Progesterone: starting dose for resolving insomnia

[Sam321]

Never taken progesterone before. Want to try it doe major length bouts of insomnia. Anyone have any experience with good starting dosages?

 

[Blaze]

Never taken progesterone before. Want to try it doe major length bouts of insomnia. Anyone have any experience with good starting dosages?

I would start with a smaller sublingual dose, just a couple of drops to see what effect you get and then probably adjust it upward. The effect is subtle.
For the sleep effect, it must be taken orally. Topical progesterone won’t produce the allopregnenolone metabolite you need for the calming effect.

 

[Sam321]

I would start with a smaller sublingual dose, just a couple of drops to see what effect you get and then probably adjust it upward. The effect is subtle.
For the sleep effect, it must be taken orally. Topical progesterone won’t produce the allopregnenolone metabolite you need for the calming effect.

Is that a ray thing or something you've experienced? Could you elaborate a little more on why topical doesn't work? Appreciate the info.

 

[Blaze]

Is that a ray thing or something you've experienced? Could you elaborate a little more on why topical doesn't work? Appreciate the info.

Well, I don’t know if I would call it a Ray Peat thing other than the fact that he has recommended the progest-e product in the past. My advice is always my own take on things.

I remember a neat story that there was an MD who changed his whole approach to caring for his patients after sitting in on just one lecture given by Ray Peat. Serendipity , he called it. His name was Dr. John Lee and he credits Peats progesterone lecture for completely changing his outlook and went on to give lectures for years and write books on progesterone.
Dr. Lee favored topical use only as he thought oral progesterone got turned into 3 metabolites by the liver and therefore was not helpful in treating hormonal issues. Topical use is absorbed into fat tissue and supposedly does not produce those metabolites , but is stored as progesterone hormone.

It is one of those metabolites from oral use , allopregnenolone, that gives the sleep effect you seek.

Ray , to the contrary ,does not seem to think all of the sublingual dose will be converted to it’s metabolites and you will still get some progesterone even with an oral sublingual dose and as such instead of just topically it can be ok to take it sublingually.


Dr. Lee was strongly aganst larger doses. Recommended always the smaller physiological doses over the pharmacological doses. He claims to have had huge sucess in reversing bone loss regardless of age by following Ray’s advice on progesterone replacement.

 

[Razvan]

I

Never taken progesterone before. Want to try it doe major length bouts of insomnia. Anyone have any experience with good starting dosages?

I will start with a huge dosage for the first time and than slowly tapering the dosage off everyday until you will not need it anymore. Than just use it recreationally for fun in the weekends.
I will start with 40-50 mg of progesterone because I don't think a low dosage will be enough for the first time to escrite estrogen. I don't agree with peat that any dosage of progesterone will oppose estrogen. This is from my experience and don't worry you will not become a woman. I first took a low dosage like 6 mg and the first day was good but than at this dosage i would get estrogen symptoms and feeling sick(nausea,vomiting and reflux). That was fixed with a sufficient high dose and than tapering back to prevent the withdrawal effect.

 

[Sam321]

Sounds risky bruh
Thanks for the idea tho.

 

[Mossy]

@Sam321
I would be curious to know if you attempted this, and if so, what worked or didn’t work.

 

[Sam321]

@Sam321
I would be curious to know if you attempted this, and if so, what worked or didn’t work.

I've tried 15mg so far before bed and it hasn't worked for me.

Dealing with post antibiotic insomnia and possibly candida or something.

 

[Braveheart]

Ray , to the contrary ,does not seem to think all of the sublingual dose will be converted to it’s metabolites and you will still get some progesterone even with an oral sublingual dose and as such instead of just topically it can be ok to take it sublingually.

Have difficulty understanding this statement....sublingual is topical...probably the most effective form.

 

[Doc Sandoz]

First, I have extreme sensitivity to almost any-oil soluble vitamin, most hormones, niacinamide, caffeine etc. so this probably won't apply to most people: With progesterone - Haidut's Progestin - I had to dilute it 100 times with 40% ethanol/water so I could start out in doses of approx 170 mcg. If I used it straight from the bottle - even one drop (17mg) - caused long-duration unpleasant tension, like anxiety without the ideation. (This exact same reaction occurs with the other named substances as well as milk and eggs. I currently theorize it is caused by a spike in angiotensin II production as it is accompanied by an increase in my already-high BP and ACE inhibitors seem to ameliorate the reaction.) At any rate, a drop or two of the dilution applied topically every couple of hours yielded a noticeable relaxing reaction. I took 12 drops diluted - about 2mg - over the course of one afternoon and evening and it made me feel quite tired toward bedtime. As I said, extreme sensitivity is a thing for me, but I thought I'd share this in case anyone else has similar stress reactions to supps, hormones or foods.

