Progesterone Works Wonders But It's Causing Weight Gain?

[Makaveli]

Caller: My question is about Dr. Peat’s newsletter on “ Tissue-bound estrogen and aging”: he mentions that menopausal women often get high estrogen concentration in their tissue, as opposed to their blood. Could they get a dose of progesterone to knock it out of their tissue into their blood, and then get a phlebotomy ? Would that help to decrease systemic estrogen ?

RP: No. If the liver is working, and if you’re eating enough protein, and if your thyroid is ok, your liver will send the estrogen straight to your kidneys, to be excreted, as soon as the progesterone gets it out of your cells into the bloodstream.
And there are several enzyme systems involved in this: the progesterone basically destroys the estrogen receptor that binds estrogen. It destroys the enzyme that releases estrogen from the glucuronic form deposited in cells. It activates the enzymes that add the glucuronic acid to remove it from cells. And it shifts the oxidative enzymes, so that they destroy the active form of estrogen. So, everything progesterone does to estrogen system, gets it out of the cells, then your liver will send it to your kidneys to excrete.

HD: And progesterone helps the liver to get rid of excess estrogen as well.

RP: Yeah. Progesterone activates the thyroid to do that.

Nice... thanks @HDD

 

[Orion]

Indicating one of the main benefits of increased metabolism is to use all the fuel you eat rather than it being stored. So best case scenario you eat no more than you are able to burn. The body doesn't want to lose fat once it has it, and it will do many things to try and keep it, like subconsciously reducing your physical movements, eating more than needed etc.. With a small calorie deficit, vitamin E, Aspirin, and Coconut oil, there is nothing wrong with a little fat being pulled from your stores. Other than liposuction, there really is no other way to lose fat. The small amount of stress hormones released from a minor calorie deficit are often amplified by hypothyroidism, vitamin e deficiency, and high PUFA stores. ( " Vitamin E protects against the stored PUFA " - Ray Peat " Fat people usually have circulating free PUFA, and coconut oil can counteract their effects. " ~ Ray Peat ) Eating a diet that raises the metabolism so you can eat more and still lose weight is important, other wise some people have to cut to 1000 calories or less. People over zealous with fat loss that cut calories way too low looking for faster results. ( " If a person doesn't lose excess weight on a moderately low calorie diet with adequate protein, it's clear that the metabolic rate is low." ~ Ray Peat ) Ultimately eating a good diet low in PUFA and reducing weight slowly ( if needed ) while using things like vitamin E, aspirin, and coconut oil for a few years, or until the weight is lost, then finding how much food allows you to maintain the weight your most comfortable at is the way to do it. I'm quite surprised people still think there is a magical way to eat all you want and never gain weight, even with pro metabolic foods, there is still a point at which fat deposition occurs, without exception. For people who haven't gained excess weight, its best not to go down that road in the first place, because fat loss seems to be somewhat stressful, but like I said, after the excess weight is lost, then maintaining that new weight set point by not eating more than you personally need is not stressful. Maintenance is perfectly fine and fully compatible with health. Calorie needs are highly individual and listening to people who over simplify, and say things like " you need at least 3000 kcals to function properly.. etc.." often will lead people down the road of unwanted fat gain, if that far surpasses their individual fuel needs. Thats my personal opinion based on years of learning, observation, experimentation, and what Ray has said. Im not interested in arguing, so anyone who tries to will be left without a response.

Awesome post, thanks for sharing this. I am only at 4 months of zero fat, to deplete PUFA and seeing excellent results.

Improved; sleep, libido, skin/acne, dandruff, joints, muscle mass, fat loss, temps/pulse

I think not having large amounts of unsaturated FFA's help with thyroid and vitamin A transport( along with sugar to increase cholesterol), which help increase amounts of pregnenolone -> progesterone/DHEA, and decrease aromatization to estrogen.

 

[Emstar1892]

Hard to isolate @Emstar1892 because I also had shifted my diet and worked on healing my liver. That said, my temps have steadily increased and feel better all around. Kind of like @whodathunkit posted in the Dalton thread recently. Hope this helps!

