Progestene - Liquid Progesterone (bioidentical)

[ilovewriting]

From Ray Peat:

"The progesterone in tocopherols absorbs by itself, but rubbing a little olive oil in with it greatly speeds the absorption. Thinning it that much in the bottle makes it crystallize out.

People usually wash before the solution has finished absorbing, so in practice the thinner/quicker solution gets more progesterone into the body."

[and]

In the powder form, direct and intimate contact with a mucous
membrane allows lipid phase to lipid phase transfer of progesterone
molecules. Instead of by-passing the liver, much of the progesterone is
picked up in the portal circulation, where a major part of it is
glucuronidated, and made water soluble for prompt excretion. Since this
glucuronide form cross-reacts to some extent with ordinary progesterone in
the assay process, and since 50% of the ordinary free progesterone is
carried inside the red blood cells,(10, 11) and 50% is associated with
proteins in the plasma, while the glucuronide hardly enters the red blood
cells at all, it is better to judge by clinical efficacy when comparing
different oral forms. My comparisons show several times higher potency in
the tocopherol composition than in powder form.

[also:]

While both animal studies and human studies have
shown that natural and synthetic progestins protect against
estrogen-induced cancers, and some other diseases, only
natural progesterone is recognized as having general value in
the treatment of the premenstrual syndrome. This is
apparently because natural progesterone has a broad spectrum
of intrinsic effects, and is easily metabolized into other active
hormones as needed, that is, it is a basic precursor substance.
It has been tested in isolation on practically every type of
tissue, where it seems to have a stabilizing action: nerve,
smooth muscle, cardiac muscle, epithelial cells, cells of the
immune system, etc. It is anti-spasmodic, anti-inflammatory,
anti-mitotic in certain tissues, and (at high concentration)
anesthetic. Its use before and during pregnancy has been
associated with a lower than normal incidence of birth defects.

Although natural progesterone has a broad spectrum of
action and is remarkably free of side effects, the use of natural
progesterone has been limited by the expense and inconvenience
of the forms commonly used. Some women continue to
use suppositories, because they do offer some relief of
symptoms, even though they are very messy, and they are
necessarily expensive, since only 5% or less of their progesterone
content can be absorbed.

Injectable progesterone is both inconvenient and
expensive. The form commonly used contains 10% benzyl
alcohol, as a solvent and as a local anesthetic, since
progesterone is not sufficiently soluble in ordinary vegetable
oil, and can be painful when injected as an aqueous
suspension. However, benzyl alcohol has significant toxicity
to nerves, and can produce anaphylaxis.(1) Benzyl alcohol, in
contact with tissue, combines with water, causing
progesterone to be deposited as crystals. Even if oils needed a
"bacteriostatic agent," the quantity used with progesterone has
no justification except as a solvent, but it is not described as
such. The fact that injected progesterone has been beneficial,
in spite of the neurotoxicity and instability of the solvent, is
another illustration of the protective action of progesterone.
Micropulverized progesterone is expensive when taken
orally, since it is poorly absorbed, and when absorbed it is
quickly inactivated by glucuronidation, since it is exposed to
enzyme action in the wall of the intestine itself and in the
liver, if the individually absorbed molecules get that far before
being inactivated.

Substances, even including peptides, which are
absorbed by the chylomicron pathway, reach the general
circulation without being exposed to the inactivating
glucuronide-transfer enzymes of the intestine or liver. People
often speak of "avoiding the liver on the first pass," but in fact chylomicrons
pass through the liver many times before they are destroyed;
after an hour, 10% of the chylomicrons are still circulating. If
progesterone is taken orally in oil in a truly solvated state, in a
monomolecular dispersion, it will enter the blood via the protected
chylomicron route. Merely mixing finely powdered
progesterone crystals with oil will not allow it to enter as chylomicrons;
the size of chylomicrons is very small. They are
usually about 4000 Angstrom units in diameter.

