healthy when Peating and the old damaged ones dying?
     
  59. gretchen

    gretchen Member

    Does PUFA damage the immune system? I know it's pro-inflammatory and anti-metabolic. I'm sick again and too tired to look it up. Did releasing PUFA from fat stores lower my immunity? Or is it because of avoiding sunlight eg vit D deficiency? I'd rather not start a thread on the common cold.....
     
  60. charlie

    charlie Administrator

    Unsaturated Vegetable Oils: Toxic
    viewtopic.php?f=19&t=317&p=895&hilit=immune+system#p895
     
  61. Birdie

    Birdie Member

    Charlie, These are some really useful quotes. I'm thinking of the idea of stopping pufa in place of my old remedy, big doses of vit C. With Ray's exposing evidence of the heavy metals found in ascorbic acid, that old standby bit the dust for me.
     
  62. charlie

    charlie Administrator

    I use to go the heavy dose vitamin C route. That's a road I don't travel anymore.
     
  63. gretchen

    gretchen Member

    Reason? I took high doses of vitamin C off and on in the 2000s, seemed to have a nice effect on my skin.
     
  64. charlie

    charlie Administrator

    I bought into the vitamin c hype.
     
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