Also things that raise metabolism increase appetite. I have found in the past with coconut oil, coffee, red light etc.. they all made me hungrier and I ate more without consciously knowing, and I gained weight. If calories are kept constant, then adding things like mentioned above and progesterone would cause weight loss.

Hey you, thanks for your feedback. That's the strange thing - I eat the same thing every day pretty much (have to pack in advance for work and it's literally identical most of the week, plus I don't think I'm going over at all on other days - if anything probably going under as I'm out a lot and forget to have dinner/lunch often). My calories are around 1900-2000. Nothing crazy. Not much fat, probably 40-50g.

My weight's been stable for months and months, only the progesterone made the change!

 

[Emstar1892]

Completely agree with @tca300. I've seen many times people recommend 3000+kcal (I think from recommendations given by youreatopia) and it never seemed justified. Weight gain occurs when the caloric intake exceeds the energy use of the body's metabolic functions, weight loss occurs inversely. It's that simple. It's not about macronutrient composition or hormones (although these may influence the metabolic rate, certainly).

Hey. I agree with you, but it's not that easy to implement on a practical level.

I've been hypothyroid for 4 years now with FT4 and FT3 both far below the reference ranges. Before I was this way, I was eating 3400 calories (and tracking carefully), exercising around 30 minutes a day, and was incredibly slim - like model skinny. Been like that since I was born.

When I became hypothyroid, and stopped eating as much (1900-2000) my weight climbed, then stabilised - i'm not overweight by any means, my BMI is 21. But it's a big difference to where I was when i was eating heaps and feeling great (BMI 18).

If I were to follow your advice and simply eat for the frame I had naturally, I'd need to be on 1500ish. That's not healthy for anyone.

To me, from life experience alone, hormones play a huge role.

 

[lollipop]

Interesting. What diet did you us e


Hey you, thanks for your feedback. That's the strange thing - I eat the same thing every day pretty much (have to pack in advance for work and it's literally identical most of the week, plus I don't think I'm going over at all on other days - if anything probably going under as I'm out a lot and forget to have dinner/lunch often). My calories are around 1900-2000. Nothing crazy. Not much fat, probably 40-50g.

My weight's been stable for months and months, only the progesterone made the change!

Will circle back around with a post about my diet. Running to work now. Very interesting about your food consistency with only change being progesterone. I would not ignore this. Might be important to watch closely. Also compare full health experience before progesterone and after. Would be interesting to see how they compare and if a bit extra weight is worth the trade off. Might be. Might not be.

 

[tca300]

@Emstar1892 Progesterone unbinds and removes estrogen from cells and if your liver cant attach glucuronic acid to it ( which is made by the liver from glucose ) so it can be excreted it might be removed from one place just to settle somewhere else. Hows your liver function? Can you go several hours without getting hypoglycemic symptoms? Cold hands, feet, nose, and impatience for example. Hypothyroidism can create liver problems, and when that happens estrogen will continue to circulate, building up over time. Kind of like if you were on the titanic while it was sinking, being stuck in a room thats slowly filling up with water ( estrogen ) you are given a bucket ( progesterone ) so as to scoop the water and throw it out of the room, except the window ( your liver ) is stuck shut so scooping and throwing the water up against the window does nothing but run down the wall back into the continuously filling room. This forum has many good threads discussing ways to improve liver function, which you might find helpful. Take care! I hope you can get it figured out!

 

[Emstar1892]

@Emstar1892 Progesterone unbinds and removes estrogen from cells and if your liver cant attach glucuronic acid to it ( which is made by the liver from glucose ) so it can be excreted it might be removed from one place just to settle somewhere else. Hows your liver function? Can you go several hours without getting hypoglycemic symptoms? Cold hands, feet, nose, and impatience for example. Hypothyroidism can create liver problems, and when that happens estrogen will continue to circulate, building up over time. Kind of like if you were on the titanic while it was sinking, being stuck in a room thats slowly filling up with water ( estrogen ) you are given a bucket ( progesterone ) so as to scoop the water and throw it out of the room, except the window ( your liver ) is stuck shut so scooping and throwing the water up against the window does nothing but run down the wall back into the continuously filling room. This forum has many good threads discussing ways to improve liver function, which you might find helpful. Take care! I hope you can get it figured out!

