Progesterone And "estrogen Detox" Symptoms

[dookie]

When I use progesterone, even just a few milligrams topically, I get elevated estrogen symptoms. My body swells up and takes up water, etc.

On several websites, they say that progesterone causes an "estrogen detox" reaction, as estrogen escapes the cells, and is taken up by the blood, to travel to the liver to be eliminated or "detoxed". During this temporary period, as progesterone causes increased elimination of the excess tissue bound estrogen, there will be some estrogen symptoms - and the idea is to increase the progesterone to even higher doses, and to keep taking it, until the estrogen symptoms disappear.

I know Peat doesn't believe in this theory, and he says progesterone should cause an immediate decrease in estrogenic symptoms, never an increase.

Has anyone experienced initial increase in estrogen symptoms when using progesterone, which disappeared completely after continued use? Or did the estrogen symptoms from progesterone continue?

 

[tara]

I know Peat doesn't believe in this theory, and he says progesterone should cause an immediate decrease in estrogenic symptoms, never an increase.

Where have you seen that Peat does not endorse this view? I had thought it was his view too - that a little progesterone can be enough to release estrogen from tissues into blood, but not enough to adequately counteract that estrogen.
There are online instructions attributed to him that seem to use this ideaa - but maybe he hasn't written/endorsed them? Eg suggetions to take 10mg 5x a day initially, then reduce after a while.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Does pregnenolone cause this detox via conversion to progesterone? I'm seeing these symptoms in my wife.

 

[dookie]

Where have you seen that Peat does not endorse this view? I had thought it was his view too - that a little progesterone can be enough to release estrogen from tissues into blood, but not enough to adequately counteract that estrogen.
There are online instructions attributed to him that seem to use this ideaa - but maybe he hasn't written/endorsed them? Eg suggetions to take 10mg 5x a day initially, then reduce after a while.

Look at the Ray Peat email depository. He has mentioned it to several people. He doesn't believe in the "progesterone temporary increases estrogen symptoms" or "estrogen detox symptoms". He has also said it to me in a personal email correspondence. It blocks estrogen via several mechanisms, so should (according to theory) show only estrogen lowering effects, in any dose, never an estrogen increase.

Unfortunately, it seems that my body doesn't operate according to that theory, and something else is going on, which I'm trying to figure out.

 

[dookie]

Does pregnenolone cause this detox via conversion to progesterone? I'm seeing these symptoms in my wife.

That's what I'm not sure of, if these are truly temporary "estrogen detox symptoms", or if the progesterone (or pregnenolone) is actually being converted into estrogen

 

[tara]

I have read all the email depository, though not just recently.
I agree that he says it opposes estrogen, not increases it. But he distinguishes estrogen in tissues with estrogen in blood. So you can lower overall estrogen with progesterone while still showing higher estrogen in the blood, because the progesterone tends to move it out of other tissues and into circulation, right?

 

[dookie]

I have read all the email depository, though not just recently.
I agree that he says it opposes estrogen, not increases it. But he distinguishes estrogen in tissues with estrogen in blood. So you can lower overall estrogen with progesterone while still showing higher estrogen in the blood, because the progesterone tends to move it out of other tissues and into circulation, right?

I'm not sure about the estrogen higher in the blood, but he clearly states several places that it should never cause estrogen symptoms

 

[tara]

That's what I'm not sure of, if these are truly temporary "estrogen detox symptoms", or if the progesterone (or pregnenolone) is actually being converted into estrogen

I'm pretty sure the progesterone is not being converted to estrogen.

Look at the Ray Peat email depository. He has mentioned it to several people. He doesn't believe in the "progesterone temporary increases estrogen symptoms" or "estrogen detox symptoms".

I've just reread all the references to progesterone in the email depository. Peat may well believe as you say, but unless I missed something, he didn't say it as clearly as you just stated it. If you have personal emails from him that are clearer on this point, maybe you could post them in the depository too?

 

[skycop00]

I would be concerned about the source of then Pg you're using.

 

[Bones]

Anything i have used that is supposed to increase progesterone has made me feel bad, be it maca power or progesterone creams and especially progest e. I also noticed in a half a dozen people I know of who take it that it caused weight gain and breast size increase, side effects that were wholly undesirable in these individuals.