Fats taken orally are almost 100% absorbed by the small
intestine. Like other hydrophobic substances, progesterone
will be absorbed by adipose tissue and by the brain, but,
unlike other steroid hormones, it also tends to be absorbed by
red blood cells. Typically, the concentration of progesterone
in red blood cells is twice that of the serum.(2) (And the brain
contains a still higher concentration.) These intracellular
reservoirs of progesterone tend to prolong the elevated blood
levels resulting from the absorbed chylomicron-progesterone,
so that the observed hormone levels after a single oral dose
are much more stable than are the triglyceride levels after a
single fatty meal. Typically, after a single oral dose of 100
mg. of perfectly dispersed progesterone, a post-menopausal
woman's serum progesterone level will still be in the "normal
luteal phase range" 24 hours later. The difference in
efficiency--and therefore in cost--between this form and the
various crystalline dispersions is very large.

 

[schultz]

If that means less sales for me and more for Ray then I have no problem with that. The man deserves it.

I don't think Ray is even connected to the Progest-E product, other than the fact that he came up with the patent. According to Ray, he was told by law that he was not allowed to both talk about progesterone in his books and also sell a progesterone product, that's why he's not connected to it anymore. He said in an interview "They are not supposed to have my name on the product". I can get the clip if you're interested.

post 101990 My point is that there is a comparable topical product, Progest-E, and that I think you should compare it to your product. You are, after all, advertising on the RayPeat forum !

Progest-E is not comparable topically. Ray has mentioned that when Progest-e is applied topically only 20% or so is absorbed. Ray encourages oral use of Progest-E. Therefore, if someone wants a topical supplement, Haidut's seems to be a better option.

 

[SAFarmer]

post 102010
Progest-E is not comparable topically. Ray has mentioned that when Progest-e is applied topically only 20% or so is absorbed. Ray encourages oral use of Progest-E. Therefore, if someone wants a topical supplement, Haidut's seems to be a better option.

...and your source for both these 2 assertions?

1. where did Ray Peat say that?
2. Haidut's product better as topical supplement

 

[haidut]

post 101997 What is the cost of 2 blood tests compared to the value of a bottle of Progestene ? Surely 2 blood tests will cost way way more than $20 ?

Unless, you are NOT claiming your Progestene product gives more absorption of Progesterone into the blood than Progest-E, surely then it's only fair that you should provide the test results to back that up ?

Progesterone can be tested for about $20. So, let's make it 2 bottles then. And I sent you by email my test for progesterone after 3 days on a single dose Progestene (20mg). I know it's from 5 months ago but I don't have more recent results. As you can see my progesterone levels is 2.5 and the upper range for a male is 1.2, so that's quite high. Even the pregnenolone study on schizophrenia reported an average progesterone levels of about 2.2 as a result of 500mg oral pregnenolone for 8 weeks. My results are higher and due to just 3 days topical Progestene 20mg.
I hope that suffices, but when I get tested again in November I will send more results.

 

[ilovewriting]

post 101990 My point is that there is a comparable topical product, Progest-E, and that I think you should compare it to your product. You are, after all, advertising on the RayPeat forum !

Progest-E is not comparable topically. Ray has mentioned that when Progest-e is applied topically only 20% or so is absorbed. Ray encourages oral use of Progest-E. Therefore, if someone wants a topical supplement, Haidut's seems to be a better option.

I asked Ray Peat:

I wonder if local transdermal delivery with Progest-E, emu oil and DMSO could be more effective?
http://www.google.com/patents/US6303132

I'm thinking of this because you've been quoted as saying that transdermal Progest-E is only 10-20% absorbed.
https://www.litalee.com/documents/Proge ... Safety.pdf

Ray Peat replied:

"The progesterone in tocopherols absorbs by itself, but rubbing a little olive oil in with it greatly speeds the absorption. Thinning it that much in the bottle makes it crystallize out.

People usually wash before the solution has finished absorbing, so in practice the thinner/quicker solution gets more progesterone into the body."

And this from the Lita Lee article:

Myth Number 3: It doesn’t matter whether you eat progesterone, rub it on, take suppositories or inject it. It all gets absorbed.

