Proposed Theory: Dandruff Is A Skin Biome Imbalance. Ways To Address Proposed

GorillaHead

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Today I am going to discuss my struggle with dandruff, everything I have tried, the mechanism perhaps behind one main cause and a way to address it.


Of all the ailments I have dealt with (and believe me I have dealt with so many) Dandruff was one of the most stubborn issues I seemed to suffer from.

Main Symptoms: I had two varying symptoms that came and go, sometimes when I scratched my hairline scalp I would get gunk build up like a waxy slightly textured substance, and other times I would not get this but if I ran my hands thru my hair over and over a white light LED screen I would see very very small flakes keep falling off, I could run my hands through my hair 30 times and still flakes kept coming off like a Blizzard.

All the things I tried religiously with moderate short acting success anywhere from 30 mins to 24 hours.

  • Topical Iodine, This was effective at first but its effectiveness would quickly fade and I used high doses mixed in water and washed my hair in it. (this can be dangerous btw, too much iodine is bad for the thyroid) This gave me moderate relief for 24 hours and scalp acne.
  • Head and Should Zinc Pyrthione, this was practically never effective, I mean if it was it was at best for an hour or two.
  • Topical Ketoconazole Shampoo this was moderately effective but it reduced dandruff better than iodine but it didnt last more than 12 hours
  • Sun Light was by far the most effective at eliminating dandruff but the effective was very short after 6 hours of no more sun exposure my dandruff would return.
  • High dose retinol acetate , still had flaking but the retinol removed the gunk wax like substance.
So the common belief on this forum is either you need vitamin A or you have a fungal infection on your scalp.
specifically caused by Malassezia.

One issue I had with these beliefs was it made no sense for a human to need massive doses of vitamin a unattainable through diet by any means as a solution for dandruff. My experience with vitamin A pertaining to dandruff could probably be best explained by the fact retinol dryed me out and this meant the flaking could not mix in with the wax like substance excreted through my sebaceous glands.

The other issues I had was with how the scientific community wanted to blame one fungi for dandruff when that dandruff is also on human scalps without dandruff its apart of the skin biome.

That's when it hit me. Our skin has a biome of its own and we are going about these issues all the wrong way.
I already had a good amount of knowledge on biomes and addressing them is different for everyone as the causes can vary.
(For those who dont know my first ailment ever was Ulcerative Colitis and it consumed years of my life towards research and this forum WAS a significant part of why I am today symptom free with BETTER digestion pre diagnosis and all without a single pharmaceutical or herb)

I did lots of research on seborrheic dermatitis as this was considered highly related to dandruff and people believe that dandruff many people experience is a very minor form of this condition. This led me to findings of a Japanese study that showed dandruff severity had a strong correlation with the imbalance of two skin bacteria and not dandruff at all.

So I started theorizing an idea:


Common Dandruff

Presentation: flaking, white/yellow like waxy substance build on scalp

Cause: Imbalance of skin biome caused by environmental and internal diet factors.

Cause explained: If the Japanese study holds water, which I absolutely believe it does. Then killing off the normal fungi on our scalp is probably making our dandruff even worse! Why? Malassezia specifically excretes Azelaic Acid this is quite an amazing substance used in rosacea effectively and IT is PERSONALLY very effective for acne.

This substance is very good at killing bacteria but also very good at modulating the skin biome. If Malesszia is not outputting this or its not there to output it, its likely you will have bacteria take over and as a result you end up with dandruff.

Why do anti fungal treatments sometimes help or work? Because they too have anti bacterial properties and modulate the biome.

I believe the focus on killing malassizia is actually very detrimental. You want this fungi and you want acting normally.

Treatment/Cure: 2-3 Azelaic Acid washes and increased saturated fat consumption, avoid pufa

Treatment explained: My focus is to reset the skin biome and support it, rather then destroy it. Research shows that Malassezia consumes and prefers saturated fatty acids, when consumed the fungi proliferate normally, but when it consumes PUFA it outputs inflammatory substances and can lead to hyperproliferation

Anecdotally I have read about people solving their dandruff with vitamin e and or even stopping the consumption of pufa. I did also read about one guy who tried everything and the only thing that fixed it was a specific anti biotic but once he got off it came back with a vengeance.