I would seriously question why one is using it and what goals they are trying to achieve with it and what symptoms they are measuring in their bodies to make sure it's actually doing something favorable and not just another stress the body has to deal with. It really gave me horrible symptoms and I am surprised that so many people are willing to add a hormone to their repertoire without even knowing what symptoms they are specifically trying to address or reduce by its addition. I took it for a pms symptom and it made that specific symptom ten times worse. Letrozole did the same thing so it makes me wonder about the blanket proclamations of blindly trying to increase progesterone and decrease estrogen as a goal to achieve at all costs.

I have spent a significant amount of time studying hormones over the years and looking for answers from people way smarter than me. My personal conclusion is we are far from having a reliable and comprehensive understanding about hormones. There are many conflicting opinions.and varying results with hormone therapy. If a person takes progesterone and feels worse, I see no point in forcing yourself to take more and push through that. That's a directive for more sickness in the body, just pushing through everything because a supplement should be working but clearly isn't. The body can adapt to things that aren't really optimal for it in the long run so if the symptoms do finally go away after months of pushing through, you may have just adapted to something your body is forced to process that takes up its energy and resources in a way that doesn't even increase net gains of increased well-being and balance.

At least get familiar with reading the downsides of using it in books and studies. It's not all roses for everyone.

 

[tara]

If a person takes progesterone and feels worse, I see no point in forcing yourself to take more and push through that. That's a directive for more sickness in the body, just pushing through everything because a supplement should be working but clearly isn't.

I agree that if something continues to make one feel worse over an extended period, it's not a good sign, and it's worth questioning whether to continue.

But first, there may be a case for an initial unfavourable reaction being considered in the light of whether other aspects of nutrition need adjusting to support it. There are some other tactics that may be supportive along with supplementation - eg ensuring adequate carbs, minerals, etc, since progesterone may increase the requirements for some minerals and carbs. That doesn't mean keep doing something that isn't working well, it means seeing if you can get it to work better before giving up.

Stress hormones can sometimes make people feel good and energetic. For people who are accustomed to running on chronically high stress hormones, reducing them may not feel good. So it's probably worth considering other indicators are going in a good direction. I agree with your point about considering what you are taking it for and monitoring to see if it is having favourable effects.

Also, sometimes what people want, and what is health supportive for them, is not the same thing, so this is worth considering too. I don't know how one would assess whether or not weight gain and increased breast-size under the influence of progesterone were health supportive or not - for some people it many be what the body needs, for others not. One might want to consider other contributors to this too. Of course some people may not be eager to experience this, but that is not the same thing.

But taking these factors into account, I wouldn't be confident about recommending to continue an experiment with progesterone or any other supplement for more than a week or two, certainly not months, if the indicators are that it is worsening health.

 

[Peata]

These are the Progest E instructions from Long natural health. I had to use high doses of Progest E - hundreds of mg. per day, to stop estrogen dominance symptoms. I did stop using Progest E because the last two bottles seemed "off" and no longer had the same effect.

HOW TO USE DR. PEAT’S 10% NATURAL BIOIDENTICAL PROGESTERONE IN VITAMIN E

**Keep Refrigerated**

The minimum maintenance dose of Progest-E oil is 3 drops daily, usually from mid-cycle to menses. Women who have little to no symptoms at all can take this dosage. The more severe your symptoms, the more doses you need. It is recommended that nearly everyone should begin with the high dose directions for 10 days to avoid complications (as low thyroid, high estrogen situations require a high initial dose to avoid progesterone reverting to estrogen). For example, to relieve severe symptoms (hot flashes, menstrual pain, cramping, PMS, ovarian cysts, fibrocystic breast disease, high estrogen, etc.) take one dose (3 drops) five times daily for 10 days, then decrease to about 3 doses daily for 1-2 two weeks (can be longer as needed). Eventually, 1-2 doses for another few weeks or months as needed. Can continue using every day, or if you’re having a regular menses you can switch to a maintenance dose: one dose per day from mid-cycle to start of menses (usually about 14 days).

Progesterone is stored in the fat cells so not everyone will need continuous doses. You must decide from your symptoms and individual need. This product is taken orally. It is best to rub it around your gums and let it absorb, as opposed to just swallowing it. A drop will look like the size of a drop that comes out of a dropper. It is easiest to measure the drop at room temperature. When PGE is cold, it will come out in a large drop, so estimate it, the amount does not have to be perfect. Do not take progesterone while nursing.