Not so! According to Peat, the important issue in absorption is solubility. Progesterone is very insoluble in water so forget powdered progesterone. What happens? The powdered form cycles through the liver, is made water soluble, goes back through the blood and out the kidneys. Undissolved progesterone is a waste. This is a major reason why many women do not get the relief that they need. It is also why doctors using high doses of partially dissolved progesterone have not reported the high dose side effect of progesterone, namely anesthesia. Below are some more technical details for left brainers.

Progesterone is much more soluble in oil than water but few oils will dissolve enough progesterone to be effective. Peat did solubility studies and discovered that natural vitamin E oil dissolved 10% progesterone to form a stable amber-colored solution. He was granted a composition patent on his formula. By stable solution I mean that progesterone will not crystallize out of the solution in time. Indeed, if you watch this solution you will find that it remains crystal clear indefinitely with no cloudiness. This is important because only dissolved progesterone is absorbed and utilized by the body.

Peat says that, dissolved in natural vitamin E, progesterone enters the bloodstream almost immediately upon contact with any membrane, such as the lips, tongue, gums or palate. If swallowed, it is absorbed during the digestive process. If eaten along with food, its absorption occurs at the same rate as the digestion and absorption of food.

Because of this absorption route through the natural digestive process, it is almost 100% absorbed and is distributed to all tissues. How? Progesterone truly dissolved in natural vitamin E travels on chylomicron droplets, which are not lost via the liver and kidneys. Instead, chylomicrons “pass through the liver many times before they are destroyed,” then enter the blood via this protected chylomicron route.

Chylomicrons hold progesterone until they come into contact with a red blood cell or a protein molecule, especially albumin. Progesterone is then released and enters the red blood cell or blood protein. Red blood cells carry about two times more progesterone than the serum. Laboratories who discard both the red blood cells and the chylomicrons miss the majority of the progesterone in the blood. This explains the absorption controversy.

 

[SAFarmer]

Hi Haidut

Thanks for the test result. However, as you should know, a single point test result showing progesterone level in blood is not very helpfull in determining the comparison vs before, as well as, and even more importantly, vs that of using a competitor product likeProgest-E ? It would be helpful in your case of justifying paying nearly 5 times for your product that there is much more data available, more people, more tests etc.

5 times the price is really huge imo and needs a big justification.

 

[SAFarmer]

post 102014

I asked Ray Peat:

I wonder if local transdermal delivery with Progest-E, emu oil and DMSO could be more effective?
http://www.google.com/patents/US6303132

I'm thinking of this because you've been quoted as saying that transdermal Progest-E is only 10-20% absorbed.
https://www.litalee.com/documents/Proge ... Safety.pdf

Ray Peat replied:

"The progesterone in tocopherols absorbs by itself, but rubbing a little olive oil in with it greatly speeds the absorption. Thinning it that much in the bottle makes it crystallize out.

People usually wash before the solution has finished absorbing, so in practice the thinner/quicker solution gets more progesterone into the body."

You will notice the passage,
Compared to oral absorption, which is nearly 100%, transdermal absorption is about 10-20% ,
from the above document, is not from Peat, as he is not quoted there anymore...

If the progesterone is in a 100% Natural Vit E solution all of it will get absorbed, provided enough time and not being washed off, etc. Orally, ofcourse give much more certain and quicker absorption.

All of which says nothing ofcourse of the absorption of Progest-E vs that of Progestene from Haidut.

 

[ilovewriting]

Hi Haidut

Thanks for the test result. However, as you should know, a single point test result showing progesterone level in blood is not very helpfull in determining the comparison vs before, as well as, and even more importantly, vs that of using a competitor product likeProgest-E ? It would be helpful in your case of justifying paying nearly 5 times for your product that there is much more data available, more people, more tests etc.

5 times the price is really huge imo and needs a big justification.

It may be that a blood test will show undissolved progesterone, which is useless, but not the progesterone that is contained in chylomicrons and red blood cells that the lab discards.

