PSSD and blood volume/electrolyte balance

Astolfo

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On this thread I told I was getting improvements from 5HTP. I still do; I'm taking it once a week and after every dose I get acute worsening followed by improvement in my baseline.

Anyways, 5HT2C induces vasopressin and fluoxetine is even known for its ability to cause SIADH. I get much less urine output since I started 5HTP and I get thirsty much less frequently. Intolerance (fatigue) to animal protein can be explained by incrase in blood flow to the stomach after eating meal, more effect if it's a dense food.

I'm not sure if it's hypovolemia or hypervolemia, it could be either. My blood tests show low creatinine (every one of them), high eGFR (this too), and the last test showed high sodium and chloride. Low troponine also. It seems like all my problems are symptom of electrolyte (thus volume) imbalance in my body. Orthostatic intolerance is a sign of this and I have OS too.

Creatinine: 0.77 (0.9-1.3)
HS Troponine: <5.6 (14-43)
Chloride: 107 (98-107)
Sodium: 145 (136-145)



These two symptoms especially lead me first to thinking this

  • A bounding pulse, you feel your heart beating hard and at certain times with each pulse the blood movement actually shakes your head or upper body
  • Polyuria, i.e. increased urination, at least for many months to a year or more in the beginning of the disease

Any ideas? @redsun @yerrag
 

redsun

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On this thread I told I was getting improvements from 5HTP. I still do; I'm taking it once a week and after every dose I get acute worsening followed by improvement in my baseline.

Anyways, 5HT2C induces vasopressin and fluoxetine is even known for its ability to cause SIADH. I get much less urine output since I started 5HTP and I get thirsty much less frequently. Intolerance (fatigue) to animal protein can be explained by incrase in blood flow to the stomach after eating meal, more effect if it's a dense food.

I'm not sure if it's hypovolemia or hypervolemia, it could be either. My blood tests show low creatinine (every one of them), high eGFR (this too), and the last test showed high sodium and chloride. Low troponine also. It seems like all my problems are symptom of electrolyte (thus volume) imbalance in my body. Orthostatic intolerance is a sign of this and I have OS too.

Creatinine: 0.77 (0.9-1.3)
HS Troponine: <5.6 (14-43)
Chloride: 107 (98-107)
Sodium: 145 (136-145)



These two symptoms especially lead me first to thinking this



Any ideas? @redsun @yerrag
Low acetylcholine activity actually explains this mostly. Low Ach activity in the heart can cause a hard pulse that you can feel emanating into your head and body. This tends to be especially noticeable when laying in bed. It also increases retention of water so you don't have the urinate so often (this is especially needed during sleep so you dont wake up).

Low Ach also contributes to a dysautonomic state as Ach is important for controlling BP, hence orthostatic intolerance.

It may be a good idea to try alpha-GPC, which is a form of choline that more readily becomes acetylcholine in the body. Coupled with a B-complex, and 100IU of vitamin E daily to enhance acetylcholine synthesis. Liver should be avoided if you still consume that since preformed retinol does the opposite, it reduces Ach synthesis dose-dependently. This may be why acutely, liver helps because the high B and choline intake of liver acutely enhances Ach in the body once its absorbed in 2-4 hours. But after about 8 hours or so after you eat it the vitamin A absorbs (fats and fat solubles are absorbed much later than everything else you eat) which starts to have its effect on Ach, depleting it as it is constantly used but not synthesized as quickly with the influx of high amounts of vitamin A.

There was a study I saw in rats awhile ago showing tryptophan supplementation increased acetylcholinesterase activity. So you could feel worse at first but better afterwards perhaps due to Ach receptor upregulation. Of course this solves nothing in the end.
 

Lokzo

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So I want to add in...

I have ordered the risky 5-HTP and it is on my desk. I am going to go OFF all compounds for a good 2 weeks before using this.

When I use St john's wort it elicits the following effects:
-Much better water retention (Usually I can't retain any water well at all)
-Stronger muscles/better muscle contraction
-Anhedonia vanishes
-Normal pleasure response and sucrose preference behaviours.
-Salt tastes sweet.


