Progesterone Fears

ampersand

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Hi, I'm getting really nervous about bio-identical progesterone. I've been using it for several years, and increasingly am getting headaches and sharp breast pains. I started out with fairly high doses and continued with high doses, but it was never enough to stop my cycle.

Reading this website terrifies me: Gaia Research - Cancer Hazard Of Dermal Natural Progesterone

The reason I was looking for a natural progesterone breast cancer link is because I recently met a pregnant woman who was just diagnosed with breast cancer near the end of her pregnancy.
 
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ampersand

ampersand

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The reason I was trying to stop my cycle was to cure endometriosis.

Also, sorry this post is of such poor quality. I have the flu and can barely think, and these breast pains are freaking me out.
 
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johnwester130

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it can synergise well with b6, glycine and maybe DHEA and vitamin D

What else do you take
 

Blossom

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When I've had breast issues since discovering Peat thyroid has been what has resolved it for me. If it makes you feel any better most breast cancer does not cause pain. I have an email response from Ray in the email depository regarding what I thought was mastitis but turned out to be a fibroadenoma. It shrunk to nothing within a month by following his suggestions which were basically vitamin D (if needed based on labs) and thyroid. I'll try to find the email and link it here.
I believe thyroid helps the body clear excess estrogen.
ETA: I just reread his response and I was wrong on the vitamin D! It was B6.
 
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Blossom

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My question to Ray was regarding rapid onset of mastitis in a middle-aged, non-lactating woman with a history of prolactinoma. The substances used for relief were aspirin, bromocriptine and topical lidocaine gel.

Ray's response:

Aspirin, lidocaine, and bromocriptine are all likely to help, but low thyroid is usually behind an excess of prolactin; in middle age, estrogen tends to rise as progesterone falls. A good T3 supplement is usually the quickest way to correct breast inflammation and pain. Have you checked your temperature and pulse rate? A sluggish intestine interferes with the excretion of estrogen, so raw carrots or a laxative can often, in just a day or two, increase the ratio of progesterone to estrogen. Extra salt in your food, and a little vitamin B6 could help to lower the prolactin. Low thyroid increases water retention but causes sodium loss, and that combination increases swelling and inflammation; the diuretic effect of tea or coffee might help with the swelling.
 

Blossom

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I asked Ray Peat about why it might be that I notice breast pain from taking bioidentical progesterone like Progest-e and this was his response:

"Have you had a blood test for vitamin D and TSH? High estrogen increases the conversion of progesterone to the 5- metabolite, but thyroid and progesterone lower estrogen, preventing the exaggeration of that pathway. A vitamin D deficiency disturbs many hormones, and can cause breast pain."
Here are the studies he attached:
Endocrinology. 2003 Dec;144(12):5650-7.
Distinct molecular pathways mediate progesterone-induced growth inhibition and
focal adhesion.
Lin VC(1), Woon CT, Aw SE, Guo C.
(1)Department of Clinical Research, Singapore General Hospital, School of
Biological Sciences, School, Singapore 637616. [email protected].
We have reported previously that reactivation of progesterone receptor (PR)
expression in estrogen receptor (ER)- and PR-negative MDA-MB-231 breast cancer
cells enabled progesterone to inhibit cell growth and invasiveness, and to induce
remarkable focal adhesions. The present study addressed molecular mechanisms that
mediate these anticancer effects of progesterone in the PR-transfected breast
cancer cells ABC28. In response to progesterone treatment are the marked
up-regulation of cyclin-dependent kinase inhibitor protein p21WAF1/CIP1 and
decreased expression of cyclin A, cyclin B1, and cyclin D1 that are required for
G1 progression and during cell mitosis. Progesterone also induced down-regulation
of phosphorylated MAPK (p42/44 MAPK). Furthermore, this study also demonstrated
that MEK inhibitor PD98059 that inhibits the phosphorylation of p42/44 MAPK also
caused reduction of cyclin D1 level and inhibition of cell proliferation. These
results suggest that inhibition of p42/44 MAPK pathway is part of the mechanisms
mediating progesterone's growth-inhibitory effect. On the other hand,
progesterone-induced focal adhesion is mediated by separate pathway. Whereas
PD98059 exhibited no effects on cell adhesion, inhibitory antibody to
beta1-integrin was able to reverse progesterone-induced focal adhesion and
progesterone-induced increase in the phosphorylation of focal adhesion kinase. On
the other hand, beta1-integrin antibody had no effect on progesterone-mediated
growth inhibition and on progesterone-mediated expression of cyclins p21CIP1/WAF1
and phosphorylation of P42/P44 MAPK. In the context of complex functions of
progesterone in breast cancer and reproductive organs, identification of distinct
pathways offers new strategies for designing therapeutic agents to target the
specific pathway so as to minimize the side effects.