Natural bioidentical progesterone is an anti-tumor hormone and will stimulate your body to make it. There are no known toxic side-effects from natural progesterone. An overdose produces anesthesia. If you choose to discontinue PGE, it is recommended that you wean yourself off it and not stop abruptly. Stopping too fast or if still needed can cause side-effects. Some get hot flashes in three months and some the next day. Balancing the body chemistry is the key. Progesterone protects against the toxic effects of estrogen. By estrogen, we mean any kind, be it what your body makes, or what you take - natural or synthetic estrogens, such as Estriol or Premarin, respectively, or environmental estrogens, xeno-estrogens, herbal sources, such as black cohosh ("Remifemin"), sage and other herbal sources of estrogen.

If you have a goiter, progesterone's stimulation of thyroid secretion may lead to transient hyperthyroidism. If so, it’s better to shrink the thyroid with thyroid glandular first, then progesterone will not cause this effect.

In women with cystic ovaries, progesterone in small doses can be converted to estrogen because the cyst is stuck in the follicular phase. This causes spotting or sore breasts. If this happens with a small dose of progesterone, it's a sign of cystic ovaries. Increasing the dosage of progesterone to 1/4 tsp. once and sometimes twice in one day is enough to reverse this situation. Thyroid supplementation is usually necessary as well.

One drop of Progest-E oil contains about three milligrams of progesterone. Normally, the body produces 10 to 20 milligrams per day. A quantity of 3 or 4 drops usually brings the blood levels up to

the normal range, but this dose can be repeated several times during the day if it is needed to control symptoms. Furthermore, one drop will include between 4-22mg of Vitamin E.

For general purposes, it is most economical and effective to take progesterone dissolved in vitamin E orally, for example taking a few drops on the lips and tongue, or rubbing it into the gums (it is good for the general health of the gums). These membranes are very thin, and the progesterone quickly enters the blood. When it is swallowed, the vitamin E allows it to be absorbed through the walls of the stomach and intestine, and it can be assimilated along with food, in the chylomicrons, permitting it to circulate in the blood to all of the organs before being processed by the liver.

For the topical treatment of sun damaged skin, or acne, wrinkles, etc., the oil can be applied directly to the affected area. For topical treatment of arthritis, tendonitis, bursitis, or varicose veins, to speed absorption it is best to apply a few drops of olive oil to the area, and then rub the Progest-E into and around the affected area. Some of the progesterone will be absorbed systemically, but the highest concentration is sustained in the local area, helping to correct the problem.

Why not use Natural Progesterone Cream?

Most progesterone creams contain less than 0.1% of progesterone, barely enough to be effective, except for mild female problems. Lab analysis of a cream called "Progest" shows that it contains less than 0.1% progesterone. Even true 3% progesterone creams are not enough for most women, which is why we recommend Dr. Peat's 10% progesterone dissolved in natural vitamin E. Most progesterone products are suspended in synthetic vitamin E or even worse, toxic oils, such as soybean or corn oils. Some have parabens and other toxic ingredients. Only dissolved progesterone is useable by the human body.

Warning: Progesterone and Wild Yam (Dioscorea) are not the same. Do not confuse progesterone with unaltered wild yam (dioscorea). The human body cannot convert wild yam to progesterone. The body makes progesterone only from cholesterol. The conversion of wild yam to natural progesterone must be done in a chemical factory. So all "progesterone" products labeled "wild yam" (underived) are bogus. Unaltered wild yam, in sufficient amounts, is toxic.

Dr. Peat's Progest E Complex contains the following:

• Supplement Facts: Serving Size 3 drops, Servings per Container about 300
  
  
• Natural d-alpha tocopherol &/or mixed tocopherols (vitamin E) 4-22 mg per drop; 12-66 mg per
  
  serving
  
  
• Natural progesterone derived from wild yam 3 mg per drop; 9 mg per serving
  
  
• Other Ingredients: Vegetable triglycerides (plant-based, sourced from either olive or coconut)
  
  **The vitamin E in the Progest-E Complex is derived from soy, yet many people with soy allergies have no problem with Progest-E because often an allergic reaction is a response to soy proteins. There are no proteins in the oily fractions of the plant (such as vitamin E), which is a highly purified distillate. If you have a soy allergy, it is best to first test on a small area of the skin (ex: ankle).
  
  The progesterone in Dr. Peat’s Progest-E Complex is USP.
  

 

[ecstatichamster]

Pregnenolone helped my wife immediately stopping hot flashes. She lubricates much better. But she's had cysts appear on her skin and I think it's from this. Is this temporary?

 

[goodandevil]

Anything i have used that is supposed to increase progesterone has made me feel bad, be it maca power or progesterone creams and especially progest e. I also noticed in a half a dozen people I know of who take it that it caused weight gain and breast size increase, side effects that were wholly undesirable in these individuals.