The effects felt from St John's wort are IDENTICAL to a Cyproheptadine rebound. That is when I take 1mg of cyproheptadine, I feel Shi* for 3-4 days and then I get this amazing rebound effect. Which leads me to believe that perhaps its a rebound serotonergic firing effect that is eliminating the anhedonia/PSSD?

I will be trying the 5-HTP in the next few weeks.
 
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Astolfo

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@redsun I stopped eating liver long ago. I tried thiamine once again when I was drinking licorce tea but I didn't continued it because it greatly numbed my emotions and impaired my cognition (acutely of course), I guess because of dopamine blocking. I still have it as second plan in case HTP doesn't work. Thiamine helped me to permanently improve my motor abilities and cognition.

IIRC thiamine made the pulse feeling less perceivable. Tryptophan increases AChE, right, the same topic had been talked about on hackstasis I think. Might be why meat or chicken makes it worse and they also make me urinate more and I feel more much more thirsty. Theoritecally I will get less and less sensitive to meat if I eat it more so any receptor find the balance again but then why I got sensitive to it in the first place? It doesn't make sense. Also I didn't felt any worse after stopping thiamine. I felt nothing from donepezil too.
 
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Astolfo

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I started to eat mushrooms and I think they are wrecking with my body. My motor coordination seems affected negatively and it's harder to find words now(I guess?). It absolutely dulled my emotions. Probably because they inhibit aromatase and that I'm deficient in estrogen signalling. Boron slows down estrogen breakdown and it did the exact opposite, gave me deeper emotions. My E2 came high on one of the tests I done before but on the second one it was okay. I'm also sweating more.

That could mean a few different things. Estrogen enhances copper absorption and copper increases serotonin from what I remember. Paradoxical copper toxicity could explain the low ceruloplasmin, high estrogen level and low copper levels. But I don't think I have copper toxicity and I don't have kayser flesicher rings either.

Or it could mean I'm acutely getting worse since mushrooms change copper and estrogen levels in my body and I was copper deficient before (which is unlikely because even one portion of liver should have loaded me with enough copper)

or it could mean mushrooms lowers my baseline even further. I don't know which one it is.
 

redsun

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I started to eat mushrooms and I think they are wrecking with my body. My motor coordination seems affected negatively and it's harder to find words now(I guess?). It absolutely dulled my emotions. Probably because they inhibit aromatase and that I'm deficient in estrogen signalling. Boron slows down estrogen breakdown and it did the exact opposite, gave me deeper emotions. My E2 came high on one of the tests I done before but on the second one it was okay. I'm also sweating more.

That could mean a few different things. Estrogen enhances copper absorption and copper increases serotonin from what I remember. Paradoxical copper toxicity could explain the low ceruloplasmin, high estrogen level and low copper levels. But I don't think I have copper toxicity and I don't have kayser flesicher rings either.

Or it could mean I'm acutely getting worse since mushrooms change copper and estrogen levels in my body and I was copper deficient before (which is unlikely because even one portion of liver should have loaded me with enough copper)

or it could mean mushrooms lowers my baseline even further. I don't know which one it is.
See my post below about it. I experienced the same when I ate white button mushrooms for just a few days. It will lower estrogen which will have broad (mostly negative) effects on the CNS, especially in regards to emotion where it will dull emotions and contribute to anhedonia.

Glutamate and dopamine are primarily responsible for emotions and lowering estrogen too much will reduce the activity of these NTs.

Post in thread 'Crashed Estrogen With White Button Mushrooms?' Crashed Estrogen With White Button Mushrooms?
 

Nomane Euger

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See my post below about it. I experienced the same when I ate white button mushrooms for just a few days. It will lower estrogen which will have broad (mostly negative) effects on the CNS, especially in regards to emotion where it will dull emotions and contribute to anhedonia.

Glutamate and dopamine are primarily responsible for emotions and lowering estrogen too much will reduce the activity of these NTs.

