Progesterone And Pregnenolone - One Example Of Protocol

[gilson dantas]

On your guy´s opinion what would be the problem [if it is a problem] with the following scheme [it is a logical protocol] to combat degenerative diseases in a person with hypothyroidism, estrogen dominance, more than 60 years and that is trying to follow R Peat guidelines on nutrition?
The scheme: one grain of thyroid [NDT] twice a day with the intention of going optimizing thyroid while using 200 mg VO pregnenolone [StressNon] once a week. And progesterone [Progestrene] 40 mg divided into four taken by day for 10 days [alternating rectal application and testicular bag].
Which kind of contradiction exists in this protocol? [for the purpose that it is intended]
I thank in advance if someone talk about it. And yes I received the products above last week.

And to make clear my goal: I just plan to rebalance the steroid hormones [and thyroid] that I think that are the most sensitive area of prostate problems, I mean, strogenic dominance problems.

 

[DaveFoster]

Get labs; full thyroid panel, estrogen, prolactin, and cortisol. You might also want to get your vitamin D levels checked.

I think you should start off gradually with thyroid, adding 1/4 grain every two weeks from a good quality thyroid source.

Better yet would be synthetic T3 and T4; if your goal is recovery these are necessary.

You should take DHEA.

You should eat very low-fat/high-carb with 100-150 grams/protein.

Serotonin antagonists may be beneficial in your case; cyproheptadine is one option, ritanserin another. You could also try a dopaminergic drug; the safest are lisuride and hydergine. Bromocriptine is less safe. Lastly, you can try an aromatase inhibitor; exemestane is probably the safest.

Coffee intake would help you; at your age you should take at least 80 mg aspirin/day.

Vitamin E is an estrogen antagonist; use K2 with vitamin E.

 

[gilson dantas]

OK DaveFoster. Very good.
I get labs always. Many things.
Prolactin is 11 [high]; TSH= 0,1, T3=146 and T4= 5,9; the good result on TSH has to do with the use of NDT [2 grains by day];
estrone 67 [normal here 10-60]
And yes: diet is 100-120 g protein [mainly: cheese], carbs (too much OJ all over the day), butter and coconut oil]
Yes: coffee intake is a very good thing in my case. And aspirine I used for weeks [100 mg/day] and now I took a break;
About DHEA: my DHEA is very low, actually. But dont´you think it is best to use pregnenolone initially? I don´t know: perhaps it is less toxic than DHEA and is a good precursor of DHEA and others. In this case [use of pregnenolone] what about that dose [200mg once by week]?

[Observation: I had a crisis of tetany those days; perhaps low calcium? But how if I use cheese every day? Do you have any idea about tetany?]
Reading your post I think I must to reduce NDT [perhaps one grain by week?] ; do you agree with me?
Aromatase inhibitor perhaps not now [risks of dizzines, stomach pain, hair loss and pressure over renal function];
Very good ideas about vitamin E and K2 [I will use it]
Let´s keep talking my friend!
[Curiosity for you, there are two things I cant overcome: homocysteine 13 and cupper very low, always]

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

I think you should reduce the amount of thyroid and work up to a grain a day. I used to cut the pills with a razor and take tiny little bits. Taking too much can often have the opposite result of what you are expecting.

If you are trying to do away with estrogen dominance I would suggest low amounts of DHEA (2 to 5 mg).

DHEA at a low level has the same effect as DHT. DHT is the masculinizing hormone and is a potent anti-estrogen.

DHEA at a high level gets converted into estrogen. Also I remember haidut or someone else saying that topical application gets converted into androgens more selectively than oral.

I would also suggest you take zinc. It is a potent aromatase inhibitor as well and necessary for androgen production. take it with a good source of magnesium that way you absorb and use it well.

Most people are deficient in magnesium so I would wager you need to up that as well.