I would seriously question why one is using it and what goals they are trying to achieve with it and what symptoms they are measuring in their bodies to make sure it's actually doing something favorable and not just another stress the body has to deal with. It really gave me horrible symptoms and I am surprised that so many people are willing to add a hormone to their repertoire without even knowing what symptoms they are specifically trying to address or reduce by its addition. I took it for a pms symptom and it made that specific symptom ten times worse. Letrozole did the same thing so it makes me wonder about the blanket proclamations of blindly trying to increase progesterone and decrease estrogen as a goal to achieve at all costs.

I have spent a significant amount of time studying hormones over the years and looking for answers from people way smarter than me. My personal conclusion is we are far from having a reliable and comprehensive understanding about hormones. There are many conflicting opinions.and varying results with hormone therapy. If a person takes progesterone and feels worse, I see no point in forcing yourself to take more and push through that. That's a directive for more sickness in the body, just pushing through everything because a supplement should be working but clearly isn't. The body can adapt to things that aren't really optimal for it in the long run so if the symptoms do finally go away after months of pushing through, you may have just adapted to something your body is forced to process that takes up its energy and resources in a way that doesn't even increase net gains of increased well-being and balance.

At least get familiar with reading the downsides of using it in books and studies. It's not all roses for everyone.

Do you know of anyone it benefited?

 

[Bones]

Do you know of anyone it benefited?

I know someone who had a miscarriage who used it and then carried the next two pregnancies to term. I know people, male and female, who felt a surge in their sex drive. A lot of people in the population outside of Peat use progesterone cream and report many benefits. But like everything else, I know of many problems with using it and there are books I have come across with practitioners, medical doctors and otherwise, saying too much progesterone supplementation, not progestin but progesterone, can be problematic. I just think it shouldn't be undertaken lightly like it's a vitamin. I know of one lady who used it for years, she's in her thirties and she followed peat starting around 6 years ago. She would always take progesterone like it was some magic elixir. Then I remember she had really bad cramps and she was in shock that something could go wrong with her cycle because after all she was taking in some much progest e. She never connected her symptoms to thinking something like "maybe I should back off progest e". Progest e gave me the worst cramps of my life. I was literally on the floor rolling around.

I personally think (just one person's opinion here) that suggestions of using vitamins to help with hormone regulation specifically B6 and Vitamin E are a better starting point and then unfold from there to pregnenolone etc.

 

[goodandevil]

I know someone who had a miscarriage who used it and then carried the next two pregnancies to term. I know people, male and female, who felt a surge in their sex drive. A lot of people in the population outside of Peat use progesterone cream and report many benefits. But like everything else, I know of many problems with using it and there are books I have come across with practitioners, medical doctors and otherwise, saying too much progesterone supplementation, not progestin but progesterone, can be problematic. I just think it shouldn't be undertaken lightly like it's a vitamin. I know of one lady who used it for years, she's in her thirties and she followed peat starting around 6 years ago. She would always take progesterone like it was some magic elixir. Then I remember she had really bad cramps and she was in shock that something could go wrong with her cycle because after all she was taking in some much progest e. She never connected her symptoms to thinking something like "maybe I should back off progest e". Progest e gave me the worst cramps of my life. I was literally on the floor rolling around.

I personally think (just one person's opinion here) that suggestions of using vitamins to help with hormone regulation specifically B6 and Vitamin E are a better starting point and then unfold from there to pregnenolone etc.

Yeah my gf didnt feel so well on it, but she didnt reduce her tbyroid hormone. The directions are really confusing there's at least 3 different sets of directions. Can't blame ray for that because he doesn't own the company. Maybe haidut's product will take over, it seems more economical anyways.

 

[tara]

I personally think (just one person's opinion here) that suggestions of using vitamins to help with hormone regulation specifically B6 and Vitamin E are a better starting point and then unfold from there to pregnenolone etc.

I agree that hormones should not be treated as vitamins - they are not.

I don't think anyone should be doing anything radical without watching themselves for effects. My take on 'Peating' includes learning about how one's own body responds to various tactics, not just blindly following anyone else's advice indefinitely.

I agree that addressing nutrition before embarking on hormone supplementation is a good idea. For at least two reasons:
1. Nutritional deficiencies may be a root cause of the trouble, and correcting them may allow the body to restore itself.
2. Supplementing hormones without ensuring generous nutrition may deepen nutritional deficiencies. This is not good in itself, and it also complicates the picture of trying to solve the issues - makes it harder to distinguish what is caused by inadequate nutrition and what is caused directly by the hormones. For instance, if someone is not getting enough of some of the alkaline minerals, and then they get cramps after using progesterone, does it make sense to conclude that the progesterone was the problem?