Thanks again for your feedback dude.

Yeah, it's absolutely created liver problems. I get hypoglycemic after about 2 hours, no matter the carb quantity (in fact, if it's loads, like a giant bowl of oats, the hypo is TERRIBLE). My ALT is raised. I get terrible hangovers from alcohol - they last about 3-4 days before I'm better. Glycogen storage awful - often wake up and need sugar/honey/fruit etc.



I've come a long way though! There was a time just over a year ago that I couldn't get out of bed. Progesterone has helped me the most here. I just don't know how to unlock the thyroid issue - tried 30mcg NDT and my body went absolutely bezerk. Didn't sleep, heart raced like crazy, felt totally spaced out and psychotic, no physical energy, tooth grinding, etc etc.

 

[Tenacity]

Hey. I agree with you, but it's not that easy to implement on a practical level.

I've been hypothyroid for 4 years now with FT4 and FT3 both far below the reference ranges. Before I was this way, I was eating 3400 calories (and tracking carefully), exercising around 30 minutes a day, and was incredibly slim - like model skinny. Been like that since I was born.

When I became hypothyroid, and stopped eating as much (1900-2000) my weight climbed, then stabilised - i'm not overweight by any means, my BMI is 21. But it's a big difference to where I was when i was eating heaps and feeling great (BMI 18).

If I were to follow your advice and simply eat for the frame I had naturally, I'd need to be on 1500ish. That's not healthy for anyone.

To me, from life experience alone, hormones play a huge role.

Admittedly there may be a point where energy intake is too low to sustain good health, but that is to me a central point of Peat's work; that higher resting metabolic rate leads to healthier and more adaptable organisms. The question for a person trying to lose weight then would be better framed in terms of 'how can I increase my resting metabolic rate?' rather than 'how many calories can I eat and still lose weight?'.

Your higher calorie consumption at a lower BMI (which has its flaws as a metric) 4 years ago would reflect a 'better' resting metabolic rate, and its decline would suggest that certain environmental factors occurred or ceased occurring to reduce that resting metabolic rate. To increase it you'd need to restore the physiological environment you were in 4 years ago, but whether or not that is possible is another issue altogether...aging certainly makes it more difficult.

'The frame (you) had naturally.' Such a concept can only exist in a certain context - right now, in this context as you are reading this, you are in the frame you have naturally.

 

[Emstar1892]

Admittedly there may be a point where energy intake is too low to sustain good health, but that is to me a central point of Peat's work; that higher resting metabolic rate leads to healthier and more adaptable organisms. The question for a person trying to lose weight then would be better framed in terms of 'how can I increase my resting metabolic rate?' rather than 'how many calories can I eat and still lose weight?'.

Your higher calorie consumption at a lower BMI (which has its flaws as a metric) 4 years ago would reflect a 'better' resting metabolic rate, and its decline would suggest that certain environmental factors occurred or ceased occurring to reduce that resting metabolic rate. To increase it you'd need to restore the physiological environment you were in 4 years ago, but whether or not that is possible is another issue altogether...aging certainly makes it more difficult.

'The frame (you) had naturally.' Such a concept can only exist in a certain context - right now, in this context as you are reading this, you are in the frame you have naturally.

Yep! Nothing in what you've said that I disagree with. My only concern was with the "nothing to do with hormones" comment.

As you've suggested, I need to increase metabolic rate and return to my previous physiological environment - calorie increases don't facilitate this. So the issue must be endocrine. Do you agree?

