Progesterone

[Kemby]

Thanks Peatarian,

I guess if a man takes Pregnenolone the body uses that to make DHEA and Progesterone - as much as it requires. Yes thats right, just re read it here http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/th ... ones.shtml

To reduce the chances of it being converted into estrogen I assume you just ensure you are doing all of the other peat recommended things religiously (Sugar, salt, enough protein etc) and if you are alowing your body to avoid the stress response it has no need to convert it to something you dont want or need?

Any further thoughts on this?

 

[peatarian]

Thanks Peatarian,

I guess if a man takes Pregnenolone the body uses that to make DHEA and Progesterone - as much as it requires. Yes thats right, just re read it here http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/th ... ones.shtml

To reduce the chances of it being converted into estrogen I assume you just ensure you are doing all of the other peat recommended things religiously (Sugar, salt, enough protein etc) and if you are alowing your body to avoid the stress response it has no need to convert it to something you dont want or need?

Any further thoughts on this?

You're very welcome, Kemby! One easy trick to prevent conversion to cortisol would be to use pregnenolone with a spoon full of white sugar or a piece of chocolate. I've heard from several men now that this is the way to go. Good luck!

 

[peatarian]

Sounds very very strange to me

I just picked up two packages today from usa containing pregnenolone and some spices and coconut oil. Didn't have any problem with that. I just make sure the order is under 35 euro and it's all good. The toll usually checks packages over that amount. No I don't importing medicines, but prices in the usa is alot cheaper than here in europe. Try ordering under 35euro. There are a number of good websites that sell pregnenalone and some peat friendly stuff.

I must confess I envy you. I always pay at least 30 USD for shipping only. So it's impossible to be under 22 Euro (the limit in Germany, Austria and France for toll free orders). If a company agrees to give false information on the customs form (which I hardly ever ask because I know this can cost a company everything) -- say a lower price or a lower shipping rate -- customs will check the sum online and confirm it. If they find out the company gave false information they will press charges and you will not see your shipment.

How do you manage to keep shipping cost that low? Kenogen is really very, very sweet and would do anything to help their customers but they can only ship with UPS or USPS or FedEx which will be 40 USD for 3 bottles of progest-e-complex.
Liquids never go through customs undetected.

I never order coconut fat because it's really cheap here and good quality. (250g for 50 cents)
And I don't order vitamins I could buy in my country just because they are cheaper in the USA -- the shipping cost would spoil that benefit. I only order things I would not get here and those are usually the same things which are not allowed over the counter.

 

[gummybear]

Sounds very very strange to me

I just picked up two packages today from usa containing pregnenolone and some spices and coconut oil. Didn't have any problem with that. I just make sure the order is under 35 euro and it's all good. The toll usually checks packages over that amount. No I don't importing medicines, but prices in the usa is alot cheaper than here in europe. Try ordering under 35euro. There are a number of good websites that sell pregnenalone and some peat friendly stuff.

I must confess I envy you. I always pay at least 30 USD for shipping only. So it's impossible to be under 22 Euro (the limit in Germany, Austria and France for toll free orders). If a company agrees to give false information on the customs form (which I hardly ever ask because I know this can cost a company everything) -- say a lower price or a lower shipping rate -- customs will check the sum online and confirm it. If they find out the company gave false information they will press charges and you will not see your shipment.

How do you manage to keep shipping cost that low? Kenogen is really very, very sweet and would do anything to help their customers but they can only ship with UPS or USPS or FedEx which will be 40 USD for 3 bottles of progest-e-complex.
Liquids never go through customs undetected.

I never order coconut fat because it's really cheap here and gut quality. (250g for 50 cents)
And I don't order vitamins I could buy in my country just because they are cheaper in the USA -- the shipping cost would spoil that benefit. I only order things I would not get here and those are usually the same things which are not allowed over the counter.

I usually pay 3dollars or 4 dollars in shipping depending on the company I use. Or you get the shipping free because it's part of an campaign etc. 30dollars sounds like some kind of rip-off to me.