 

[gilson dantas]

Yes pimpnamedraypeat, you have reason: I will reduce the NDT, Imean the t3 dose [after that tetany]; I suppose I was very strong in the dose and there was some deficiency, for example magnesium, perhaps not enough protein in the diet; I do not know well which nutrient was insufficient;
I started using now, this week, one grain [9 mcg T3] every 3 days;
and I am increasing magnesium supplementation [transdermal and also magnesium-glycine one hour before to take T3; and magnesium chloride 2 times a day]

Yes: I want to win the estrogenic dominance; that´s my real issue [avoiding unsaturated and preventing blood sugar spikes because of cortisol etc.]
Yes: I´m using shrimp twice by week to get zinc, selenium, copper. [Istop to use 50 mg zinc acetate because I have a low copper]
You suggest DHEA, but I think pregnenolone helps produce DHEA and have less indesirable effects.
I'm using pregnenolone [StressNon] 20 mg per day and also progesterone 20 mg per day [Progestene]; 1 - what do you think of this protocol?
2 - What do you think if I increase the dose of progesterone to 40 mg per day?

 

[DaveFoster]

@gilson dantas Use the reply feature, or precede my name with an @ symbol to notify my alerts so I can reply to your posts.

I'm not entirely familiar with elevated homocysteine, although I believe this indicates a methylation issue. If you want to lower estrogen, why do you not just take larger amounts of vitamin E? It inhibits aromatase, as does aspirin.

 

[gilson dantas]

@DaveFoster

Yes; thanks my friend!
Homocisteyne: I am trying to change the protein profile of my diet [less metionine, cisteyne, triptofane] and I hope to lower homocysteine.
Vitamine E against aromatase is a good idea. But here on Brazil I do not find a good one. So, by the moment, I´m using aspirine; what do you think of 100 mg by day [and vitamin K 100 2/2days.]? I use B3 and B6. And what do you thing if I use 40 mg of progesterone for a period of 10 days?

 

[DaveFoster]

@DaveFoster

Yes; thanks my friend!
Homocisteyne: I am trying to change the protein profile of my diet [less metionine, cisteyne, triptofane] and I hope to lower homocysteine.
Vitamine E against aromatase is a good idea. But here on Brazil I do not find a good one. So, by the moment, I´m using aspirine; what do you think of 100 mg by day [and vitamin K 100 2/2days.]? I use B3 and B6. And what do you thing if I use 40 mg of progesterone for a period of 10 days?

Those sound like safe options. I'm not sure about your vitamin K intake; do you mean 100 mg vitamin K2 every 2 days? If so, that's a lot.

I think 100 mg aspirin will get you moderate effects, and will be safe for your gut.

 

[gilson dantas]

@DaveFoster,
About vitamin K intake: I mean 100 mcg every 2 days [as protection for 100 mg of aspirin I use every day];
to protect my gut I dissolve aspirin on water and take it before to sleep, with a cup of orange juice, sugar and salt [and a small piece of cheese];

One question: I learned from R Peat that cortisol and progesterone are antagonists;
but reading today I saw the following quotation of R Peat: "Progesterone and cortisol protect against shock and stress partly by maintaining the resistance and integrity of the capillaries, preventing leakage of blood materials into the tissues". ["Bledding, clotting and cancer"]. How can I undestand that? Isn´t cortisol a stress hormone? And progesterone a protective one?

 

[tara]

I started using now, this week, one grain [9 mcg T3] every 3 days;

I guess you are splitting this into multiple doses?

and I am increasing magnesium supplementation [transdermal and also magnesium-glycine one hour before to take T3; and magnesium chloride 2 times a day]

Trying more Mg in whatever forms work for you looks like a good idea to me.

Just looked up tetany, seems that possible dietary contributors can be low calcium or high phosphate: calcium ratio, excess potassium, low Mg, low CO2.
If you have addressed the minerals, considering breathing may be worthwhile too. Relaxed, nasal, diaphragmatic? At night too?