 

[lollipop]

@Emstar1892 Progesterone unbinds and removes estrogen from cells and if your liver cant attach glucuronic acid to it ( which is made by the liver from glucose ) so it can be excreted it might be removed from one place just to settle somewhere else. Hows your liver function? Can you go several hours without getting hypoglycemic symptoms? Cold hands, feet, nose, and impatience for example. Hypothyroidism can create liver problems, and when that happens estrogen will continue to circulate, building up over time. Kind of like if you were on the titanic while it was sinking, being stuck in a room thats slowly filling up with water ( estrogen ) you are given a bucket ( progesterone ) so as to scoop the water and throw it out of the room, except the window ( your liver ) is stuck shut so scooping and throwing the water up against the window does nothing but run down the wall back into the continuously filling room. This forum has many good threads discussing ways to improve liver function, which you might find helpful. Take care! I hope you can get it figured out!

WoW - great posts and explanations on this thread @tca300 - great thoughts to chew on. Appreciate you contributing to this thread...

 

[whodathunkit]

Awesome post, thanks for sharing this. I am only at 4 months of zero fat, to deplete PUFA and seeing excellent results.

Improved; sleep, libido, skin/acne, dandruff, joints, muscle mass, fat loss, temps/pulse

Orion, just curious...are you male or female?

Also, are you "pure Peat" or are you eating starch as well?

Same thing happens to me on very low fat, seems to be extremely beneficial (except when I eat "pure Peat" with all fruit and sugar for carbs w/no starch, then my moods get weird but still experience the other benefits) except my food cravings go through the roof in a short time. Mostly for fat. I'm wondering if there's somewhat of a sex-based reason for this. You sound like you're doing really well on it, but I can't imagine going four weeks pure no-fat--let alone four months!--without eating my own fingertips just for the fat content.

Any strategies you care to share appreciated. :)

 

[Orion]

Orion, just curious...are you male or female?

Also, are you "pure Peat" or are you eating starch as well?

Same thing happens to me on very low fat, seems to be extremely beneficial (except when I eat "pure Peat" with all fruit and sugar for carbs w/no starch, then my moods get weird but still experience the other benefits) except my food cravings go through the roof in a short time. Mostly for fat. I'm wondering if there's somewhat of a sex-based reason for this. You sound like you're doing really well on it, but I can't imagine going four weeks pure no-fat--let alone four months!--without eating my own fingertips just for the fat content.

Any strategies you care to share appreciated. :)

Hey @whodathunkit, reading some of your old posts, help me decide to do this, many thanks for sharing that info!

I am male and doing zero starch for 4 months as well. I had real acne and skin issues, so that is the motivation to stick with pure Peat, after couple rounds of accutane, and every other med, supplement, diet had done nothing for decades. After reading all ~120 of Ray's articles and listen to the 100 podcasts, the main point I saw over and over again is PUFA, removing it from diet and removing it from storage in the body is the key idea to restore metabolism, get liver working, converting T4 to T3, detox estrogen, lower serotonin, increase preg/prog/DHEA, get thyroid and vitamin A delivered properly, get mitochondrion uncoupled, sleep longer and deeper, help balance Ca/K/P/Na, reduce water retention, improved bowel movements.

My staples are; skim milk, OJ/Apple juice, white sugar, 0% farmer cheese, cooked fruits, dry fruit, gummy bears, some jams, gelatin, instant coffee, canning salt, magnesium spray, raw carrot, liver weekly.
Stopped eating muscle meat and get over 130g protein from diary and bovine gelatin.

I try to be drinking or eating every 2-3hrs to be in anabolic state when awake, keep blood sugar up and FFA's suppressed, I use 1TBsp hydrogenated coconut oil before bed to keep FFA's suppressed over night(this has done wonders for my sleep).

I think the constant eating is helping with any cravings, since I don't have any. I do have some full fat cheese or chocolate once in awhile. Plan to keep this up for one year, then maybe potatoes and some other starch. For now depleting PUFA and then a diet that doesn't allow accumulation is my top priority.