I've never had any problem with liquids....sounds really strange to me.

 

[peatarian]

I usually pay 3dollars or 4 dollars in shipping depending on the company I use. Or you get the shipping free because it's part of an campaign etc. 30dollars sounds like some kind of rip-off to me.

I've never had any problem with liquids....sounds really strange to me.

Sorry, but this sounds very strange to me. Who ships for 3 or 4 USD and who would ship for free? That's not even possible if you buy from amazon.com and ship within the US.

http://ircalc.usps.com/?country=10137
http://www.fedex.com/us/international/s ... index.html
https://wwwapps.ups.com/ctc/request?loc ... svl=SubNav

I have relatives who live in the USA and who send me shipments. I always see what the shipping cost was on the stamps -- It's NEVER less than 25 USD.
I can only imagine that you are talking about envelopes and even this seems to be unlikely to everybody I know in Europe and the USA and in Asia. Why don't you try ordering something from amazon.com or from ebay.com and have it shipped to the EU? I guess you'd know what I mean. If you ever order progest-e-complex I'd be interested to hear about the shipping cost. I still didn't get which country you live in (reading about your shipping cost the more appropriate question might be: which world is it?)

Most forums about health and medicine and supplements offer lots of threads about customs, shipping cost and taxes to and in the EU (for instance http://peatarian.com/?qa=4237/what-bran ... 4245#c4245 -- as you can read there, to order gelatine to the EU you would have to pay 62 euro shipping plus 50 euro customs taxes.)

As you can read on this short list http://www.dhl.com/en/de/country_profil ... press.html, even non prescription drugs have to be declared to customs. So your experiences are not explainable to me.

I guess this discussion between us is of no value to other members and clearly you don't have any useful advice for me since you don't order the kind of things I am interested in. Usually my orders are about 80 to 2000 Euro worth so of course customs will be interested. I have found ways to get everything I need. It would have surprised me to hear that all the creative inventions my friends and I invested a lot of time and money in during the last years weren't necessary because all the troubles we had were imagined. Clearly that is not the case.

I wish you good luck with all your future orders!

 

[gummybear]

I usually pay 3dollars or 4 dollars in shipping depending on the company I use. Or you get the shipping free because it's part of an campaign etc. 30dollars sounds like some kind of rip-off to me.

I've never had any problem with liquids....sounds really strange to me.

Sorry, but this sounds very strange to me. Who ships for 3 or 4 USD and who would ship for free? That's not even possible if you buy from amazon.com and ship within the US.

http://ircalc.usps.com/?country=10137
http://www.fedex.com/us/international/s ... index.html
https://wwwapps.ups.com/ctc/request?loc ... svl=SubNav

I have relatives who live in the USA and who send me shipments. I always see what the shipping cost was on the stamps -- It's NEVER less than 25 USD.
I can only imagine that you are talking about envelopes and even this seems to be unlikely to everybody I know in Europe and the USA and in Asia. Why don't you try ordering something from amazon.com or from ebay.com and have it shipped to the EU? I guess you'd know what I mean. If you ever order progest-e-complex I'd be interested to hear about the shipping cost. I still didn't get which country you live in (reading about your shipping cost the more appropriate question might be: which world is it?)

Most forums about health and medicine and supplements offer lots of threads about customs, shipping cost and taxes to and in the EU (for instance http://peatarian.com/?qa=4237/what-bran ... 4245#c4245 -- as you can read there, to order gelatine to the EU you would have to pay 62 euro shipping plus 50 euro customs taxes.)

As you can read on this short list http://www.dhl.com/en/de/country_profil ... press.html, even non prescription drugs have to be declared to customs. So your experiences are not explainable to me.

I guess this discussion between us is of no value to other members and clearly you don't have any useful advice for me since you don't order the kind of things I am interested in. Usually my orders are about 80 to 2000 Euro worth so of course customs will be interested. I have found ways to get everything I need. It would have surprised me to hear that all the creative inventions my friends and I invested a lot of time and money in during the last years weren't necessary because all the troubles we had were imagined. Clearly that is not the case.