Progesterone is less soluble in DMSO than in tocopherols, and DMSO has a far greater affinity to the bodily liquids than to progesterone. I think this suggests that some or much of the progesterone carried into the body by DMSO would then be crystallized out and left undissolved in the blood. (just my 2c)

 

[haidut]

post 102018 Hi Haidut

Thanks for the test result. However, as you should know, a single point test result showing progesterone level in blood is not very helpfull in determining the comparison vs before, as well as, and even more importantly, vs that of using a competitor product likeProgest-E ? It would be helpful in your case of justifying paying nearly 5 times for your product that there is much more data available, more people, more tests etc.

5 times the price is really huge imo and needs a big justification.

I already provided a justification - as mentioned before that the price is such based on both our labor costs and the survey I did. Why do I think I did the survey and mentioned $20 - $25 range as optimal? Because this is what the price needs to be for selling it to be worth it to us. In other words I explicitly asked what price range people would be comfortable with and this is the answer that came back. Obviously, not everybody on the forum responded, so I don't claim this to be representative of everyone. But I had to start somewhere and this how it started. So, if this means it is not a competitively priced product for the people that did not respond to the survey, I suggest these people go with Progest-E.
Seriously, it is that simple. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy anything and if you look at my posts you will see that I NEVER recommend any of my products. I only talk about generic substances and mention products only if asked directly about them. So, again, if somebody likes progesterone and are not OK with the price of Progestene then I suggest trying Progest-E or buying Prometrium and making your own topical supplement.

 

[haidut]

post 102023

Hi Haidut

Thanks for the test result. However, as you should know, a single point test result showing progesterone level in blood is not very helpfull in determining the comparison vs before, as well as, and even more importantly, vs that of using a competitor product likeProgest-E ? It would be helpful in your case of justifying paying nearly 5 times for your product that there is much more data available, more people, more tests etc.

5 times the price is really huge imo and needs a big justification.

It may be that a blood test will show undissolved progesterone, which is useless, but not the progesterone that is contained in chylomicrons and red blood cells that the lab discards.

Progesterone is less soluble in DMSO than in tocopherols, and DMSO has a far greater affinity to the bodily liquids than to progesterone. I think this suggests that some or much of the progesterone carried into the body by DMSO would then be crystallized out and left undissolved in the blood. (just my 2c)

If you take Progestene and it makes you sleepy and raises your temperatures it means it is getting delivered to the cells. I don't know how that effectiveness compares to Progest-E. This is why I wanted to avoid this. Since these are supplements, neither Ray nor I are allowed to claim any effects, INCLUDING absorption. Unless somebody is willing to pay for a clinical trial comparing Progestene and Progest-E, this is where it stops. The only thing I am ALLOWED (by law) to claim is that using 20mg of Progestene topically for 3 days raised MY progesterone above the reference range for a male.
As far as DMSO not being effective carrier, I suggest you type "progesterone DMSO" in PubMed and loot at some studies. Virtually all studies with progesterone use either ethanol/propylene-glycol carrier or DMSO (usually 90% strength). If these studies show effects, then you can make your own conclusions.
Again, if you don't like the product don't buy it.

 

[ilovewriting]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the progesterone in Progest-E costs considerably less than the equivalent amount of progesterone in Prometrium. Plus, you get tocopherols (essentially for free). And you get a fully absorbed topical application (which absorbs faster if you add a little olive oil).

Ray Peat's formulation is truly an extraordinary value when you consider that the progesterone is nearly 100% absorbed, and that progesterone may be extraordinarily important to the health of men and women.

 

[Blossom]

Several forum members asked Haidut to make a progesterone product because they felt Progest-e was no longer working as well as it used to and they were concerned about the quality. He was doing us a favor by providing a safe alternative and I appreciate it. I'll try to find the thread.

