Progestene - Liquid Progesterone (bioidentical)

[nikkmm]

I'm kind of worried @haidut, I used Progestene that I recently bought, and there's these websites stating Camphor can be lethal in children even in small amounts and toxic to the liver:

10 Unexpected Side Effects Of Camphor

4. Toxicity:
Camphor is highly toxic for humans. Its small amounts too can lead to death in children and toxicity in adults. Camphor hepatotoxicity is a serious side-effect of camphor ingestion. It leads to liver damage and sudden death.

5. Seizures:
Camphor can cause acute chemical imbalance in the brain. This leads to seizures. This is a very serious side effect of camphor ingestion. This is the reason that you should be careful of using camphor in any form if you have epilepsy.

6. Respiratory Problems:
Camphor can also cause respiration upset. This is an acute medical condition for children and infants suffering from respiratory disorders. Avoid the use of camphor completely on children who suffer from bronchitis or asthma. Camphor is highly dangerous for such children, as it causes chest congestion and sudden respiratory arrest.

10. Chest Problems:
Camphor can lead to discomfort in the chest. It induces a feeling of tightness and fullness in and around the chest region. It can also lead to swelling of the affected area.
Camphor has conventionally been called a healing herb. But people have stayed ignorant of the severe side effects of camphor. It has as many side-effects as its uses. You may consider using camphor in small amounts, but its larger doses are fatal.

Camphor Dangers

Seizures

Camphor can be poisonous when swallowed, report doctors at the Queensland Poisons Information Centre. Camphor is a common material used in chest rubs and vaporizers to clear stuffy sinuses and relieve cold symptoms. The camphor works by making the airways more sensitive to cold air, which provides false relief from the congestion. Chest rubs made with camphor do not have any decongestant properties.

Patients can become very sick if they swallow chest rub made with camphor. Convulsions can begin within five minutes of ingestion. Excessive amounts of camphor rubbed on the chest can cause seizures as well. As little as 10ml of camphor can be lethal for children when swallowed. In addition to seizures, symptoms of camphor poisoning include nausea, vomiting, agitation and stomachaches.

Respiratory Disease
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency approves the use of camphor in pesticides and other agricultural treatments because the exposure to humans and animals is minimal. High doses of inhaled camphor can result in congestive difficulties, however, and continued exposure can lead to respiratory dysfunctions such as emphysema. The EPA reports that camphor is a naturally occurring substance when released from trees and quickly dissipates in the air. Researchers at the agency also approve its use for agricultural purposes because the strong odor of camphor repels most humans and animals.

Are these true?? @haidut

I’m not haidut but I can anecdotally offer that I use a German product called Korodin, of which the primary ingredient is camphor, for orthostatic hypotension. As far as I know, the Germans are strict and careful about herbal pharmacopeia standards. Personally I love the smell of camphor. But the dose is 25 drops at a time. I truly think the dose makes the poison so I can believe that 10 ml at a time would be toxic to children. But I haven’t noticed anything negative from the recommended dose.

 

[LUH 3417]

My thighs are usually cold to touch but my chest and stomach typically feel warm. I’ve been using progestene for two days and my thighs are radiating heat. Does this mean progestene is helping peripheral perfusion and thyroid function??
On another note after returning home I took some progestene on an empty stomach. After a few min the veins in my hand starting bulging...even a vein on my pointer finger which I’ve never seen bulge before. I had some cheese and crackers and the vein bulging went down immediately. Is that due to high cortisol? @haidut

 

[haidut]

My thighs are usually cold to touch but my chest and stomach typically feel warm. I’ve been using progestene for two days and my thighs are radiating heat. Does this mean progestene is helping peripheral perfusion and thyroid function??
On another note after returning home I took some progestene on an empty stomach. After a few min the veins in my hand starting bulging...even a vein on my pointer finger which I’ve never seen bulge before. I had some cheese and crackers and the vein bulging went down immediately. Is that due to high cortisol? @haidut

I would say the radiating of heat is probably a sign that it is absorbing well. Progesterone is highly thermogenic. The lack of visibility of veins is usually due to more subcutaneous fat. Thyroid and progesterone tend to make veins more visible, but the goal is not to have them stick out like they do on a bodybuilder or a racehorse.

 

[haidut]

I'm kind of worried @haidut, I used Progestene that I recently bought, and there's these websites stating Camphor can be lethal in children even in small amounts and toxic to the liver:

10 Unexpected Side Effects Of Camphor

4. Toxicity:
Camphor is highly toxic for humans. Its small amounts too can lead to death in children and toxicity in adults. Camphor hepatotoxicity is a serious side-effect of camphor ingestion. It leads to liver damage and sudden death.