J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2005 Nov;97(3):278-88.
Membrane 5alpha-pregnane-3,20-dione (5alphaP) receptors in MCF-7 and MCF-10A
breast cancer cells are up-regulated by estradiol and 5alphaP and down-regulated
by the progesterone metabolites, 3alpha-dihydroprogesterone and
20alpha-dihydroprogesterone, with associated changes in cell proliferation and
detachment.
Pawlak KJ(1), Zhang G, Wiebe JP.
(1)Hormonal Regulatory Mechanisms Laboratory, Department of Biology, University
of Western Ontario, London, Canada.
Previous studies have shown that the progesterone metabolite,
5alpha-pregnane-3,20-dione (5alphaP), exhibits mitogenic and metastatic activity
in breast cell lines and that specific, high affinity receptors for 5alphaP are
located in the plasma membrane fractions of tumorigenic (ER/PR-positive) MCF-7
cells. The aim of this study was to determine the effects of the mitogenic
(estradiol; 5alphaP) and anti-mitogenic (3alpha-hydroxy-4-pregnen-20-one,
3alphaHP; 20alpha-hydroxy-4-pregnen-3-one, 20alphaHP) endogenous steroid hormones
on 5alphaP receptor (5alphaP-R) numbers and on cell proliferation and adhesion of
MCF-7 and MCF-10A cells. Exposure of MCF-7 cells for 24h to estradiol or 5alphaP
resulted in significant (p < 0.05-0.001) dose-dependent increases in 5alphaP-R
levels. Conversely, treatment with 3alphaHP or 20alphaHP resulted in significant
(p < 0.05-0.01) dose-dependent decreases in 5alphaP-R levels. Treatment with one
mitogenic and one anti-mitogenic hormone resulted in inhibition of the
mitogen-induced increases, whereas treatment with two mitogenic or two
anti-mitogenic hormones resulted in additive effects on 5alphaP-R numbers.
Treatments with cycloheximide and actinomycin D indicate that changes in
5alphaP-R levels depend upon transcription and translation. The non-tumorigenic
breast cell line, MCF-10A, was also shown to posses specific, high affinity
plasma membrane receptors for 5alphaP that were up-regulated by estradiol and
5alphaP and down-regulated by 3alphaHP. Estradiol binding was demonstrated in
MCF-10A cell membrane fractions and may explain the estradiol action in these
cells that lack intracellular ER. In both MCF-7 and MCF-10A cells, the increases
in 5alphaP-R due to estradiol or 5alphaP, and decreases due to 3alphaHP or
20alphaHP correlate with respective increases and decreases in cell proliferation
as well as detachment. These results show distribution of 5alphaP-R in several
cell types and they provide further evidence of the significance of progesterone
metabolites and their novel membrane-associated receptors in breast cancer
stimulation and control. The findings that 3alphaHP and 20alphaHP down-regulate
5alphaP-R and suppress mitogenic and metastatic activity
suggest that these
endogenous anti-mitogenic progesterone metabolites deserve considerations in
designing new breast cancer therapeutic agents.

Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 2000 Jun 16;272(3):731-7.
Plasma membrane receptors for the cancer-regulating progesterone metabolites,
5alpha-pregnane-3,20-dione and 3alpha-hydroxy-4-pregnen-20-one in MCF-7 breast
cancer cells.
Weiler PJ(1), Wiebe JP.
(1)Hormonal Regulatory Mechanisms Laboratory, University of Western Ontario,
London, Canada.
Recent observations indicate that the progesterone metabolite,
5alpha-pregnane-3,20-dione (5alphaP), which is produced at higher levels in
tumorous breast tissue, promotes cell proliferation and detachment, whereas
3alpha-hydroxy-4-pregnen-20-one (3alphaHP), which is produced at higher levels in
nontumorous breast tissue, suppresses proliferation and detachment of MCF-7

breast cancer cells. The objective of the current study was to determine the
presence and characteristics of binding sites for these endogenous putative
cancer-regulating steroid hormones. Radiolabeled 5alphaP and 3alphaHP were used
in radioligand binding assays on MCF-7 cell (membrane, cytosolic, and nuclear)
fractions. Binding of [(3)H]5alphaP and [(3)H]3alphaHP was observed only in the
plasma membrane fraction, whereas estradiol binding sites were confirmed in the
cytosolic and nuclear fractions. The respective membrane binding sites exhibited
specificity for the 5alphaP and 3alphaHP ligands with no appreciable displacement
at 200- to 500-fold excess by other steroids. The association rate constants were
calculated as 0. 107/min and 0.0089/min and the dissociation rate constants were
0. 049 9 and 0.011 for 5alphaP and 3alphaHP, respectively. Saturation analyses
indicated single classes of molecules with dissociation constants of 4.5 and 4.87
nM and receptor densities of 486 and 629 fmol/mg protein, respectively, for
5alphaP and 3alphaHP. Exposure of MCF-7 cells to estradiol for 1, 24, 48, and 72
h resulted in 2.3, 4. 2-, 2.99-, and 1.7-fold increases, respectively, in 5alphaP
receptor density. 3alphaHP resulted in partial suppression of the
estradiol-mediated increase in 5alphaP receptor density. This is the first report
of receptors for the progesterone metabolites, 5alphaP and 3alphaHP, of their
occurrence in breast cancer cell membranes, and of the induction of 5alphaP
receptors by estradiol.
The results provide further support for the potential
importance of progesterone metabolites in breast cancer.
Copyright 2000 Academic Press.