My understanding is that you do need some cortisol for optimal health; the problem with it is if it is chronically elevated.

I think the optimal dosage of progesterone seems to be very variable. Peat talked about a man he know who took "enough progesterone to neuter most [men/people?]", and him not having any negative effects. I thing you have to watch yourself for positive and negative effects. Your proposed dosage, given that it is probably potentiated significantly by the DMSO, seems fairly high for an average man, but that doesn't say whether it is too much or not for you personally in your particular current state. I've not used progestene personally, only progest-e (and I'm female, so effects would be a bit different for me anyway).

I think Peat has suggested prolactin for men would ideally be under 7. It seems to me that 11 may be a little high, but not extreme.

Trying reducing thyroid supp slightly might make sense. If it were me, I'd reduce it with similar caution to increasing it - reduce daily dose by 1/4 grain, reassess after at least 2 weeks (I imagine endogenous production would pick up by then if it is going to) and consider reducing a further 1/4 grain, etc. To let the body's endogenous production come back up if it was suppressed. Monitor body temps and heart rate to assess effects.

 

[gilson dantas]

I really appreciate your intervention, @tara ;
1 - Yes, my goal is to strength the supply of magnesium [oral and transdermal I use every day, epsom salt bath feet too]
2 - I make daily use of cheese [is more than half of my daily 120 g of protein] then in that case, I think the calcium-phosphate ratio should be improving;
3 - Very well: I will use the co2 bag every day [about 5 times a day] to help improve co2;
4 - My goal in this fight [my particular war] is to lower prolactin, reduce the growth of prostate, bring down homocysteine, raise copper and DHEA, but above all, the strategic objective is temperature and heart rate;
They are very low; NEVER the temperature goes beyond 36 degrees C; and the pulse does not go beyond the 72; ie, in addition to estrogenic dominance I have a chronic hypothyroidism, hard to crack;
5 - Today use 1 grain of NDT every 3 days; but I´am thinking now, that a better plan, considering my degree of hypothyroidism, can be 1/4 of grain every day; or it would be better 1 grain every 3 days? What would be the better physiological form?
6 - The big question: if we raise [a man] the dose of progesterone for 30 or 40 mg per day, which undesirable effects should I expect? In libido? Bleeding? Irritability? what is the probable negative effects menu to a higher dose of progesterone? [Of course I know it depends on the person, yes; but what is the general menu?]
hug!![Gracias!] I really appreciate any feedback from your fellow companions and peatians!

 

[tara]

5 - Today use 1 grain of NDT every 3 days; but I´am thinking now, that a better plan, considering my degree of hypothyroidism, can be 1/4 of grain every day; or it would be better 1 grain every 3 days? What would be the better physiological form?

Because the T3 component has quite a short half life (hours) compared to T4 (days), I think it makes sense to split into multiple (at least 2) doses per day anything with T3 in it.

 

[tara]

6 - The big question: if we raise [a man] the dose of progesterone for 30 or 40 mg per day, which undesirable effects should I expect? In libido? Bleeding? Irritability? what is the probable negative effects menu to a higher dose of progesterone? [Of course I know it depends on the person, yes; but what is the general menu?]

There are no doubt others, but potential negative effects of excessive progesterone that I've read of include:
- reduced libido in men (may not be your top priority if you are dealing with urinary affecting prostate issues)
- excessive anaesthesia (till you know what your tolerance is, taking several smaller doses 10 mins apart should avoid it getting dangerously extreme)
- increased sodium excretion (may need more sodium/salt to compensate?)
- reduced muscle mass if it's taken over an extended period.
I imagine there are others, but these are one's I remember at the moment.

Some people seem to be susceptible to trouble with DMSO; many seem to be fine with it, at least in small quantities, and some OK even with larger quantities.