I'm never hungry and getting about ~2750cals per day.

Do you think you are getting enough cals? Do you think your weird moods are hypoglycemic reactions?

 

[whodathunkit]

@Orion, great summary! And fabulous results! Congrats! You've given me more food for thought (pun intended) for sure.

Few more questions. :)

How old are you? Or at least general demographic (young, middle aged, older, etc.). Mind saying?

Briefly, what was your diet and state of health before starting this?

Have you lost any weight? Or noticed beneficial body composition changes? Just briefly, don't have to write a novel. And please forgive if you've already discussed this...I'm kind of busy and just taking a break from other stuff for yet another "drive by" post. Don't have time to search and study right now.

0% farmer cheese,

You mean "cottage cheese"? The curd-sy stuff?

I use 1TBsp hydrogenated coconut oil before bed to keep FFA's suppressed over night(this has done wonders for my sleep).

Why hydrogenated? I know Peat's stricture against unrefined, but is there any other kind of refined coconut oil that isn't hydrogenated? Hydrogenation being linked to transfats.

Do you think you are getting enough cals? Do you think your weird moods are hypoglycemic reactions?

I think so. Come to realize that a lot of what I always just thought were hormone dips or mood swings are in the majority blood sugar issues. But not necessarily all. My metabolism and gut have been messed up for quite a long time. I'm in recovery from long-term CFS and also fixing a leaky gut. Everything has been getting incrementally better since I started truly working to rectify my health about four years ago, but I had damaged myself fairly severely for several decades (drugs, alcohol, smoking, junk food, overeating), prolly activated more than a few bad genes, so getting it all straight is going to take a bit of time. If I'd started all this in my 20's I probably would have been able to clean myself up in 6 mos. to a year. Now, though...

Interestingly, often when I initially try a beneficial intervention, it doesn't work or even backfires on me. Then I clean myself up a bit more with other stuff and circle back around, et voila! Success. So maybe it's time to give "pure Peat" another try. We'll see.

Thanks for any input!

 

[Emstar1892]

@Orion, great summary! And fabulous results! Congrats! You've given me more food for thought (pun intended) for sure.

Few more questions. :)

How old are you? Or at least general demographic (young, middle aged, older, etc.). Mind saying?

Briefly, what was your diet and state of health before starting this?

Have you lost any weight? Or noticed beneficial body composition changes? Just briefly, don't have to write a novel. And please forgive if you've already discussed this...I'm kind of busy and just taking a break from other stuff for yet another "drive by" post. Don't have time to search and study right now.


You mean "cottage cheese"? The curd-sy stuff?


Why hydrogenated? I know Peat's stricture against unrefined, but is there any other kind of refined coconut oil that isn't hydrogenated? Hydrogenation being linked to transfats.


I think so. Come to realize that a lot of what I always just thought were hormone dips or mood swings are in the majority blood sugar issues. But not necessarily all. My metabolism and gut have been messed up for quite a long time. I'm in recovery from long-term CFS and also fixing a leaky gut. Everything has been getting incrementally better since I started truly working to rectify my health about four years ago, but I had damaged myself fairly severely for several decades (drugs, alcohol, smoking, junk food, overeating), prolly activated more than a few bad genes, so getting it all straight is going to take a bit of time. If I'd started all this in my 20's I probably would have been able to clean myself up in 6 mos. to a year. Now, though...

Interestingly, often when I initially try a beneficial intervention, it doesn't work or even backfires on me. Then I clean myself up a bit more with other stuff and circle back around, et voila! Success. So maybe it's time to give "pure Peat" another try. We'll see.

Thanks for any input!

Dude! I remember you from a different blog (CFS related...yeaaaaaars ago)

So glad to hear you've made progress! What did it for you in the end? Progesterone was the only thing that worked for me but with the pesky caveats mentioned above...

 

[whodathunkit]

What did it for you in the end?