Once nutrition is good, it seems many women do benefit from progesterone, and one of the things that can be worth trying (not necessarily continuing for years on faith if it's not helping) is larger doses, as suggested in that Long Natural Health instruction that Peata posted.

 

[Bones]

if someone is not getting enough of some of the alkaline minerals, and then they get cramps after using progesterone, does it make sense to conclude that the progesterone was the problem?

Once nutrition is good, it seems many women do benefit from progesterone.

What in the world is "enough alkaline minerals"? What is good nutrition? If a person is meeting the RDAs and taking in minerals already for a long time before starting progest e then it's not the lack of nutrition and lack of minerals that are the stressors creating the negative symptoms when applying progest e, because that has been accounted for. It's the progest e that is disrupting the system and needs to be at least questioned as something that is bad for the body at that time. Nutrition can't be held as a static thing, as Peat mentioned, "If Heraclitus said it's impossible to step in the same river twice, his comment was directed to those who ignore the rich complexity of experience because of stereotyped “elemental” thinking."

I can think of no better place to apply the rich complexity of experience point of view than the application of hormone therapy. People who run out and buy progesterone cream, who know nothing of Peat, and who have a good experience with it aren't always combining it with good nutrition. It's not a cut and dry thing. Progest e isn't for everyone even if nutrition is "good". It needs to be used with caution and a person needs to pay attention to their symptoms and understand the possible cost of pushing through their bad symptoms.

 

[tara]

If a person is meeting the RDAs and taking in minerals already for a long time before starting progest e then it's not the lack of nutrition and lack of minerals that are the stressors creating the negative symptoms when applying progest e, because that has been accounted for.

I don't think it's always so easy to tell what is adequate or optimal nutrition, and I don't think there is one size that fits all. That's why i think it can be valuable sometimes to experiment more generously sometimes. There is a lot of discussion about such things here, as I'm sure you know. The people who come here saying they eat well and just want to discuss supplemental hormones or drugs are sometime s missing quite important dietary factors.

The RDA are the estimated minimum amounts that will be enough to keep the majority of the population from getting obvious deficiency diseases. They do not guarantee to be enough to be optimal for everyone. They also tend to be referenced to a low calorie diet (eg ~2000cals), so someone with a healthy metabolism who is eating significantly more than this is likely to need more of some nutrients. If someone has been getting enough micronutrients to support a slow metabolism, and then they increase metabolism, they are likely to need more than before of some things.

Peat tends to recommends 80-100 g good quality protein for low thyroid folk, but needs can be higher for euthyroid.

People's needs can differ. Peat has for instance talked about hypothyroid folk being prone to losing magnesium faster than euthyroid folk, and therefore maybe benefiting form more of it. Sodium needs can also vary. Peat has suggested higher quantities of calcium than RDA, though there are people here who think that context matters for this too.

Specifically, I think I've read (maybe on one of Haidut's threads?) that progesterone can increase salt excretion. Peat has said that sodium can help retain magnesium. Low sodium and/or low magnesium are amongst the ways to get cramps.

Different forms of minerals can be absorbed more and less well, and this can vary between people.
Peat has referred to multi-mineral/vitamin supplements likely having interactions between constituents that may make some of them less effective.
Foods contain minerals and vitamins in relation to the nutrients in the soil and the growing conditions - they can vary a lot.

The amount of one mineral can affect how other minerals work in the body.

How does one know if one is getting enough of them all? I don't know for myself. There are always so many factors that I often find it difficult to assign cause to my symptoms.

 

[tara]

It needs to be used with caution and a person needs to pay attention to their symptoms and understand the possible cost of pushing through their bad symptoms.

I don't see much of a case for pushing through with bad symptoms when taking progesterone. The people it works for are probably the ones who don't get bad symptoms.

It's the progest e that is disrupting the system and needs to be at least questioned as something that is bad for the body at that time.

It might be the progest-e that's disrupting the system, and if you can't change something and make it work better fairly quickly, I'd agree it's probably better not to continue. At least for the time being.

Progest e isn't for everyone even if nutrition is "good".

Most likely not everyone needs it. There are probably more relevant factors for some people. And there's such a thing as too much.

I agree about nutrition not being static, and the whole picture being very complex.