 

[gilson dantas]

Very good @tara!
It is a good list of potential negative effects.
I never heard about sarcopenia [less muscle mass] with excessive progesterone;
I agree about to split the grain [of natural dessicated thyroid], makes sense; I just have no idea how many months it takes to get some temperature or pulse. Years maybe.

 

[gilson dantas]

A very good night to you @tara!
I´am going to take magnesium+aspirin+OJ+ salt and sleep

 

[SonOfEurope]

Get labs; full thyroid panel, estrogen, prolactin, and cortisol. You might also want to get your vitamin D levels checked.

I think you should start off gradually with thyroid, adding 1/4 grain every two weeks from a good quality thyroid source.

Better yet would be synthetic T3 and T4; if your goal is recovery these are necessary.

You should take DHEA.

You should eat very low-fat/high-carb with 100-150 grams/protein.

Serotonin antagonists may be beneficial in your case; cyproheptadine is one option, ritanserin another. You could also try a dopaminergic drug; the safest are lisuride and hydergine. Bromocriptine is less safe. Lastly, you can try an aromatase inhibitor; exemestane is probably the safest.

Coffee intake would help you; at your age you should take at least 80 mg aspirin/day.

Vitamin E is an estrogen antagonist; use K2 with vitamin E.

I Agree with this advice Dave, especially the thyroid part.

This is a bit off-topic but ironically, even though I'm off of it now the only "Antidepressant" that actually fulfilled it's task of "you have to give it time and your neurotransmitters will adapt " repetitive babble when psychiatrist where using me as a lab mouse was, in that regard, Mirtazapine.

Which shares similarities to those dopaminergic ones you mention but I'm not recommending it.

First month was a battle to get out of bed even after 10 hours of sleep on the initial dose of 7.5mg...

But what deep sleep it was, i needed 3 cups of coffee but by Noon I felt like a new man. Very well rested indeed.

You eventually develop tolerance and no longer need that much coffee but they go well and I noticed my character became more organized and assertive... The thinking process less sensitive to the stress response.... More able to take the stress of a task step by step without that negative anticipation stressing me... Perhaps it lowered Cortisol/Serotonin and elevated Test/prog to that point of change.

Downsides were the constipation and hunger... Brutal increase in appetite but this is normal (to some degree) of all anabolic + dopaminergic substances.

I don't take it anymore, progesterone completely replaced it years ago with the addition of DHEA and Pregnenolone but I testify it was the only positive one big pharma allowed me to taste.

I haven't experimented with any of the others except I'm thinking of giving Cypro a try once I lower the progesterone from 30mg to 10mg a day in a few months..

My Pregnenolone will stay at 300mg/week .

We'll see...

Best of luck to OP.

 

[SonOfEurope]

I really appreciate your intervention, @tara ;
1 - Yes, my goal is to strength the supply of magnesium [oral and transdermal I use every day, epsom salt bath feet too]
2 - I make daily use of cheese [is more than half of my daily 120 g of protein] then in that case, I think the calcium-phosphate ratio should be improving;
3 - Very well: I will use the co2 bag every day [about 5 times a day] to help improve co2;
4 - My goal in this fight [my particular war] is to lower prolactin, reduce the growth of prostate, bring down homocysteine, raise copper and DHEA, but above all, the strategic objective is temperature and heart rate;
They are very low; NEVER the temperature goes beyond 36 degrees C; and the pulse does not go beyond the 72; ie, in addition to estrogenic dominance I have a chronic hypothyroidism, hard to crack;
5 - Today use 1 grain of NDT every 3 days; but I´am thinking now, that a better plan, considering my degree of hypothyroidism, can be 1/4 of grain every day; or it would be better 1 grain every 3 days? What would be the better physiological form?
6 - The big question: if we raise [a man] the dose of progesterone for 30 or 40 mg per day, which undesirable effects should I expect? In libido? Bleeding? Irritability? what is the probable negative effects menu to a higher dose of progesterone? [Of course I know it depends on the person, yes; but what is the general menu?]
hug!![Gracias!] I really appreciate any feedback from your fellow companions and peatians!