Honestly, I think what "did it for me" was simply refusing to give up. LOL And a willingness to try stuff and keep moving, to be flexible and move on and circle back if something that seemed like it didn't work for me in the beginning might actually do me good in the long run. It's been a process. No one thing. What got me started (Freddd's protocol over at Phoenix Rising) I no longer need much. I do still do folate and mB12 sometimes. Things I formerly couldn't tolerate (like progesterone, to work this tangent back around to your OP :)) are now very good friends.

Made a lot of progress, actually. Close enough to kiss normalcy as far as physical energy levels. Mental stuff like motivation and emotional resiliency coming along quite nicely, *finally*. Seems like those latter two have been lagging far behind the physical energy for a couple years, but I seem to have made a big leap forward with mental endurance in the past couple of weeks since I started eating small frequent carb-y meals. This "good spell" has gone on long enough to where I almost feel safe talking about it as if it's a fact of life now. Dare I tempt the gawds with such chutzpah?

Seriously, symptomatically dosing progesterone and carbs help a lot with that. Did you go check out the Katharina Dalton thread that @lisaferraro recommended?

 

[Emstar1892]

Caller: My question is about Dr. Peat’s newsletter on “ Tissue-bound estrogen and aging”: he mentions that menopausal women often get high estrogen concentration in their tissue, as opposed to their blood. Could they get a dose of progesterone to knock it out of their tissue into their blood, and then get a phlebotomy ? Would that help to decrease systemic estrogen ?

That was all really useful information, thank you

 

[Emstar1892]

Honestly, I think what "did it for me" was simply refusing to give up. LOL And a willingness to try stuff and keep moving, to be flexible and move on and circle back if something that seemed like it didn't work for me in the beginning might actually do me good in the long run. It's been a process. No one thing. What got me started (Freddd's protocol over at Phoenix Rising) I no longer need much. I do still do folate and mB12 sometimes. Things I formerly couldn't tolerate (like progesterone, to work this tangent back around to your OP :)) are now very good friends.

Made a lot of progress, actually. Close enough to kiss normalcy as far as physical energy levels. Mental stuff like motivation and emotional resiliency coming along quite nicely, *finally*. Seems like those latter two have been lagging far behind the physical energy for a couple years, but I seem to have made a big leap forward with mental endurance in the past couple of weeks since I started eating small frequent carb-y meals. This "good spell" has gone on long enough to where I almost feel safe talking about it as if it's a fact of life now. Dare I tempt the gawds with such chutzpah?

Seriously, symptomatically dosing progesterone and carbs help a lot with that. Did you go check out the Katharina Dalton thread that @lisaferraro recommended?

Nice! So glad you're in a better place now.

I could never do Freddd's protocol. If I take b-12 or folate it just builds up in my blood and does nothing else.

Mmmm frequent carby meals yeah i've seen that thread. It's quite hard for me to implement with the job I do but it's super helpful.

 

[beachbum]

Awesome post, thanks for sharing this. I am only at 4 months of zero fat, to deplete PUFA and seeing excellent results.

Improved; sleep, libido, skin/acne, dandruff, joints, muscle mass, fat loss, temps/pulse

I think not having large amounts of unsaturated FFA's help with thyroid and vitamin A transport( along with sugar to increase cholesterol), which help increase amounts of pregnenolone -> progesterone/DHEA, and decrease aromatization to estrogen.

Can you give details of food you eat when you lost the weight. Did you lose belly fat mostly.

 

[Orion]

Can you give details of food you eat when you lost the weight. Did you lose belly fat mostly.

Actually up ~20lbs, but losing cortisol fat stores mid section (belt sized has been decreasing). I suspect lean mass and bone mass up, and maybe organ mass?

Staples; skim milk, 0% fat cottage cheese, gelatin, white sugar, honey, jams, ripe/cooked fruits, OJ and AJ, weekly liver, gummy bears, daily raw carrot

Supplements; Tocovit, Energin, vitamin A/K, weekly aspirin, red light

 

[REOSIRENS]

Progesterone with retinol makes you lose weight