Post in thread 'Crashed Estrogen With White Button Mushrooms?' Crashed Estrogen With White Button Mushrooms?
hi,from your experiences is there specific characteristics in wich dopamine and glutamate differ in what they make you feel?
 
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Astolfo

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It's indeed probably the side effect of reducing estrogen.

I cannot really say it's totally negative though. Mushrooms me feel more clear-headed and calmer actually, closer to what I used to feel when normal. They are really effective in that.

I once said beans were improving me but it turned out they actually (might also the cocoa) affects my brain in a bad way. Whenever I eat beans my brain feels like excitotoxicated really badly. I just ate small amounts of bean and I feel like I have a concussion. I also feel thirsty despite drinking water. This might be even worse than chicken because lately I was eating chicken sometimes and the side effects are not as bad as this really. Meat affects me badly, yes, but I understood it's not really that much bad compared to other food I was regularly eating.I guess beans has such effects because I might have copper imbalance thus dopamine enzymes don't work correctly and beans have L-Dopa.

@Blue Water I guess somewhat relatable. Do you think it might have to do with estrogen receptor insensitivity, since you took finasteride? Fluoxetine has anti-androgenic effects too from what I remember. Estrogen itself elevates copper absorption so insensitivity might cause deficiency. I also have strange iron values but doubt they are related because my iron is like this ever since I supplemented it in 2016 (It used to be very low together with high folate), it was before I took fluoxetine in 2018.


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Astolfo

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5-HT2C receptor agonists, but not on those of a 5-HT2A receptor agonist (Berendsen and Sroekkamp, 1994?). It has also been found that 1-HT2A and 5-HT2C receptors interact functionally with each other. A. Activation of one receptor causes an inhibition of the effect induced by the other receptor (Berendsen and Broekkamp, 1590), meaning activation of 5-HT2A receptors produces identical effects as blockade of the 5-HT2C receptors. the occurrence of hot flushes is therefore assumed to be flushing both by activation of the 5-HT2A

receptors can be caused by blocking the 5-HT2C receptors. Conversely, a reduction in hot flushes due to blockage of 5-HT2A receptors can also be caused by an activation of 5-HT2C receptors.

The reduction in estrogen concentration induced in the patients leads to an increase in 5-HT2A receptor sensitivity (upregulation) (Biegon, 1990) and thereby to a suppression of 5-HT2C receptor functions.
 
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Astolfo

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fluoxetine might have messed up with estrogen receptors through multiple mechanisms. it's an anti-androgen, SSRI (ht2a agonism) and ht2c antagonist. If estrogen upregulates HT2A and if HT2C and 2A works antagonistic, it's likely that fluoxetine desensitized estrogen.

HT2C and HT2A are the two most important receptors in anxiety and cognitive abilities.
 

Callmestar

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I'll keep a keen eye on this as my main symptom is dehydration / inability to retain fluids. I have some 5HTP, I will have a read and possibly try it.
 

InChristAlone

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It's indeed probably the side effect of reducing estrogen.

I cannot really say it's totally negative though. Mushrooms me feel more clear-headed and calmer actually, closer to what I used to feel when normal. They are really effective in that.

I once said beans were improving me but it turned out they actually (might also the cocoa) affects my brain in a bad way. Whenever I eat beans my brain feels like excitotoxicated really badly. I just ate small amounts of bean and I feel like I have a concussion. I also feel thirsty despite drinking water. This might be even worse than chicken because lately I was eating chicken sometimes and the side effects are not as bad as this really. Meat affects me badly, yes, but I understood it's not really that much bad compared to other food I was regularly eating.I guess beans has such effects because I might have copper imbalance thus dopamine enzymes don't work correctly and beans have L-Dopa.

@Blue Water I guess somewhat relatable. Do you think it might have to do with estrogen receptor insensitivity, since you took finasteride? Fluoxetine has anti-androgenic effects too from what I remember. Estrogen itself elevates copper absorption so insensitivity might cause deficiency. I also have strange iron values but doubt they are related because my iron is like this ever since I supplemented it in 2016 (It used to be very low together with high folate), it was before I took fluoxetine in 2018.