For the progesterone part:

I am 28 and taken 30 mg daily for two years, I've alternated between protest-e and progestene.. But always divided 15mg morning (before breakfast and coffee to avoid going to work drowsy) and 15mg before bed.

I had, at the beginning, a slight reduction in libido that lasted maybe a month and half or two, I guess I was getting that legendary Estrogen tissue flush since I even had liquid retention the first week of use.

As time passed everything re-regulated... Libido and "size" are if anything better BUT when I attempted (twice ) to increase the dose to 40/42mg a day it really came down like a rock so I've stayed in the 30mg range.

Progesterone in higher doses competes with Testosterone at the 5ar enzyme level so it opposes DHT but at the adequate dose it will balance things out and would result androgenic.

It improves the body's retention of potassium, while putting magnesium and calcium to do the right things... Calcium esp.

Do make sure to get ample minerals on progesterone.

It's very anabolic or at least anti catabolic and increases appetite and need for sleep (I usually take a nap after work) and sleep 9 hours like a baby at night.

My voice has gotten deeper, beard gone further up on the face and I've become a bit more vascular... But this might also be due to my workout regimen and adding in 309mg Pregnenolone/week and some DHEA and even low dose androsterone since June, you can read my previous posts.

The trick is to eat more to satiety as your body will demand for the healing but reduce fat, so long as your carb source and adequate protein with balanced amino acids are in and you still get decent A,D,K2 you should even be able to gain muscle with minimal fat gain. I reduced my fat intake drastically but still eat some small bit of butter/ghee for them.

I have used progesterone to come off Benzos with incredible success and if you want details go though my posts.

If, for you, 30mg/day after a month is resulting anti androgenic then lower it to 20mg and you should be absolutely fine and more so with a base of Pregnenolone and low dose DHEA. Just please remember, divide the dose of progesterone and take your morning dose with coffee/caffeine to maximize some of the good stuff but especially to not feel/be sedated while driving/operating machinery.

Y de nada amigo, ¡para eso estamos.!

 

[SonOfEurope]

And if you really are gonna go higher than 30mg on the progesterone you should expect a reduction in libido but still functional if you know what I mean... to neuter a man with progesterone you need OVER 80 or 90 mg a day but that would sedate you beyond acceptable degree and I don't see the point of such a high dose unless you need to heal brain damage or bring estrogen to 0 which is hot optimal either... My advice is to try what i am on (28-30mg) and see how it goes from there... I am 85 kilos BTW.

 

[equipoise]

And if you really are gonna go higher than 30mg on the progesterone you should expect a reduction in libido but still functional if you know what I mean... to neuter a man with progesterone you need OVER 80 or 90 mg a day but that would sedate you beyond acceptable degree and I don't see the point of such a high dose unless you need to heal brain damage or bring estrogen to 0 which is hot optimal either... My advice is to try what i am on (28-30mg) and see how it goes from there... I am 85 kilos BTW.

Great posts @SonOfEurope

I find 4mg per does sufficient enough. Can't even imagine how 15mg feels at once.

 

[SonOfEurope]

Great posts @SonOfEurope

I find 4mg per does sufficient enough. Can't even imagine how 15mg feels at once.

Thanks.

4mg is not bad, almost what Testicular progesterone production is in a male naturally (5 - 7mg I think)... Good for extra balance and Aromatase inhibition.

I've adjusted to 15mg at once but it will always make you a bit "too relaxed " even if it's just from its GABA agonism... But 90mg a day would definitely momentarily castrate a man unless accompanied by DHEA in higher doses or even straight up Testosterone... But again the sedation would impede a lot of things.

I don't know if someone who knows can answer this: How much Progesterone per day do women women produce when pregnant? I know it's a COLOSSAL amount but I'd like to know much, or at least what their blood levels are.