I theorized that perhaps when the fungi doesnt get the right food it no longer outputs azelaic acid and with shampoos these days full of PUFA and anti fungal substances this would lead to severe skin biome dysregulation. Azelaic acid keeps the biome in check.

These organisms all work together in balance to provide the optimal PH for our skin.

Today marks 5 days after I washed my hair with 10% Azelaic acid twice, my dandruff situation has never been better! When I scratch my scalp I GET ZERO buildup and when I run my hands through my hair after the 3rd or 4th time, I no longer see flakes. The amount of flakes that do fall are no where near cosmetically noticeable. I also introduced a teaspoon of coconut oil a day to feed the biome appropriately. I stopped using harsh shampoo with antibacterial and anti fungal substances and Started using organic shampoo with some coconut oil in them, not too much. I reduced how much shampoo I use, I usually slap on a huge handful.

I continue to scratch my scalp daily to see if the situation changes. I am beyond happy at this success.

THIS MAY NOT WORK FOR YOU! Science is very complex and many different causes can manifest in similar ways. I wish yall the best!

Characterization of the major bacterial-fungal populations colonizing dandruff scalps in Shanghai, China, shows microbial disequilibrium - PubMed
 

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Interesting, seems cheap also Ordinary Azelaic Acid 10% Suspension 30ml
@mrchibbs @johnwester130 FYI

It also appears to brighten skin.
 
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Quelsatron

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Joined
Jan 1, 2020
Messages
484
I just buzzed my head 3 mm and it seems to have stopped, my dad suggested it might have to do with moisture allowing for the growth of the yeast. I also started rubbing mct oil on my scalp intermittently again, but it didn't help so dramatically before so i doubt that's what's doing it. It actually seems to be restoring it whenever I try it, just because I have to wash it away before I go to bed so I don't grease up my pillows, and I think the generic dandruff shampoo I happen to have laying around irritates my scalp or something, from washing away too many natural lipids.

In my teens I had this colonial growth on my armpit hairs, like trichomycosis, which disappeared forever after I shaved my armpits just once. I'm actually surprised how quickly my dandruff has vanished now, I also tried practically everything before this. Have you tried shaving your head?
 
Joined
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Messages
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I've had 100% success by putting aloe vera in my hair and letting it sit there overnight and rinsing the next day. FWIW, it removed the dandruff and it didn't come back.
 

Kozak

Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Messages
208
Today I am going to discuss my struggle with dandruff, everything I have tried, the mechanism perhaps behind one main cause and a way to address it.


Of all the ailments I have dealt with (and believe me I have dealt with so many) Dandruff was one of the most stubborn issues I seemed to suffer from.

Main Symptoms: I had two varying symptoms that came and go, sometimes when I scratched my hairline scalp I would get gunk build up like a waxy slightly textured substance, and other times I would not get this but if I ran my hands thru my hair over and over a white light LED screen I would see very very small flakes keep falling off, I could run my hands through my hair 30 times and still flakes kept coming off like a Blizzard.

All the things I tried religiously with moderate short acting success anywhere from 30 mins to 24 hours.

  • Topical Iodine, This was effective at first but its effectiveness would quickly fade and I used high doses mixed in water and washed my hair in it. (this can be dangerous btw, too much iodine is bad for the thyroid) This gave me moderate relief for 24 hours and scalp acne.
  • Head and Should Zinc Pyrthione, this was practically never effective, I mean if it was it was at best for an hour or two.
  • Topical Ketoconazole Shampoo this was moderately effective but it reduced dandruff better than iodine but it didnt last more than 12 hours
  • Sun Light was by far the most effective at eliminating dandruff but the effective was very short after 6 hours of no more sun exposure my dandruff would return.
  • High dose retinol acetate , still had flaking but the retinol removed the gunk wax like substance.
So the common belief on this forum is either you need vitamin A or you have a fungal infection on your scalp.
specifically caused by Malassezia.

One issue I had with these beliefs was it made no sense for a human to need massive doses of vitamin a unattainable through diet by any means as a solution for dandruff. My experience with vitamin A pertaining to dandruff could probably be best explained by the fact retinol dryed me out and this meant the flaking could not mix in with the wax like substance excreted through my sebaceous glands.