5. Seizures:
Camphor can cause acute chemical imbalance in the brain. This leads to seizures. This is a very serious side effect of camphor ingestion. This is the reason that you should be careful of using camphor in any form if you have epilepsy.

6. Respiratory Problems:
Camphor can also cause respiration upset. This is an acute medical condition for children and infants suffering from respiratory disorders. Avoid the use of camphor completely on children who suffer from bronchitis or asthma. Camphor is highly dangerous for such children, as it causes chest congestion and sudden respiratory arrest.

10. Chest Problems:
Camphor can lead to discomfort in the chest. It induces a feeling of tightness and fullness in and around the chest region. It can also lead to swelling of the affected area.
Camphor has conventionally been called a healing herb. But people have stayed ignorant of the severe side effects of camphor. It has as many side-effects as its uses. You may consider using camphor in small amounts, but its larger doses are fatal.

Camphor Dangers

Seizures

Camphor can be poisonous when swallowed, report doctors at the Queensland Poisons Information Centre. Camphor is a common material used in chest rubs and vaporizers to clear stuffy sinuses and relieve cold symptoms. The camphor works by making the airways more sensitive to cold air, which provides false relief from the congestion. Chest rubs made with camphor do not have any decongestant properties.

Patients can become very sick if they swallow chest rub made with camphor. Convulsions can begin within five minutes of ingestion. Excessive amounts of camphor rubbed on the chest can cause seizures as well. As little as 10ml of camphor can be lethal for children when swallowed. In addition to seizures, symptoms of camphor poisoning include nausea, vomiting, agitation and stomachaches.

Respiratory Disease
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency approves the use of camphor in pesticides and other agricultural treatments because the exposure to humans and animals is minimal. High doses of inhaled camphor can result in congestive difficulties, however, and continued exposure can lead to respiratory dysfunctions such as emphysema. The EPA reports that camphor is a naturally occurring substance when released from trees and quickly dissipates in the air. Researchers at the agency also approve its use for agricultural purposes because the strong odor of camphor repels most humans and animals.

Are these true?? @haidut

FDA allows camphor up to 11% in formulations sold OTC. In our formulation it is just 3%. So, even if somebody were to ingest the whole bottle in one sitting somehow, it would still not come close to what they consider toxic dose. Obviously, if somebody ingests the whole bottle it would be a deliberate attempt at suicide, so we can't do much about that other than put the minimum effective concentration that increase absorption (3%).
Why are you posting these fearmongering articles from a suspicious website that has not even one scientific reference to make these claims?? Is that where you get your health information from?
If you want to have a proper discussion, please post something more objective. Like this information below.
Severe camphor poisoning, a seven-year observational study. - PubMed - NCBI
"...In a retrospective case series from 2007 to 2014, we searched for any accidental/intentional, and recreational cases of pure camphor poisoning through hospital records. Epidemiological data, as well as factors correlated with seizure, were evaluated. Thirty cases including 29 males were recruited with a median age of 18 years (range; 0.2-87). Patient's reported ingestion rate of camphor was 1.5-15 grams. Almost all of the patients (96.7%) were conscious on arrival time and the ingestion to the presentation time ratio was 7±5h. It was observed that in a majority of the cases (53.4%), decreasing libido was the main intent of Camphor ingestion. Nausea and vomiting occurred in 22 (73.3%) cases and tonic-clonic seizure was seen in 12 (40%) patients. Mean presentation time was significantly longer in patients who experienced seizure (9.1±6.1h vs. 5.2±2.8h, p=0.05). No correlation was found between the amount of ingested camphor (grams or mg/kg) and vital signs along with the bio-chemistry results. Not only did all of our cases survive but also they exclusively received supportive care."

CAMPHOR - National Library of Medicine HSDB Database
"...Toxic effects appear after the ingestion of approximately 2 g (lethal dose adults: 4 g, children: 0.5-1 g, infants: 70 mg/kg of pure camphor). "

So, again, unless somebody is purposefully ingesting an entire bottle in an attempt to harm themselves this should not be a concern, and even then the total camphor dose would be below the dangerous levels even for an infant. That being said, the camphor is not yet settled as something we would add to all products. We are testing a few batches with camphor right now and if people like them we will keep it. If not, then it would be removed.

