haidut

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I am posting this study as a response to the attacks I keep getting over email and PM, claiming that there absolutely no evidence for my statements that progesterone has androgenic effects (depending on the dose). As I mentioned in many other threads, progesterone is actually a true ligand for the androgen receptor and binds it as an agonist (depending on the concentration). This properly of progesterone served as the inspiration for the development of quite a few anabolic/androgenic steroids based on synthetic progestins. And as the study notes, progesterone and the synthetic (androgenic) progestins have about the same effectiveness as androgenic agents on a milligram basis.
Personally, I think progesterone is best combined with an androgen like DHT, T, androsterone, or even DHEA to balance its feminizing effects through the progesterone receptor (PR). But even when used on its own, in lower doses, progesterone can probably be a much safer alternative to HRT therapy with T in males.

https://academic.oup.com/endo/article-abstract/24/3/351/2772525?redirectedFrom=fulltext

"...That progesterone will repair as well as prevent castration changes is evident from the fact that dosages of 9.0 to 35.0 mg. daily given for 7 days to animals which had been castrated 20 days before treatment was started (litters 7 and 8, table 3), produced definite cytological evidence of secretory function in the ventral prostates. An increase in weight of the gland was also evident even with such a short period of treatment. The prostate of the animal given 35.0 mg. daily weighed 2.81 times that of the control, and the prostate of the animal given 17.5 mg. daily was 1.9 times that of the control. On the basis of the few animals used, no great difference was noted between the androgenic effects of a milligram of progesterone and its equivalent, an i.u. of progestin. For example, the average prostatic weight of the animals receiving 3.0 mg. of progesterone daily for 20 days was 69.1 mg., while that of animals receiving 3.0 i.u. of progestin for the same period was 66.0 mg."

"...Large amounts of progesterone and of progestin given to castrate male rats maintain or stimulate the prostates and, to a lesser extent, the seminal vesicles. These sexual accessories increase in weight with such treatment and display cytological evidence'of secretory function. An increase in size of the clitoris can also be obtained by administration of progesterone. From these facts, it is concluded that progesterone is androgenic."
 

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Wagner83

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Nice, I had sent you a study showing higher 5-ar activity protects against the anti androgenic effects of progesterone so that reinforces your idea of progesterone and dht being the main steroids worth optimizing in men. Still I have seen a few men have negative effects from very low doses of progesterone when taken a few days in a row (tubzy is one), the initial effects were good.
 

Dhair

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Nice, I had sent you a study showing higher 5-ar activity protects against the anti androgenic effects of progesterone so that reinforces your idea of progesterone and dht being the main steroids worth optimizing in men. Still I have seen a few men have negative effects from very low doses of progesterone when taken a few days in a row (tubzy is one), the initial effects were good.
TubZy said that he did not notice anti-androgenic effects from high doses of progesterone after he added DHEA. And either him or one of the other PFS guys said that they found low dose progesterone and DHEA to be as effective or more effective than 5a-DHP. I think 5a-DHP completely releases the brakes on allopreg, which is why I had such a hard time with it. It's really not possible to balance it out. I have had a really interesting experience with low dose progesterone and DHEA + a strong androgen. I just made a thread about it. I also suffer from low T, and I do not notice anti-androgenic effects (so far).
 

Ritchie

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Interesting results, but how relevant is a study of castrated rodents in a clinical setting (where they are most likely deprived of many other hormonal influencing factors) in relation to healthy humans living freely?
From my own personal experience, very low dose progesterone (1-3mg) here and there combined with dhea and a little androsterone can have positive androgenic effects, however to much and to consistently can have the opposite effect.
 

Wagner83

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TubZy said that he did not notice anti-androgenic effects from high doses of progesterone after he added DHEA. And either him or one of the other PFS guys said that they found low dose progesterone and DHEA to be as effective or more effective than 5a-DHP. I think 5a-DHP completely releases the brakes on allopreg, which is why I had such a hard time with it. It's really not possible to balance it out. I have had a really interesting experience with low dose progesterone and DHEA + a strong androgen. I just made a thread about it. I also suffer from low T, and I do not notice anti-androgenic effects (so far).
Here are Tubzy's posts on it, you can see that the "reversal " of anti androgenic effects from progesterone with dhea was not convincing at all, especially considering the second post was made later after a more extensive experience:

20mg is a lot man for a male (I would be a walking zombie at that dose). Anything over 5mg of progesterone for me without DHEA makes my **** completely numb, but DHEA dosed in the range of 5-15mg daily fixes any anti androgenic effects from progesterone for me and I wouldn't say just fix it puts me over baseline too for sure. I would switch back to 5mg of progesterone only first and see how you feel for a free days, if it still bothers you add in the DHEA at the same time of it.