The other issues I had was with how the scientific community wanted to blame one fungi for dandruff when that dandruff is also on human scalps without dandruff its apart of the skin biome.

That's when it hit me. Our skin has a biome of its own and we are going about these issues all the wrong way.
I already had a good amount of knowledge on biomes and addressing them is different for everyone as the causes can vary.
(For those who dont know my first ailment ever was Ulcerative Colitis and it consumed years of my life towards research and this forum WAS a significant part of why I am today symptom free with BETTER digestion pre diagnosis and all without a single pharmaceutical or herb)

I did lots of research on seborrheic dermatitis as this was considered highly related to dandruff and people believe that dandruff many people experience is a very minor form of this condition. This led me to findings of a Japanese study that showed dandruff severity had a strong correlation with the imbalance of two skin bacteria and not dandruff at all.

So I started theorizing an idea:


Common Dandruff

Presentation: flaking, white/yellow like waxy substance build on scalp

Cause: Imbalance of skin biome caused by environmental and internal diet factors.

Cause explained: If the Japanese study holds water, which I absolutely believe it does. Then killing off the normal fungi on our scalp is probably making our dandruff even worse! Why? Malassezia specifically excretes Azelaic Acid this is quite an amazing substance used in rosacea effectively and IT is PERSONALLY very effective for acne.

This substance is very good at killing bacteria but also very good at modulating the skin biome. If Malesszia is not outputting this or its not there to output it, its likely you will have bacteria take over and as a result you end up with dandruff.

Why do anti fungal treatments sometimes help or work? Because they too have anti bacterial properties and modulate the biome.

I believe the focus on killing malassizia is actually very detrimental. You want this fungi and you want acting normally.

Treatment/Cure: 2-3 Azelaic Acid washes and increased saturated fat consumption, avoid pufa

Treatment explained: My focus is to reset the skin biome and support it, rather then destroy it. Research shows that Malassezia consumes and prefers saturated fatty acids, when consumed the fungi proliferate normally, but when it consumes PUFA it outputs inflammatory substances and can lead to hyperproliferation

Anecdotally I have read about people solving their dandruff with vitamin e and or even stopping the consumption of pufa. I did also read about one guy who tried everything and the only thing that fixed it was a specific anti biotic but once he got off it came back with a vengeance.

I theorized that perhaps when the fungi doesnt get the right food it no longer outputs azelaic acid and with shampoos these days full of PUFA and anti fungal substances this would lead to severe skin biome dysregulation. Azelaic acid keeps the biome in check.

These organisms all work together in balance to provide the optimal PH for our skin.

Today marks 5 days after I washed my hair with 10% Azelaic acid twice, my dandruff situation has never been better! When I scratch my scalp I GET ZERO buildup and when I run my hands through my hair after the 3rd or 4th time, I no longer see flakes. The amount of flakes that do fall are no where near cosmetically noticeable. I also introduced a teaspoon of coconut oil a day to feed the biome appropriately. I stopped using harsh shampoo with antibacterial and anti fungal substances and Started using organic shampoo with some coconut oil in them, not too much. I reduced how much shampoo I use, I usually slap on a huge handful.

I continue to scratch my scalp daily to see if the situation changes. I am beyond happy at this success.

THIS MAY NOT WORK FOR YOU! Science is very complex and many different causes can manifest in similar ways. I wish yall the best!

Characterization of the major bacterial-fungal populations colonizing dandruff scalps in Shanghai, China, shows microbial disequilibrium - PubMed
Thanks for sharing. Could you please elaborate how you've fixed your Ulcerative Colitis.
 

yerrag

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https://www.researchgate.net/public..._multifocal_kidney-like_excretory_mini-organs