 

[Mossy]

I've tried 15mg so far before bed and it hasn't worked for me.

Dealing with post antibiotic insomnia and possibly candida or something.

Thanks for sharing. I haven’t found the right dose myself. A topical dose of about 20mg, or an oral dose of 6-12mg will put me to sleep, but not give me a full nights rest. I wake up in the middle of the night a bit too alert and restless. Maybe it’s as simple as eating more carbs for liver stores.

 

[Beastmode]

Thanks for sharing. I haven’t found the right dose myself. A topical dose of about 20mg, or an oral dose of 6-12mg will put me to sleep, but not give me a full nights rest. I wake up in the middle of the night a bit too alert and restless. Maybe it’s as simple as eating more carbs for liver stores.

Having the progest-e with a carb seems to really help it work better for me and my wife.

 

[Sam321]

Thanks for sharing. I haven’t found the right dose myself. A topical dose of about 20mg, or an oral dose of 6-12mg will put me to sleep, but not give me a full nights rest. I wake up in the middle of the night a bit too alert and restless. Maybe it’s as simple as eating more carbs for liver stores.

Same here. It seems like it actually keeps me from sleeping. Or wakes me up. I'm also using with lunesta tho... maybe too much gaba stimulation.

 

[Mossy]

Having the progest-e with a carb seems to really help it work better for me and my wife.

Thanks for confirming the carb approach.

Same here. It seems like it actually keeps me from sleeping. Or wakes me up. I'm also using with lunesta tho... maybe too much gaba stimulation.

Maybe. Gaba, via supplementation, is a strange beast. I’ve read about, and experienced, stimulation from gaba supplementation.

 

[Blaze]

Have difficulty understanding this statement....sublingual is topical...probably the most effective form.

Not hard to understand.........Just pointing out that Dr. Lee (who was a huge fan of Ray Peat's teaching on progesterone) made a big distinction between topically applying it to the skin and sublingual. He apparently thinks the taking of this by mouth leads to digesting a lot of it converting it to metabolites and absorbing only some of it. He recommended topical cream only.

Ray, on the other hand says a sublingual is effective and avoids digestion because of the thin membranes in the mouth:

For general purposes, it is most economical and effective to take progesterone dissolved in vitamin E orally, for example taking a few drops on the lips and tongue, or rubbing it into the gums (it is good for the general health of the gums). These membranes are very thin, and the progesterone quickly enters the blood. When it is swallowed, the vitamin E allows it to be absorbed through the walls of the stomach and intestine, and it can be assimilated along with food, in the chylomicrons, permitting it to circulate in the blood to all of the organs before being processed by the liver.

 

[frannybananny]

I have used Progesterone topically at 20-25mg at night, rub into thin areas of skin and it increased my sleepiness and helped me sleep through the night. I wanted to get the "real deal" so bought some of Dr Peat's Progest-E and rubbed a couple of drops into my gums at night...pretty good night but I wanted a deeper sleep so the next night I put more than 3 drops into the palm of my hand and then rubbed that into my gums. Big Mistake. I awoke the next morning with a huge groggy hangover that I couldn't shake the whole day. So do try to use his dosage and only put a couple of drops into your hand and then rub that into your gums with fingers.

 

[Progesterone]

I have used Progesterone topically at 20-25mg at night, rub into thin areas of skin and it increased my sleepiness and helped me sleep through the night. I wanted to get the "real deal" so bought some of Dr Peat's Progest-E and rubbed a couple of drops into my gums at night...pretty good night but I wanted a deeper sleep so the next night I put more than 3 drops into the palm of my hand and then rubbed that into my gums. Big Mistake. I awoke the next morning with a huge groggy hangover that I couldn't shake the whole day. So do try to use his dosage and only put a couple of drops into your hand and then rub that into your gums with fingers.

How do you find the topical creams vs Progest-E?

topical creams good enough?

 

[danishstargazer]

me ? i would do a great spray magnesium ( i like the one from LIfe Flo ) on the soles of your feet ( 5-10 sprays ) before i would go the progesterone route . or do both but ....

 

[frannybananny]

How do you find the topical creams vs Progest-E?

topical creams good enough?

Topical progesterone creams take a little longer to work, like an hour or more and stay in your skin longer, especially slightly fatty areas. They are still quite sedating and now pump jars even measure the dose out for you. I like them alot but some of them have added rosemary for fragrance and I don't like that.