The first few days of lower dose progesterone I felt androgentic then towards the 3rd or 4th day I started to get water retention, flat muscle, no libido etc. However, when I found I added 5mg of DHEA in it reversed the anti androgen sides to an extent. By I never did well on DHEA so I stopped the combo eventually. Never tried progesterone with DHT though

For the record here was haidut's reply:
If his progesterone was already optimal or high then it would not do much good to add more. This stack is for people who want to stop excessive tissue catabolism, and he may not be one of those people. Judging from this posts his is already muscular/athletic. I did not suggest everybody bathe in progesterone/DHEA. Just wanted to show that progesterone is GR antagonist and can be anti-catabolic for the people that need it. Not all people will need it.
___________________________________
Interesting results, but how relevant is a study of castrated rodents in a clinical setting (where they are most likely deprived of many other hormonal influencing factors) in relation to healthy humans living freely?
From my own personal experience, very low dose progesterone (1-3mg) here and there combined with dhea and a little androsterone can have positive androgenic effects, however to much and to consistently can have the opposite effect.
Good point. Did you try small amounts of dhea or pregnenolone with androsterone only?
 
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Ritchie

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Good point. Did you try small amounts of dhea or pregnenolone with androsterone only?
Yeah and that combo seems to be beneficial: slightly androgenic, slightly energising and calming, but only in small doses (less than 5mg each).
 

Ritchie

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Ok. What did progesterone add to your experience?
Like a bit of extra warmth, slight increase in general strength and clarity that seems to come with heightened androgens, accompanied by calm energy.. However, we are talking 2 to 3 milligrams so very small dose and only once here and there, like I said, if it is too consistent or too much it seems to build up and have detrimental effects on libido, even when combined with dhea/andro.
 

Bodhi

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Haidut :

Wouldn't 4 drops Pansterone plus 3 drops (a day)Progestene be perfect for a man?
 

Wagner83

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Here was the study on 5ar protecting against the anti androgenic effects of progesterone
Possible mechanisms of androgen resistance in 5 alpha-reductase deficiency: implications for the physiological roles of 5 alpha-reductases. - PubMed - NCBI
It is suggested that one function of the high levels of 5 alpha-reductase in human embryonic external genitalia and urogenital sinus may be to prevent the antagonism of androgen binding to its receptor by progesterone. In support of this concept it has been found that the concentrations of progesterone required to inhibit testosterone or DHT binding to androgen receptors are lower in 5 alpha-reductase deficient fibroblasts than in control cells with high 5 alpha-reductase activity. Studies of the specificity of the 5 alpha-reductase activity in human prostate microsomes have shown that conversion of testosterone into DHT (Km = 12 nmol/l) was competitively inhibited by crotonyl CoA (Ki = 125 mumol/l), a model substrate for enoyl CoA reductase of the microsomal fatty acid elongase system. It is speculated that 5 alpha-reduction of testosterone and reduction of enoyl CoA could be properties of a single enzyme.
 

milk_lover

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I love the effect of progesterone much more than pregnenolone. Progesterone and DHEA are really great things for a man.
 

haidut

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Haidut :

Wouldn't 4 drops Pansterone plus 3 drops (a day)Progestene be perfect for a man?

I would not call it perfect but close to optimal. For people in very catabolic state I would probably try higher dose progesterone + a stronger androgen like androsterone. Progesterone + DHT or T would also work if you can get prescription for those androgens.
 