Besides their many other functions, hair shafts (HS) also are a repository for potentially noxious compounds. These are neutralized by their deposition within terminally differentiated, avital epithelial cells (trichocytes) that also facilitate the interaction of potential toxins with melanin, a toxin‐adsorbant biopolymer. Trichocytes are completely extruded via HS shedding during exogen, an actively controlled process. This under‐appreciated functional property of the human hair follicle (HF), makes it a bona fide excretory (mini‐) organ. Here, we ask whether the ca. 2 million HFs of the human integument operate in part as primitive, spatially dispersed kidney‐like excretory organs. Despite the many obvious differences between kidneys and HFs, this provocative hypothesis is also supported by other underappreciated renal‐follicular similarities such as anatomical parallels between Bowman’s capsule and the anagen hair bulb, and hypoxia‐dependent production of erythropoietin and extensive prostaglandin synthesis by human scalp HFs ‐ just as in the kidney epithelium. The proposed kidney‐like excretory function of HFs may have constituted a major selection advantage of mammals during evolution and could be clinically relevant. We explain how the many open questions (for example, how are molecules destined to be excreted by hair shaft entrapment recognized, taken up and deposited into hair matrix cells?) can be tested experimentally. Finally, we explore how the therapeutic targeting of kidney‐like excretory HF functions may usefully complement classical nephrological therapy (dialysis), and ask whether stimulation of intrafollicular erythropoietin synthesis might become exploitable for the benefit of patients with renal anemia.

Am I wrong to think that bald people have no dandruff? Why is that? Is it because dandruff is an excretion of waste through the hair follicles, and because bald people have no more hair follicles, no waste is being excreted, and no dandruff is coming out?

If so, is dandruff an internal pathological issue that is expressed by the hair follicles excreting waste that appears as dandruff once it accumulates on the scalp?
 
Last edited:

eeeeeeeeeeee

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I stopped having dandruff when I stopped using shampoo. I just wash thoroughly with hot water and then conditioner. My hair is somewhat dry and very curly. Has been less dry/frizzy since no shampoo as well.
 

L_C

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Messages
554
@GorillaHead

Hi, interesting info. To be honest, even after reading tons of material I am still undecided (in my situation) if I have dandruff or just dry scalp. There is supposedly a difference between the two. Dandruff symptoms are: very oily scalp, large and yellow flakes. Dry scalp: is pretty much no oily scalp at all and white, dry powdery flakes, which is what I have. I have developed this condition after moving into dry climate. Unsure, if I actually have dandruff (caused by fungi) but it's presenting itself as dry scalp because of dry climate. For me, putting oils like coconut is a big no no. The oil just sits on my scalp and suffocating my hair follicles so I end up with more hair loss. ACV rinses also do absolutely nothing. I never really tried anti dandruff shampoos because I perceive them as harsh and more like a band aid than actually solving an issue.

Do you actually have oily scalp or dry scalp?
 
OP
GorillaHead

GorillaHead

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@GorillaHead

Hi, interesting info. To be honest, even after reading tons of material I am still undecided (in my situation) if I have dandruff or just dry scalp. There is supposedly a difference between the two. Dandruff symptoms are: very oily scalp, large and yellow flakes. Dry scalp: is pretty much no oily scalp at all and white, dry powdery flakes, which is what I have. I have developed this condition after moving into dry climate. Unsure, if I actually have dandruff (caused by fungi) but it's presenting itself as dry scalp because of dry climate. For me, putting oils like coconut is a big no no. The oil just sits on my scalp and suffocating my hair follicles so I end up with more hair loss. ACV rinses also do absolutely nothing. I never really tried anti dandruff shampoos because I perceive them as harsh and more like a band aid than actually solving an issue.

Do you actually have oily scalp or dry scalp?


I dont have an oily scalp. I had exactly what u described. What solved my problem was an azelaic acid wash and then i started consuming one teaspoon of olive oil a day. Do not apply topically.


Azelaic acid is made by the fungi on ur scalp in the presence of oleic acid. If subscribe to the science here then we must not blame the fungi for the flaking.

I havent had any issues for a few weeks now
Have you tried selenium disulfide, GorillaHead?

No i havent.
 

L_C

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Messages
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@GorillaHead

Thank you for clarifying.

Where did you buy azelaic acid? What percentage did you use to prepare the wash? For how long did you keep it on your head before rinsing?

Thank you.
 
OP
GorillaHead

GorillaHead

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@GorillaHead

Thank you for clarifying.

Where did you buy azelaic acid? What percentage did you use to prepare the wash? For how long did you keep it on your head before rinsing?