 

[TreasureVibe]

FDA allows camphor up to 11% in formulations sold OTC. In our formulation it is just 3%. So, even if somebody were to ingest the whole bottle in one sitting somehow, it would still not come close to what they consider toxic dose. Obviously, if somebody ingests the whole bottle it would be a deliberate attempt at suicide, so we can't do much about that other than put the minimum effective concentration that increase absorption (3%).
Why are you posting these fearmongering articles from a suspicious website that has not even one scientific reference to make these claims?? Is that where you get your health information from?
If you want to have a proper discussion, please post something more objective. Like this information below.
Severe camphor poisoning, a seven-year observational study. - PubMed - NCBI
"...In a retrospective case series from 2007 to 2014, we searched for any accidental/intentional, and recreational cases of pure camphor poisoning through hospital records. Epidemiological data, as well as factors correlated with seizure, were evaluated. Thirty cases including 29 males were recruited with a median age of 18 years (range; 0.2-87). Patient's reported ingestion rate of camphor was 1.5-15 grams. Almost all of the patients (96.7%) were conscious on arrival time and the ingestion to the presentation time ratio was 7±5h. It was observed that in a majority of the cases (53.4%), decreasing libido was the main intent of Camphor ingestion. Nausea and vomiting occurred in 22 (73.3%) cases and tonic-clonic seizure was seen in 12 (40%) patients. Mean presentation time was significantly longer in patients who experienced seizure (9.1±6.1h vs. 5.2±2.8h, p=0.05). No correlation was found between the amount of ingested camphor (grams or mg/kg) and vital signs along with the bio-chemistry results. Not only did all of our cases survive but also they exclusively received supportive care."

CAMPHOR - National Library of Medicine HSDB Database
"...Toxic effects appear after the ingestion of approximately 2 g (lethal dose adults: 4 g, children: 0.5-1 g, infants: 70 mg/kg of pure camphor). "

So, again, unless somebody is purposefully ingesting an entire bottle in an attempt to harm themselves this should not be a concern, and even then the total camphor dose would be below the dangerous levels even for an infant. That being said, the camphor is not yet settled as something we would add to all products. We are testing a few batches with camphor right now and if people like them we will keep it. If not, then it would be removed.

I'm sorry. I did not ment to fear monger. I was just scared when I saw these articles and I thought it was real.. Is the camphor noted on the product label if it's in it?

 

[haidut]

I'm sorry. I did not ment to fear monger. I was just scared when I saw these articles and I thought it was real.. Is the camphor noted on the product label if it's in it?

No worries, just saying that posting more objective information is more helpful to gauge risk. Peat has also spoken favorably about camphor.
Yes, if there is camphor in the bottle than the label will say it. Some of the product pages may not be all up to date so the label is always the most reliable source as this is what the customer gets and what FDA cares about.

 

[TreasureVibe]

No worries, just saying that posting more objective information is more helpful to gauge risk. Peat has also spoken favorably about camphor.
Yes, if there is camphor in the bottle than the label will say it. Some of the product pages may not be all up to date so the label is always the most reliable source as this is what the customer gets and what FDA cares about.

Thanks Haidut!

 

[TreasureVibe]

"Dr. Peat's Progest E Replenishing Oil Complex (natural progesterone oil) from Kenogen is natural bioidentical progesterone derived from wild yam preserved in vitamin E oil. Progest E continues to be our number #1 best seller."

Progest E by Ray Peat contains progesterone derived from wild yam, what is the progesterone derived from that your supplier gives to you? Thnx!

 

[haidut]

"Dr. Peat's Progest E Replenishing Oil Complex (natural progesterone oil) from Kenogen is natural bioidentical progesterone derived from wild yam preserved in vitamin E oil. Progest E continues to be our number #1 best seller."

Progest E by Ray Peat contains progesterone derived from wild yam, what is the progesterone derived from that your supplier gives to you? Thnx!

It is synthetic, derived most likely from pregnenolone.

 

[Waynish]

Should change picture on website to reflect the use of a different solvent

 

[walker_in_aus]

This stuff makes my skin so soft. Almost TOO soft. I keep rubbing my face - it's literally like a babies bottom. Also morning temps where they should be. Only been using this for a month.

 

[Owen B]

I was a little surprised about the camphor in the Progestene i just got.

I'm willing to trust that it's OK in these minute doses but since i like to take a few drops on my gums once or twice a week I have to say it doesn't taste that great.

I never had that much trouble with DMSO. I liked it. And no troubles with the SFA esters (it had a nice citrusy smell and taste).

But the product info in the first post doesn't say anything about camphor.

 

[haidut]

I was a little surprised about the camphor in the Progestene i just got.