Breast Cancer Res. 2013 May 11;15(3):R38.
Progesterone metabolites regulate induction, growth, and suppression of estrogen-
and progesterone receptor-negative human breast cell tumors.
Wiebe JP(1), Zhang G(2,)(3), Welch I(4), Cadieux-Pitre HA(5).
(1)Department of Biology, The University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario,
N6A5B7, Canada. [email protected] (2)Department of Biology, The University of Western
Ontario, London, Ontario, N6A5B7, Canada. [email protected].
(3)Department of Anatomy & Cell Biology, Schulich School of Medicine & Dentistry,
The University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario, N6A 5C1, Canada.
[email protected]. (4)Department of Animal Care & Veterinary Services
and Department of Physiology and Pharmacology, Medical Sciences Building, The
University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario, N6A 5C1, Canada. [email protected].
(5)Department of Animal Care & Veterinary Services, Medical Sciences Building,
The University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario, N6A 5C1, Canada.
[email protected].
INTRODUCTION: Of the nearly 1.4 million new cases of breast cancer diagnosed each
year, a large proportion is characterized as hormone receptor negative, lacking
estrogen receptors (ER) and/or progesterone receptors (PR). Patients with
receptor-negative tumors do not respond to current steroid hormone-based
therapies and generally have significantly higher risk of recurrence and
mortality compared with patients with tumors that are ER- and/or PR-positive.
Previous in vitro studies had shown that the progesterone metabolites,
5α-dihydroprogesterone (5αP) and 3α-dihydroprogesterone (3αHP), respectively,
exhibit procancer and anticancer effects
on receptor-negative human breast cell
lines. Here in vivo studies were conducted to investigate the ability of 5αP and
3αHP to control initiation, growth, and regression of ER/PR-negative human breast
cell tumors.
METHODS: ER/PR-negative human breast cells (MDA-MB-231) were implanted into
mammary fat pads of immunosuppressed mice, and the effects of 5αP and 3αHP
treatments on tumor initiation, growth, suppression/regression, and
histopathology were assessed in five separate experiments. Specific
radioimmunoassays and gas chromatography-mass spectrometry were used to measure
5αP, 3αHP, and progesterone in mouse serum and tumors.
RESULTS: Onset and growth of ER/PR-negative human breast cell tumors were
significantly stimulated by 5αP and inhibited by 3αHP. When both hormones were
applied simultaneously, the stimulatory effects of 5αP were abrogated by the
inhibitory effects of 3αHP and vice versa. Treatment with 3αHP subsequent to
5αP-induced tumor initiation resulted in suppression of further tumorigenesis and
regression of existing tumors.
The levels of 5αP in tumors, regardless of
treatment, were about 10-fold higher than the levels of 3αHP, and the 5αP:3αHP
ratios were about fivefold higher than in serum, indicating significant changes
in endogenous synthesis of these hormones in tumorous breast tissues.
CONCLUSIONS: The studies showed that estrogen/progesterone-insensitive breast
tumors are sensitive to, and controlled by, the progesterone metabolites 5αP and
3αHP. Tumorigenesis of ER/PR-negative breast cells is significantly enhanced by
5αP and suppressed by 3αHP, the outcome depending on the relative concentrations
of these two hormones in the microenvironment in the breast regions. The findings
show that the production of 5αP greatly exceeds that of 3αHP in ER/PR-negative
tumors and that treatment with 3αHP can effectively block tumorigenesis and cause
existing tumors to regress. The results provide the first hormonal theory to
explain tumorigenesis of ER/PR-negative breast tissues and support the hypothesis
that a high 3αHP-to-5αP concentration ratio in the microenvironment may foster
normalcy in noncancerous breast regions. The findings suggest new diagnostics
based on the relative levels of these hormones and new approaches to prevention
and treatment of breast cancers based on regulating the levels and action
mechanisms of anti- and pro-cancer progesterone metabolites.
 

Blossom

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The above is why I was thinking vitamin D in my earlier post but it was from a different email. It may be more applicable to your situation since progesterone is discussed.
 
D

danishispsychic

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have you tried getting your hormones tested? just so see where they are ? also, the only way progesterone works for me if when i take pregnenolone with it . if cortisol is high- it will steal preg and then the rest of your hormones are all out of whack. that is what happened to me. i cant take just progest e without the preg. also make sure your coffee is organic-
 
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ampersand

ampersand

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Thank you everyone. I supplement with pansterone, progest-e, progestene, energin, estroban, aspirin, magnesium, and have recently added mitolipin, fibrin, zinc and copper. I occasionally try some cyproheptadine, NDT and t3. My diet is low in pufas but I suspect I'm not getting enough calories, due to low appetite. My temps however are very good, pulse usually around 70-80, but blood pressure runs low despite eating salt to taste (I like a lot of salt). I have a lot of fatigue, and very high cholesterol, which I'm not particularly concerned about.

I went back and looked at my original posts here, over two years ago, and I had forgotten that I got shooting breast pains when I first started progesterone. I recently upped my dosage this cycle, starting on day 1, so maybe the change of dosage combined with non physiological use has something to do with this. Or the fact that I've been sick the last few days and have hardly eaten anything other than highly sweetened herbal teas.

Since I made my original post today I've been reading other stuff on the forum here for the last few hours and that has calmed my fears, and yes, it does help to know that pain is usually not a sign of cancer.

I actually haven't used energin in the last few days so I'll go do that now.
 
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danishispsychic

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i still think you could try preg. because it converts to all the other hormones. just saying . its cheap and on amazon.
 
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ampersand

ampersand

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I will try a little extra stressnon and pansterone this week.

And honestly, thank you so much for your quick responses. I don't post here often but I have been reading this forum often weekly or even daily for the past 3 years.
 