Thank you.
I bought azelaic “ordinary” brand name. Its small. Its like a silicone base. 10% i beleive. And i applied on my scalp with some water and vigrously washed it into my head. And let it sit there for like 10 min. And then used an organic organic based shampoo to wash it off. I think for this to work its important to avoid shampoos thats have pufa in them. Tons of shampoos have pufa in them.
 

yashi

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Just to add an anectode, this person here tried a lot of stuff and might be making lots of assumptions and possibly wrong conclusions/reasonings, but they also mention azelaic acid as helpful.

 

SuperStressed

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I've had 100% success by putting aloe vera in my hair and letting it sit there overnight and rinsing the next day. FWIW, it removed the dandruff and it didn't come back.
eager to try this myself. what product do you use? not sure if getting pure aloe vera is possible or needed etc. thanks
 

Inaut

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eager to try this myself. what product do you use? not sure if getting pure aloe vera is possible or needed etc. thanks
I was about to mention MSM and noticed that Hamster uses Aloe vera. Apparently it is extremely high in MSM (along with other good nutrients). I think MSM is a slept on supplement for hair and overall health. I know Peat isn't a fan but I'd compare it to a shotgun when looking at all of it's effects. I rinse my hair now with MSM and some essential oils in some water. My hair isn't greasy and haven't used soap or shampoo in like a week (unusual for me)
 

Quelsatron

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Joined
Jan 1, 2020
Messages
484
I just buzzed my head 3 mm and it seems to have stopped, my dad suggested it might have to do with moisture allowing for the growth of the yeast. I also started rubbing mct oil on my scalp intermittently again, but it didn't help so dramatically before so i doubt that's what's doing it. It actually seems to be restoring it whenever I try it, just because I have to wash it away before I go to bed so I don't grease up my pillows, and I think the generic dandruff shampoo I happen to have laying around irritates my scalp or something, from washing away too many natural lipids.

In my teens I had this colonial growth on my armpit hairs, like trichomycosis, which disappeared forever after I shaved my armpits just once. I'm actually surprised how quickly my dandruff has vanished now, I also tried practically everything before this. Have you tried shaving your head?
just happened to see this thread so i might make an update

it came back with scratching and redness, then i've shaved my head again and it still persisted for 2-3 weeks. I applied MCT oil again just once and it's almost gone now. It's definitely something to do with the MCT oil, it supposedly has all the antifungal fatty acids of coconut oil but none of the nourishing ones. why it didn't work before might just be the longer hair trapping dandruff so I didn't notice that the production stopped because already present dandruff was being brushed off

anyone reading, I suggest a buzzcut and rubbing mct oil on it, would love to hear that i actually helped someone for once
 
OP
GorillaHead

GorillaHead

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I am back to report on some serious discoveries and experiences.

my azelaic acid remedy for dandruff did not last long. I had to reapply ever 24 hours and full transparency the fact Istill had flakes even tho not cosmetically noticeable was a serious issue for me.

but what also frusturated me more than anything was that my beard would flake too. These flakes were all nothing but speck dust size. I mean you could mistake it for dust if it weren't for the yellow white color.

obviously i believe this an internal issue. I tried high dose retinol acetate. I tried zinc. I tried b6. I tried pufa. I tried vitamin D.

on the topical front i tried vinegar. Iodine. Azelaic acid. Ketocanazole. Miconazole. Head and shoulders. Tea tree oil.

nothing worked. But i dont give up. No matter how long its taken me to trial all this.

on January 18 i got strep (some throat bacterial infection. Other strains are very possible besides strep). Self diagnosed.

So i popped amoxycillin for a self prescribed 7 day dose. Within 24 hours my super super severe throat started to disappear. I went from barely breathing through my mouth to almost asymptomatic.

From the 18-21st i was on antibiotics 2 times a day. My scalp seemed even worse. Way more buildup and flaking on my beard.

but on the 22nd due to a study i read Zinc Pyrithione Inhibits Yeast Growth through Copper Influx and Inactivation of Iron-Sulfur Proteins

i applied copper peptides to my scalp plus zinc pyrthione conditioner together.

let me tell you guys nothing and i mean nothing.. nothing nothing nothing has worked better than this. My scalp and beard dont flake. My hair shedding dropped off dramatically.

today marks 5-6 days off antibiotics and i can go 48 hours with no flaking or dandruff. I am too scared to go longer. But wow. Is it too soon to say this is it. Maybe. But the situation is evolving! Will update
 

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