I wish you good luck with all your future orders!

Vitacost have shipping for 3dollars to EU, iherb.com has for 4 dollars over 40 euro order, I think it is 6dollars otherwise. It was not meant as an attack or insult to you peatarian, I was just shocked that's all. Shipping can be dirt cheap if you look for it. Books, tools, clothes etc etc. I can try to order some progest-e-complex if you want to and see how it goes. I've had some bad experiences from the toll from the past but that was before I knew the rules and regulations.

 

[peatarian]

You are very sweet. Unfortunately I have tried both shops and both have been seized by customs. I just checked. One shipment was supposed to go to Austria (pregnenlone for 25 USD) and one to Germany (Vitamin B for 30 USD).
Both were sent back.
But please don't let me discourage you. As long as you get what you need everything's fine.
Just be careful: If customs ever seizes a shipment with pregnenolone or other hormones, deny you ordered it or you will be fined.
All the best to you!

 

[nwo2012]

It never used to be so f***ed in the EU. When I used to order stuff from USA to UK, 10 years ago, could get absolutely anything in without any hassle. 90 day supply of all prescription meds. Its the Codex Alimentarius that is causing all the problems these days as far as I can tell.

 

[gummybear]

You are very sweet. Unfortunately I have tried both shops and both have been seized by customs. I just checked. One shipment was supposed to go to Austria (pregnenlone for 25 USD) and one to Germany (Vitamin B for 30 USD).
Both were sent back.
But please don't let me discourage you. As long as you get what you need everything's fine.
Just be careful: If customs ever seizes a shipment with pregnenolone or other hormones, deny you ordered it or you will be fined.
All the best to you!

So strange, I ordered 3 bottles of pregnenolone in the shippings, together with some honey (im not called winnie the pooh for nothing) and I get them all. Btw i've sent a pm to you.

 

[peatarian]

Just answered you ...

 

[norxgirl]

Anybody using Progest-E in the nostrils?

 

[peatarian]

Anybody using Progest-E in the nostrils?

Yes, sometimes in winter when I go skiing and I stay in a hotel at very high altitude.
It helps against the dryness.

 

[eggshellness]

Question on negative effects of progest e

I have taken progest e and it made me feel really badly. It increased pms symptoms. Not only that but my menstrual cycle is already scant and it further lightened it to almost nothing. I have asked Peat many times about progest e and I don't seem to get a clear answer about this product, more so he says that I have low thyroid or to even try pregnenolone, or use T3. I am not alone in problems with this supplement either and it seems the answers he has given the people I know who have problems with it are also vague.

I wonder if it can convert to other things or if success is dependent on liver health or some other organ/gland interplay. I tried it again the other day and one single drop made me feel very out of it. Don't know what this is from. I want to understand the mechanism. He said it could accelerate relaxation before lowering stress hormones. The one thing I hear is that it detoxes estrogen. It seems women with high estrogen have very heavy periods though and cramps. I have neither. Can progest. eincrease prolactin levels?

 

[peatarian]

Re: Question on negative effects of progest e

When you say that your menstruation has been weak already (meaning hardly any bleeding, I suppose) this is usually a sign for a strong estrogen dominance and low thyroid function. The body shuts down fertility functions to safe energy.
The menstruation starts when your progesterone level drops. (If you want to know exactly, I recommend to read Ray Peat's 'From PMS to Menopause' and everything by Katharina Dalton, starting with 'Once A Month'.) If your estrogen is high, your body will produce as much progesterone as possible to antagonize it. When it drops and estrogen is suddenly unopposed - the menstruation bleeding is heavy. If there is hardly any progesterone to oppose the estrogen to begin with - the drop is not significant and produces hardly any effects. Estrogen will stimulate building up the mucous membranes of the uterus, progesterone will maintain it and keep the tissue oxidized.
It stays very low for the first half of the cycle until your ovulation. The corpus luteum then produces progesterone. It increases your thyroid function and by that your temperature raises. (Other hormones are important in the cycle like LH, FH and GnRH but I will concentrate on estrogen and progesterone. It's actually a bit more complicated.)
If your estrogen has been unopposed for years, it takes time for the stress hormones to decrease. It's not just estrogen - cortisol is usually high, PTH, serotonin (no hormone, a neurotransmitter), prolactin (which is decreased by estrogen), melatonin, histamine. Since I don't know about your diet or your supplements, I can't tell you what you might need or what you should better not do.