I'm willing to trust that it's OK in these minute doses but since i like to take a few drops on my gums once or twice a week I have to say it doesn't taste that great.

I never had that much trouble with DMSO. I liked it. And no troubles with the SFA esters (it had a nice citrusy smell and taste).

But the product info in the first post doesn't say anything about camphor.

Camphor is there just for enhancing transdermal absorption, which should also help with sublingual. A few studies showed camphor increases transdermal absorption and possibly cellular uptake. Adamantane would do the same but much more potently. It is a tiny amount of camphor and it won't have any systemic effects. It will likely stay mostly on the skin and give a bit f camphor-like smell for a few hours. If people end up not liking the camphor version, we will remove it. It is still in testing mode and not set in stone.

 

[Owen B]

I get that. It's the fusty old consumerist in me that thinks that if no one is complaining, why change it?

But I know experimentation rules here and it's really OK with me.

As for the bioavailability, I've found that the current Progestene is stronger than the earlier types. The same dosage (4-5 mgs) I usually take, now seems to hammer me.

 

[haidut]

I get that. It's the fusty old consumerist in me that thinks that if no one is complaining, why change it?

But I know experimentation rules here and it's really OK with me.

As for the bioavailability, I've found that the current Progestene is stronger than the earlier types. The same dosage (4-5 mgs) I usually take, now seems to hammer me.

Interesting. You mean the one with camphor in it, right? Any other effects you notice - i.e. longer lasting effects, less fever-inducing, etc? The camphor is supposed to affect those as well.

 

[LUH 3417]

I feel like the camphor is more effective than the one with just sfa and ethanol. More euphoric feelings and better sleep.

 

[haidut]

I feel like the camphor is more effective than the one with just sfa and ethanol. More euphoric feelings and better sleep.

Excellent, thanks for the feedback! Do you feel the effects last longer than w/o camphor?

 

[LUH 3417]

Excellent, thanks for the feedback! Do you feel the effects last longer than w/o camphor?

Hmm I really can’t speak to duration but I definitely think the camphor increases the intensity of relaxation.

 

[goodandevil]

No worries, just saying that posting more objective information is more helpful to gauge risk. Peat has also spoken favorably about camphor.
Yes, if there is camphor in the bottle than the label will say it. Some of the product pages may not be all up to date so the label is always the most reliable source as this is what the customer gets and what FDA cares about.

I dont like how you bully people that ask simple questions about your products @haidut, nor do I like how you use ray's name at the same time, as though he endorses your product. That's probably why he doesnt like to respond to your emails. You offer valuable compounds that can't be obtained elsewhere, but you're not joe objective when it comes to your own interests.

 

[haidut]

I dont like how you bully people that ask simple questions about your products @haidut, nor do I like how you use ray's name at the same time, as though he endorses your product. That's probably why he doesnt like to respond to your emails. You offer valuable compounds that can't be obtained elsewhere, but you're not joe objective when it comes to your own interests.

Not sure where exactly did you see bullying, where nobody else did, including the comment poster...But let's ask the OP just to confirm. Hey @TreasureVibe - did you feel my response was bullying in any way?
All I said is that it is better to provide objective and verifiable information than fearmonger based on blog posts with no references. Maybe I overreacted a bit but still, all I did was ask for objective criticism instead of FUD. I provided one good review of camphor safety/toxicity. It quantifies what is dangerous/safe exposure for both adults and humans and the amount in an entire bottle of Progestene is less than what would be considered dangerous for a baby. If you have references that camphor is dangerous in even smaller doses then please post here. Even better, if you have something from Peat on the topic I would love to hear/see it. Btw, here is a quote from Peat on camphor. How am I mis-using his name by simply re-stating what he said in one of his articles?
The problem of Alzheimer's disease as a clue to immortality Part 1
"...Things that act directly on the water structure: I think all of the natural regulators have an effect on the structure of water, but some unusual substances seem to act primarily on the water. Noble gases, for example, have no chemical effects, but they tend to form "cages" of water molecules around themselves. Camphor, adamantane, and the antiviral drug amantadine, probably have a similar water-structuring effect, and amantadine, which is widely used as a therapy in Parkinson's disease, has an anti-excitotoxic action."

He also speaks VERY favorably of both camphor and its derivatives like adamantane/amantadine/etc in a few interviews in regards to Alzheimers. You can find them if you search for "camphor" in the LIGHT search engine.

Do you want to see true bullying? Check the link below. I would have posted the entire exchange here but there is so much profanity in there it would violate the ToS of this forum.
5a-dihydroprogesterone-5a-dhp-pro-hormone. without DMSO