Mary Pruter

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I am posting this study as a response to the attacks I keep getting over email and PM, claiming that there absolutely no evidence for my statements that progesterone has androgenic effects (depending on the dose). As I mentioned in many other threads, progesterone is actually a true ligand for the androgen receptor and binds it as an agonist (depending on the concentration). This properly of progesterone served as the inspiration for the development of quite a few anabolic/androgenic steroids based on synthetic progestins. And as the study notes, progesterone and the synthetic (androgenic) progestins have about the same effectiveness as androgenic agents on a milligram basis.
Personally, I think progesterone is best combined with an androgen like DHT, T, androsterone, or even DHEA to balance its feminizing effects through the progesterone receptor (PR). But even when used on its own, in lower doses, progesterone can probably be a much safer alternative to HRT therapy with T in males.

PROGESTERONE IS ANDROGENIC | Endocrinology | Oxford Academic

"...That progesterone will repair as well as prevent castration changes is evident from the fact that dosages of 9.0 to 35.0 mg. daily given for 7 days to animals which had been castrated 20 days before treatment was started (litters 7 and 8, table 3), produced definite cytological evidence of secretory function in the ventral prostates. An increase in weight of the gland was also evident even with such a short period of treatment. The prostate of the animal given 35.0 mg. daily weighed 2.81 times that of the control, and the prostate of the animal given 17.5 mg. daily was 1.9 times that of the control. On the basis of the few animals used, no great difference was noted between the androgenic effects of a milligram of progesterone and its equivalent, an i.u. of progestin. For example, the average prostatic weight of the animals receiving 3.0 mg. of progesterone daily for 20 days was 69.1 mg., while that of animals receiving 3.0 i.u. of progestin for the same period was 66.0 mg."

"...Large amounts of progesterone and of progestin given to castrate male rats maintain or stimulate the prostates and, to a lesser extent, the seminal vesicles. These sexual accessories increase in weight with such treatment and display cytological evidence'of secretory function. An increase in size of the clitoris can also be obtained by administration of progesterone. From these facts, it is concluded that progesterone is androgenic."
God bless you. You don' deserve that.
 

GAF

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The severity and sophistication of attacks is a confirmation of the correctness of the underlying thesis.
 

Owen B

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Count me as one with tissue depletion/muscle wasting issues. That's why I got interested in all the pregnenolone/progesterone/DHEA protocols. I especially remember Haidut's posts on the anti-cortisol mechanisms of preg and prog.

The only prog I've been using up to now is the Progest-E. It was one of the first things I started doing when I started Peat. I put 2-3 mgs on my gums about 3-4 times a week. It does make me a little drowsy and that was the reason I stayed away from it. (Even though I think putting it on my gums this way may be one reason why I've had no gum or cavity issues for two years).

But now I've decided to use the Progestene I have and try an experiment with it. I've been using 10-15 mgs over the day and so far have experienced no drowsiness. In fact, I feel very good; clear-headed. It may be that it will build up in my system and I'll start getting blitzed and if so I'd have to start thinking about balancing it off.

Pregnenolone is out though. I can't be in the same room with it. I just get progressively possessed by it; unbalanced and paranoid.

I tried a prog/DHEA (2:1) stack but I get too jumpy.

I may have to try some Androsterone at some point.

But so far this 10 -15 mgs prog is very good. I was pleasantly shocked.

(BTW, the only caveat I have to observe with prog is not taking it before noon. If I do, it's zombie-land. After noon, no problems).
 

haidut

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not taking it before noon. If I do, it's zombie-land. After noon, no problems

I think the issue is lowering cortisol too much which is needed for morning wakefulness. After a few hours of wakefulness, cortisol can be abated without causing drowsiness if used in physiological doses. Drowsiness can still occur in higher doses but if done afternoon it feels more like drunkenness and less like sleepiness.
 

Owen B

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I think the issue is lowering cortisol too much which is needed for morning wakefulness. After a few hours of wakefulness, cortisol can be abated without causing drowsiness if used in physiological doses. Drowsiness can still occur in higher doses but if done afternoon it feels more like drunkenness and less like sleepiness.
That's pretty interesting. I never thought of the cortisol connection. I thought it might have been a natural cycling issue. BTW, I see you use the term "physiological dose" a lot. What does that mean?
 

haidut

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That's pretty interesting. I never thought of the cortisol connection. I thought it might have been a natural cycling issue. BTW, I see you use the term "physiological dose" a lot. What does that mean?

I would say 10mg-15mg daily is physiological dose. But it has to be split into several lower doses. A single dose of 10mg-15mg is not physiological.
 
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