But I think the problem about the progest-e-complex is your dosage.

In my experience (and that of many women I have recommended it to) it takes a high dosage at the beginning. Women who were using thyroid (NDT thiroyd) before starting progesterone had no trouble at all but felt better instantly. But I know one woman whose estrogen dominance symptoms were increase when she started progesterone. She used three drops three times a day at that time. I advised her to use more and she was fine within a few hours. This woman was older than 60 and had had a hysterectomy years ago.
But I also know a younger woman who experienced the same. Only she had been using the pill for years.

Ray Peat suggests in one of his articles to use a few drops of progest-e every 15 minutes until the symptoms disappear. So if you notice any estrogen symptoms, you can do that. Every PMS symptom is estrogen related.
In an case I would recommend to start with a third of a bottle in one day. Use it constantly every half hour. The symptoms of too much progesterone would be a feeling of lightness and euphoria. I have used a bottle a day and have never felt that.
There is only one reverse effect of progesterone I know of. If you have been low thyroid for a long time, it might activate the T4 stored in your tissue and cause a thyroid storm. You'd notice: Palpitations, sweating, feeling hot, trouble breathing. In that very rare case (I've heard of it once) you should drink L-Carnitin or Cabbage juice. Have it at home in case of emergency. But if you increase the dosage every half hour that's not going to happen. Take your temp if you don't trust your feeling.

You have to be aware that progesterone is only produced during the second half of the menstruation. So if you use it during the first half, you will most likely not have any bleeding (if you use enough).
I would suggest you don't mind about your period for the first month and try to get there during the second. Just use the progest-e from the day of your ovulation (take your temperature) for 14 days. The day you stop or the day after that you'll have your menstruation.
Yes, you should probably use thyroid (T4 and T3 combined, you'll find that information in the forum) but take your temperature in the morning for at least 5 days first. Don't forget to use salt to lower PTH and cortisol.
Of course the liver is important since it's the only organ to 'detox' the estrogen. But the less estrogen, the more progesterone, the better your liver is going to work.
A litte aspirin (500 mg a day) will help lower the estrogen.

I have never known Ray Peat to give vague answers but it's a bit hard to know exactly what's going wrong and as far as I can tell (I know about 25 women on protest-e personally and some via e-mail or through friends) there are only very few people who have trouble with it. I think he usually assumes everything else is well when he recommends the dosage for the progest-e. Unfortunately there is more and more not so well with most of us.

 

[peatarian]

Re: Question on negative effects of progest e

Have you read the 'Progesterone' thread?

 

[eggshellness]

"In my experience (and that of many women I have recommended it to)"

Are you a practitioner? I have done all of what you were mentioning. Taking more made things much worse not better. I was taking T3/T4 and doing high carb for at least 6 months before starting progest e. Talking to other practitioners some have said they simply can't use it with some of their clients, that there are problems, to focus on food instead, which is fine but I am just trying to put it all together as to the whys.

"When it drops and estrogen is suddenly unopposed - the menstruation bleeding is heavy. If there is hardly any progesterone to oppose the estrogen to begin with - the drop is not significant and produces hardly any effects."