Nicole W.

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Hi, I'm getting really nervous about bio-identical progesterone. I've been using it for several years, and increasingly am getting headaches and sharp breast pains. I started out with fairly high doses and continued with high doses, but it was never enough to stop my cycle.

Reading this website terrifies me: Gaia Research - Cancer Hazard Of Dermal Natural Progesterone

The reason I was looking for a natural progesterone breast cancer link is because I recently met a pregnant woman who was just diagnosed with breast cancer near the end of her pregnancy.
I’m
 

Nicole W.

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http://www.natural-progesterone-advisory-network.com/natural-progesterone-cancer-in-a-cream/
Have you seen this article? This is a response to the article you posted claiming natural progesterone is carcinogenic. This author claims that Gaia Research authors are just shills for a major HRT manufacturer in Australia. After the WHI study decimated 50% of their market, the manufacturer embarked on a campaign to demonize natural progesterone in an effort to eliminate the competition. Pretty appalling if it’s true.
 

Xisca

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Even if not carcinogenic, this is not true that you can take progesterone in all cases. That it is high during pregnancie is not a proof at all. You could say that logically many other things change during pregnancie anyway, not only prog!

My hot flushes stopped by stopping prog, after 2 years of prog with no success. What is important to precise is context, and I am one that does not keep water at all,, so I guess I am not estrogen dominant at all.

Taking a lot of things is not without hazard if you do not check context. Why don't you do hair test for testing minerals? I also messed up with copper and zinc! I seem to have high copper symptoms, but I guessed bad, and blood test tell you NOTHING. My hair test gives a reverse result than blood ttest for zinc and copper! The ratios are opposite! Blood will give you what stays in the blood, and hair test will give you your exact tissue content! And this ratio of copper and zinc will tell you more about prog and estr levels you have.

Then I have learned that when dealing with copper, and thus estrogens, you have to care about potassium levels, and the hair test will give this too. Mine were too low.
 
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ampersand

ampersand

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http://www.natural-progesterone-advisory-network.com/natural-progesterone-cancer-in-a-cream/
Have you seen this article? This is a response to the article you posted claiming natural progesterone is carcinogenic. This author claims that Gaia Research authors are just shills for a major HRT manufacturer in Australia. After the WHI study decimated 50% of their market, the manufacturer embarked on a campaign to demonize natural progesterone in an effort to eliminate the competition. Pretty appalling if it’s true.

Oh good find Nicole, thank you! I implemented everyone's suggestions above, especially adding Stressnon (pregnenelone) more consistently and the breast pains have not been back.

Does anyone have any Peatish ideas about supposed progesterone allergy?
 

ddjd

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Thank you everyone. I supplement with pansterone, progest-e, progestene, energin, estroban, aspirin, magnesium, and have recently added mitolipin, fibrin, zinc and copper. I occasionally try some cyproheptadine, NDT and t3. My diet is low in pufas but I suspect I'm not getting enough calories, due to low appetite. My temps however are very good, pulse usually around 70-80, but blood pressure runs low despite eating salt to taste (I like a lot of salt). I have a lot of fatigue, and very high cholesterol, which I'm not particularly concerned about.

I went back and looked at my original posts here, over two years ago, and I had forgotten that I got shooting breast pains when I first started progesterone. I recently upped my dosage this cycle, starting on day 1, so maybe the change of dosage combined with non physiological use has something to do with this. Or the fact that I've been sick the last few days and have hardly eaten anything other than highly sweetened herbal teas.

Since I made my original post today I've been reading other stuff on the forum here for the last few hours and that has calmed my fears, and yes, it does help to know that pain is usually not a sign of cancer.

I actually haven't used energin in the last few days so I'll go do that now.
What copper are you using
 
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ampersand

ampersand

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I don't take it every day, just once in a while when I take 22 mg zinc I also take 2 mg Swanson brand copper. Not a particularly good brand but we already had it in the house and the pills are really small and I don't take it too often so I'm not too worried about the fillers.
 

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