 

[SAFarmer]

post 102024
I already provided a justification - as mentioned before that the price is such based on both our labor costs and the survey I did. Why do I think I did the survey and mentioned $20 - $25 range as optimal? Because this is what the price needs to be for selling it to be worth it to us. In other words I explicitly asked what price range people would be comfortable with and this is the answer that came back. Obviously, not everybody on the forum responded, so I don't claim this to be representative of everyone. But I had to start somewhere and this how it started. So, if this means it is not a competitively priced product for the people that did not respond to the survey, I suggest these people go with Progest-E.
Seriously, it is that simple. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy anything and if you look at my posts you will see that I NEVER recommend any of my products. I only talk about generic substances and mention products only if asked directly about them. So, again, if somebody likes progesterone and are not OK with the price of Progestene then I suggest trying Progest-E or buying Prometrium and making your own topical supplement.

I am sorry Haidut, and this is nothing personal as I really like you, but this latest argument of yours does not hold water.

Why did you try to rely on blood test results and absorption arguments then first to try and justify your price vs Progest-E ?
Now you say it was because of labour costs and a survey ?
Whas this survey done on the price of your Progestene product ?
Where is this survey so I can see for myself if it showed how much progesterone one would get in your product vs that of Progest-E.

I have a suggestion. Do a new survey and ask the forum members if they are willing to pay 5 times more for your Progesterone product vs that of Progest-E, or the same price but get 1/5 of the active ingredient (Progesterone) as in Progest-E ?

I would be really interested in the result of this survey.

PS. I am a client of Haidut and have purchased many (at least 20) bottles of Estroban from him in the past. I appreciate what he has done and contributes to this forum. I have also helped him source cheaper Vit K products as ingredients for his products in the past. So I am not against him, on the contrary, but thinks his arguments are not very valid here.

 

[SAFarmer]

post 102032 Several forum members asked Haidut to make a progesterone product because they felt Progest-e was no longer working as well as it used to and they were concerned about the quality. He was doing us a favor by providing a safe alternative and I appreciate it. I'll try to find the thread.

Hi Blossom

The issue is not the product, it's the price !

 

[SAFarmer]

post 102031 Correct me if I'm wrong but the progesterone in Progest-E costs considerably less than the equivalent amount of progesterone in Prometrium. Plus, you get tocopherols (essentially for free). And you get a fully absorbed topical application (which absorbs faster if you add a little olive oil).

Ray Peat's formulation is truly an extraordinary value when you consider that the progesterone is nearly 100% absorbed, and that progesterone may be extraordinarily important to the health of men and women.

You are right.

 

[Blossom]

Here is one thread where concerns about Progest-e were cropping up. I've continued to use it anyway and I'm currently awaiting my first bottle of progestene to compare. I understand your point SAFarmer and didn't mean to insinuate you had an issue with haidut's products. Most of the products haidut makes have been requested by forum members though.
viewtopic.php?t=4356#p52325
I used to have my own handmade skin care business so I can relate to how labor intensive haidut's supplement business must be. I had to stop because it was too much to work full-time and keep that going too. I hope haidut's supplement business is a success because I really value having access to his products. It's certainly a niche market.

 

[haidut]

post 102034

post 102024
I already provided a justification - as mentioned before that the price is such based on both our labor costs and the survey I did. Why do I think I did the survey and mentioned $20 - $25 range as optimal? Because this is what the price needs to be for selling it to be worth it to us. In other words I explicitly asked what price range people would be comfortable with and this is the answer that came back. Obviously, not everybody on the forum responded, so I don't claim this to be representative of everyone. But I had to start somewhere and this how it started. So, if this means it is not a competitively priced product for the people that did not respond to the survey, I suggest these people go with Progest-E.
Seriously, it is that simple. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy anything and if you look at my posts you will see that I NEVER recommend any of my products. I only talk about generic substances and mention products only if asked directly about them. So, again, if somebody likes progesterone and are not OK with the price of Progestene then I suggest trying Progest-E or buying Prometrium and making your own topical supplement.

I am sorry Haidut, and this is nothing personal as I really like you, but this latest argument of yours does not hold water.

Why did you try to rely on blood test results and absorption arguments then first to try and justify your price vs Progest-E ?
Now you say it was because of labour costs and a survey ?
Whas this survey done on the price of your Progestene product ?
Where is this survey so I can see for myself if it showed how much progesterone one would get in your product vs that of Progest-E.