I can be slow so forgive my confusion but when progesterone drops you get heavy bleeding? So if I had barely any progest to begin with why wouldn't my bleeding have been heavy to begin with with all the rampant estrogen in my body that was unopposed. Peat also told me that light periods were not incongruous with fertility since you mentioned saving energy. I have also read that prolactin is increased by estrogen. There can be high estrogen and high prolactin and high prolactin low estrogen. Peat also said you could lower estrogen by lowering prolactin and you can lower prolactin by lowering estrogen. So none of this is very easy to figure out. And I still don't know why the progeste e took my body in the direction of not making the situation better, not keeping things the same but actually worsening the situation. I have low thyroid so after doing all this stuff for so long my thyroid got even lower?

 

[norxgirl]

In _From PMS to Menopause_, on the very last page, Ray Peat writes that "Diosgenin, sometimes called wild yam extract, is toxic." The topical (that the &^%$ MD recommended) is "Bioidentical Progesterone (wild yam derived)". Is this the same thing as diosgenin? It is Syngenic brand.

I really could not tell that it did much of anything for me, even in larger than recommended doses. Oy vey. Just goes to show that MDs are/have been such a red herring for me. The MD even gave me a printed handout extolling the benefits of cream over oral, and quoted Dr. John Lee.

So where does the progesterone in the Progest-E come from? I did resume use of that a while back. I know it is the only kind that Peat recommends in this book from 1997. Thanks.

 

[fat4thought]

"Progesterone is the precursor (following acetate and cholesterol) for all of the other steroid hormones, so it can be used in men. It (or its precursor, pregnenolone) has been used for prostatitis, arthritis, and infertility in men. Large amounts, though, would probably suppress LH, and lower testosterone synthesis, but a smaller amount (especially in old men) seems to increase sperm count and motility. In male and female athletes who become infertile, it would seem to be the appropriate therapy, generally in combination with thyroid." RP

 

[nwo2012]

In _From PMS to Menopause_, on the very last page, Ray Peat writes that "Diosgenin, sometimes called wild yam extract, is toxic." The topical (that the &^%$ MD recommended) is "Bioidentical Progesterone (wild yam derived)". Is this the same thing as diosgenin? It is Syngenic brand.

I really could not tell that it did much of anything for me, even in larger than recommended doses. Oy vey. Just goes to show that MDs are/have been such a red herring for me. The MD even gave me a printed handout extolling the benefits of cream over oral, and quoted Dr. John Lee.

So where does the progesterone in the Progest-E come from? I did resume use of that a while back. I know it is the only kind that Peat recommends in this book from 1997. Thanks.

All natural progesterones are derived from diosgenin afaik. But the diosgenin is a phytoestrogen, hence it is toxic. It is then chnaged chemically to turn it into progesterone but Im unsure of the process. I think it is the purity of Progest-E and safe excipients that set it apart.

 

[peatarian]

"In my experience (and that of many women I have recommended it to)"

Are you a practitioner? I have done all of what you were mentioning. Taking more made things much worse not better. I was taking T3/T4 and doing high carb for at least 6 months before starting progest e. Talking to other practitioners some have said they simply can't use it with some of their clients, that there are problems, to focus on food instead, which is fine but I am just trying to put it all together as to the whys.

*** No, I am not a practitioner. I think that's pretty clear when you read my post to the end. I have been a patient for a long time. I recommended it to many women I know and most of them are using progest-e-complex now.
When you say 'talking to other practitioners' you mean doctors? You know more than one doctor who treats his patients with progest-e-complex? Of course it's smart to 'focus on food' but I have not heard of anyone who had any problems with progest-e after a large starting dosage.

"When it drops and estrogen is suddenly unopposed - the menstruation bleeding is heavy. If there is hardly any progesterone to oppose the estrogen to begin with - the drop is not significant and produces hardly any effects."