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Soluble fiber stimulate bile release.
 
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Astolfo

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I guess I have ACh excess? I had had cut out potatoes completely but 3 days ago I ate some in the evening. Instant fatigue came and I was feeling like I was in dream. Hyperventilation came instantly. Well, that night I also had dreams which is a sign of ACh as well. My bowel twitching/movement and sound problem also gets worse after potatoes but also after KCl so think it's due to renin-angiotensin-aldosterone, not ACh.

I don't know. Generally seems like I have very high ACh and it's blocking my NE too. ACh receptors being downregulated perhaps explain why I don't get dreams anymore. thanks to @redsun I didn't know solanine was an AChE inhibitor.

About 5HT2C I have just learned some pretty amazing things. Ghrelin is a hormone that's associated with pretty much all areas I have problem in. It's mainly the hunger hormone, is higher before meals and when fasting. I said that not eating anything makes me feel better. Doing fast even returnes some of my emotions and so and so.

Ghrelin binds to GHRS1a and 1b. those are literally the growth hormone secratory receptors and I'm not surprised because I literally stopped growing after 2018. I used to be the tallest guy from my age and I'm below average for my age right now. My height stayed pretty much the same and I lost muscles.

Anyway, that receptor forms dimers with 4 other receptors and one of them is 5HT2C. Fluoxetine changes 5HT2C pre-MRNA and reduces its signalling dramatically, also lters it's dimerization properties.
 
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Astolfo

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I actually feel kind of better after eating potatoes. Better cognitive performance and excitation. I start to feel like my adrenals fired up again. Tons of potassium contained in potatoes probably increase ACTH and decrease progesterone to normal levels. But I also feel worse in other way because my emotions seems blunted. The morning after I felt pretty weird though. My hands were shaking and my hunger problems also get worse on potatoes. Perhaps solanine requires time to take effect or is this actually rebound from solanine (low ACh symptoms)? There is also calcitriol in potatoes and I already have high blood calcium. Fluoxetine messes with retinol/vitamin D metabolism, perhaps potatoes pushing that imbalance further.

I don't think I will keep eating potatoes. I dont react well to other nightshade vegetables either. Pepper/capsaicin makes me feel terrible.
 

aliml

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Potatoes stimulate Cholecystokinin (CCK) release. Specifically, CCK increases CRH, ACTH, Cortisol and Prolactin. More ACTH is released in response to CCK when CRH is present. It also increases Aldosterone secretion, which will increase blood pressure and cause salt retention.
Somatostatin and Gherlin inhibits CCK release.
 

LLight

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I'm wondering if these diseases (CFS, PSSD, maybe PFS) don't stem from an inability to have normal water homeostasis.

PSSD seem to be associated with issues in oxytocin levels: emotional issues, cold hands, lowered DHT.

Normal metabolism would create metabolic water (low deuterium metabolic water, that induces the antioxidant enzymes and then allows an increase in metabolism further) and normalize water retention?

I've learned that CFS patients were likely deficient in manganese. It is involved in the mnSOD enzyme that counteract oxidative stress in the mitochondria. Products of this enzyme signal detoxification and antiaging. It's also linked to folate metabolism.

More questions than answers. It's a puzzle.
 
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Astolfo

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Have you tried water/fluid restriction?
For a day maybe. I feel better when I'm thirsty. Oxcytocine is released when you're thirsty and it happens through 5HT2C.

PSSD seem to be associated with issues in oxytocin levels: emotional issues, cold hands, lowered DHT.
There is no single disease, every ssri has different effect and every body has different homeostasis. for my case it looks like ht2c is the culprit. DHT depends on potassium and GABA. DHT wastes potassium and its metabolites are GABA agonists and estrogen agonists. fluoxetine elevates allopregnanolone, probably desentisizes GABA thus DHT turns to 3b-adiol. 5HT2C is also another agonist, it stimulates GABA interneurons. It's just a big black box it's not clear what did caused what. I would have totally cured until now if I had access to TEI/ARL but I can't order them from my country and even it's not possible for me to afford it.
 
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