I have a suggestion. Do a new survey and ask the forum members if they are willing to pay 5 times more for your Progesterone product vs that of Progest-E, or the same price but get 1/5 of the active ingredient (Progesterone) as in Progest-E ?

I would be really interested in the result of this survey.

PS. I am a client of Haidut and have purchased many (at least 20) bottles of Estroban from him in the past. I appreciate what he has done and contributes to this forum. I have also helped him source cheaper Vit K products as ingredients for his products in the past. So I am not against him, on the contrary, but thinks his arguments are not very valid here.

Look at this post:
posting.php?mode=edit&f=130&p=101978

This is my first response to you and in it I clearly say that it is the labor costs that justify the price. I only started adding information about absorption and and blood levels because: 1) you asked for the blood results and 2) I wanted to point out that with oral products like Prometrium you actually end up paying more if you factor in how much progesterone ends up in your blood.
The survey was done for ANY product since at the time I did not have any products and was wondering whether the price that I wanted to sell stuff at is acceptable to forum members.
Finally, I also mentioned that solubility of progesterone is about 22mg/mL for ethanol, DMSO, and some oils. If it happens to be more soluble in tocopherol that's great. I am not interested in making a competing product to Peat's based on tocopherols. There is value in variety, and also quite a few people have reported that they get GI issues from tocopherols. So, having an alternative is valuable IMHO.
I will finish again with the words - If you don't like the price, don't buy it!

 

[ilovewriting]

post 102042 I am not interested in making a competing product to Peat's based on tocopherols. There is value in variety, and also quite a few people have reported that they get GI issues from tocopherols. So, having an alternative is valuable IMHO.

I think I see your point. Given your labor costs, you can't compete on price with the products that already use Ray Peat's patent at production scale, and want to distinguish your custom product in a niche where you can charge the higher price you must.

That makes sense! My concern is that Ray Peat's formulation can achieve the same absorption through membranes or the skin without ever entering the gut, and further, as Ray Peat says, "in a truly solvated state, in a monomolecular dispersion, it will enter the blood via the protected chylomicron route."

I don't see any study that shows that an alcohol or DMSO carrier, or even an injection method, achieves this monomolecular dispersion even after the solution is carried into bodily fluids. I think this is the basis really for Ray Peat's patent. (again, my 2c)

Best of luck to you, haidut!

 

[schultz]

post 102012

post 102010
Progest-E is not comparable topically. Ray has mentioned that when Progest-e is applied topically only 20% or so is absorbed. Ray encourages oral use of Progest-E. Therefore, if someone wants a topical supplement, Haidut's seems to be a better option.

...and your source for both these 2 assertions?

1. where did Ray Peat say that?
2. Haidut's product better as topical supplement

In regards to where Ray said that...


In regards to Haidut's being better topically...
I said it seems to be a better option. I've never actually seen a study on DMSO and progesterone topically (I haven't looked), but given the effect it has on other steroids, I'm making the assumption that DMSO improves its absorption.

@haidut ...

Here is Ray talking about not being involved with Progest-E.



Another thing Ray talked about is how when he first started making the Progest-E supplement, he was working with another guy. That "other guy" kept buying ingredients that were, in Ray's words "not quite progesterone or not quite vitamin e", in order to lower costs. I'm not saying that this is happening now, but if Ray actually isn't connected to the product anymore, how do we know if it isn't?

 

[SAFarmer]

post 102131

Another thing Ray talked about is how when he first started making the Progest-E supplement, he was working with another guy. That "other guy" kept buying ingredients that were, in Ray's words "not quite progesterone or not quite vitamin e", in order to lower costs. I'm not saying that this is happening now, but if Ray actually isn't connected to the product anymore, how do we know if it isn't?

This is a straw man argument and irrelevant to the discussion. The same could be said of Haidut's products ...

What is relevant though, is how much progesterone is getting absorbed into the body, and it's effects from the 2 different products and the comparitive prive you have to pay for that . If you have an answer to that, well then you have a point for discussion.

Do you think Haidut's product is worth 5 TIMES as much as Progest-E ?