*** The total numbers of hormones in the blood or tissue are usually not the important part. It's the ratio of antagonistic hormones to each other. How significant the drop of progesterone is, depends on the amount of progesterone in relation to the estrogen in your blood or tissue. If you really want to know about the WHY - I again suggest reading Katharina Dalton and by Ray Peat 'From PMS to Menopause - female hormones in context' and 'Progesterone in Orthomolecular Medicine' - for me there were no questions open after reading these books. You will find the books by Katharina Dalton at amazon and ebay, some really cheap. Ray Peat sells his books for a few dollar on his homepage. You will find his address there or here on the forum - so you can send him money. But I guess since he e-mailed you 'many times' you've already sent some.

I can be slow so forgive my confusion but when progesterone drops you get heavy bleeding? So if I had barely any progest to begin with why wouldn't my bleeding have been heavy to begin with with all the rampant estrogen in my body that was unopposed.

*** Since there are no valuable tests there is no way of knowing whether your progesterone was low or not. The important thing is that your estrogen was obviously much higher.
I know Ray Peat doesn't approve of the receptor theory but I think regarding this one issue it might explain a lot. I have observed that after a long period of unopposed estrogen it takes a while for progesterone to have any effect. It sometimes even brings out the estrogen symptoms more strongly. Katharina Dalton believed in the receptor theory. It says that the progesterone receptors are blocked during long periods of estrogen dominance and that they cannot 'read' progesterone. Estrogen has to be lowered first. I think that's why using a big amount initially helps. I cannot tell you wether you used enough progesterone or why it didn't work for you if you did. I started with aspirin and vitamin A before using progesterone.

Peat also told me that light periods were not incongruous with fertility since you mentioned saving energy.

*** Light periods don't necessarily mean lower fertility. Light periods and many other estrogen dominance and low thyroid symptoms mean fertility problems. In men and women.
It's not true that estrogen dominant women have strong periods. It can happen but the opposite is just as common. Very high estrogen often makes the bleeding stop completely. Everybody who's been using the pill will know about that.

I have also read that prolactin is increased by estrogen.

*** Yes.

There can be high estrogen and high prolactin

*** Yes.

and high prolactin low estrogen.

*** Yes. Prolactin is not only bad, you know? Nothing in our bodies is. For a short time prolactin can give the body energy when there is not enough. There is a reason for that. For a short time it will not cause cancer or other degenerative diseases. It's the long term presence in your system which makes it harmful. Usually if there is long term high prolactin, there is also high cortisol and that means high estrogen. But this is already the pathological situation.

Peat also said you could lower estrogen by lowering prolactin and you can lower prolactin by lowering estrogen.

*** Yes. Was your prolactin measured? If it was too high you can lower it ... there is a thread about lowering serotonin. Everything in there will lower prolactin, too. Everything Ray Peat recommends lowers estrogen.

So none of this is very easy to figure out. And I still don't know why the progeste e took my body in the direction of not making the situation better, not keeping things the same but actually worsening the situation. I have low thyroid so after doing all this stuff for so long my thyroid got even lower?

*** What you have written so far doesn't give any of us a clue as to what's making you feel bad. If you are interested in our opinion, please answer these questions:
How is your thyroid? How do you know it's low? How's your temperature in the morning? Are you currently using thyroid or not? If not: Why not? How did you feel while you were using thyroid? Which one did you use? How was the T4/T3 ratio? Where you using lots of salt at the same time to lower the Parathyroid Hormone? Were you using enough sugar to lower cortisol? How much coconut oil are you using and is it the refined kind? When did you stop using PUFA? Are you using enough gelatin? Are you drinking enough milk and using eggshell powder? How old are you? What are you eating and since when? Have you had any diseases? What are your PMS symptoms? Why did you start progest-e? Have you been using the pill before? Have you been using other kinds of natural progesterone before? Are you using other supplements? Are you using any medicine? How long have you been using progest-e and how much and WHEN? By that I mean when during your cycle.

Ray Peat always recommends using thyroid if progesterone doesn't work. I didn't mention that because he writes about it in his articles.
Have you read the articles about progesteron/estrogen/thyroid? They might help to get rid of your confusion.
If you give us more information, we might be able to give you more information.