Progest-e through the entire cycle?

[freyasam]

Is there any kind of guideline as to who should take Progest-e throughout the menstrual cycle, and who should take it only after ovulation?

I'm currently taking it from day 14 on, but especially around ovulation I need SO MUCH (like today I probably took 1/4 of the bottle) to keep symptoms at bay. I was thinking maybe I should take a little pre-ovulation too. But I think I did that the first few months on PE and I don't recall it making a big difference.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I think I've heard Ray Peat say on the radio that if you take a larger dose, try and do it consistently the whole month to avoid extensions or reductions of certain phases.

 

[Sheila]

Hello Freyasam
Experiences seem to vary a bit, but if you take it through the cycle, some get a shorter cycle, others stay at the same length and for others still it stops periods altogether until progest-e is withdrawn. I concur with S_S's recall that consistency is important, otherwise if the body senses a progesterone drop an early menstrual cycle is generally the result.
I'm not sure there is a guideline, it tends to be how you feel doing so and self experimentation plays a large part as we are all slightly different and continue to change month to month as our progress changes us. You might start with a reduced dose up to ovulation then continue through with more. I find B6 in small sub 20mg doses helpful here and also attention to adequate protein and simple carbs, vitamin A sources, as these appear critical to utilisation, ditto grated carrot for getting rid of the oestrogen you are trying to clear out. If you find progest-e seems to engender water retention, looking at the above but also salt levels seems useful. It would appear that progest-e wastes sodium. 1/2 tsp of salt before bed for a few nights and then sufficient to taste further on usually sorts this out, at least in my experience.
Best of luck
Sheila

 

[Blossom]

I think I've heard Ray Peat say on the radio that if you take a larger dose, try and do it consistently the whole month to avoid extensions or reductions of certain phases.

Yes I heard that too. Basically IIRC a person who uses Progest-e through the entire cycle should keep it at the same daily dose. In the same interview he mentioned adding a little t3 for excess estrogen symptoms. I believe it was one of the rainmaking radio shows.

 

[Blossom]

Hello Freyasam
Experiences seem to vary a bit, but if you take it through the cycle, some get a shorter cycle, others stay at the same length and for others still it stops periods altogether until progest-e is withdrawn. I concur with S_S's recall that consistency is important, otherwise if the body senses a progesterone drop an early menstrual cycle is generally the result.
I'm not sure there is a guideline, it tends to be how you feel doing so and self experimentation plays a large part as we are all slightly different and continue to change month to month as our progress changes us. You might start with a reduced dose up to ovulation then continue through with more. I find B6 in small sub 20mg doses helpful here and also attention to adequate protein and simple carbs, vitamin A sources, as these appear critical to utilisation, ditto grated carrot for getting rid of the oestrogen you are trying to clear out. If you find progest-e seems to engender water retention, looking at the above but also salt levels seems useful. It would appear that progest-e wastes sodium. 1/2 tsp of salt before bed for a few nights and then sufficient to taste further on usually sorts this out, at least in my experience.
Best of luck
Sheila

Those are great points on the many things we can do to help balance hormones Sheila!

 

[freyasam]

Cool, thanks for the advice everyone.

I definitely couldn't afford to take PE the whole month at the rate I'm taking it now at ovulation (like a bottle every four days!), and that probably wouldn't be healthy anyway. But maybe I can at least take a few drops daily pre-ovulation.

It's frustrating because I know this issue of the ravenous appetite and anxiety around ovulation wouldn't be an issue if I could just tolerate thyroid, but for some reason I get crazy adrenalin symptoms whenever I try to take any thyroid meds, even tiny slivers of them.

 

[Sheila]

I wonder if it's low blood sugar caused by oestrogen excess - there will likely come a point, if it is, at which no matter how much progesterone you use you won't make a difference because you still need fuel to allow its utilisation and processing (liver). I used to get this and ravenously eat bread all day which I never used to touch (this was a long time ago) and now I realise that it was low blood sugar (thence made worse by starch but never mind) driving the bus. Are you sure you have sufficient carbs in your diet? Magnesium and B6 may also be helpful here, I hope it is for you too.
Sheila

 

[freyasam]

Thanks Sheila, yes I am getting 300-400 gm of carbs per day (probably closer to 400 on these days of constant hunger). What doses of magnesium and B6 did you find to help you? I'm at 600 mg Mag glycinate and 10 mg B6 (as P5P).

 

[Sheila]

If that is the case, utilisation would appear to be the issue. Check fats and protein levels also. Carbs with fat might get you through longer.
I used Kirkman mag glycinate (allegedly) 100mg 1-3x as needed, and 12.5mg B6 (1/4 of 50mg tab) 3x day. I'm not sure one dose will do it for long, little and often appears better with the Bs.
Best of luck, Sheila

 

[aguilaroja]

...I definitely couldn't afford to take PE the whole month at the rate I'm taking it now at ovulation (like a bottle every four days!), and that probably wouldn't be healthy anyway. ...

I am asking to see if I understand the report, and rough arithmetic. One bottle of Progest-E every four days would be about 7 mL of oil per day, roughly 140 drops if there are roughly 20 drops per mL. At 3 mg per drop, the approximate daily amount would be 420 mg.

It would be expected most or all of that amount, if the arithmetic is in the ballpark, is applied to the skin. I have not encountered anyone who would stay awake taking a quarter of that quantity applied to the gums. Again, if the report is understood, these are very large quantities.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I think the point would be to spread it out throughout the month so as to (supposedly) not have that huge need for it when the phase comes.

 

[johns74]

Through the skin would be a bad idea. It will drip to your bloodstream months after stopping application should you want to stop for whatever reason.

 

[tara]

...I definitely couldn't afford to take PE the whole month at the rate I'm taking it now at ovulation (like a bottle every four days!), and that probably wouldn't be healthy anyway. ...

I am asking to see if I understand the report, and rough arithmetic. One bottle of Progest-E every four days would be about 7 mL of oil per day, roughly 140 drops if there are roughly 20 drops per mL. At 3 mg per drop, the approximate daily amount would be 420 mg.

It would be expected most or all of that amount, if the arithmetic is in the ballpark, is applied to the skin. I have not encountered anyone who would stay awake taking a quarter of that quantity applied to the gums. Again, if the report is understood, these are very large quantities.

I've pretty sure I've taken ~100+ mg in a day at times (~30+ drops)via my gums without falling asleep except when I intended to at night. I take less than that every day, but sometimes increase to try to interrupt symptoms. Not to say 420mg isn't a lot. Doesn't it just mean there is a lot of estrogen to oppose?
Would taking a smaller amount throughout the month likely mean the peak wouldn't get so high?

 

[freyasam]

Yeah, I'm taking very large quantities of PE, and I'm taking it orally. My body goes into crisis around ovulation, and progest-e is the only thing that helps. It's pretty miserable, and lasts up to two weeks. I actually look forward to my period.

I did take it month-long and I still needed large quantities around ovulation, but maybe I needed slightly less back then. Now that I no longer live in the US, it's much harder to get PE and other supplements. :/

When I was taking Armour last year, this issue wasn't as severe. But I can't seem to tolerate thyroid meds anymore, unfortunately. I would have thought that 10 months of Peating would have helped more with these symptoms.

 

[johns74]

I would try taking vitamin E to see if it allows a smaller dose of progesterone. Vitamin E and progesterone have similar effects. The two best products I think are 4spectrum and Carlson E-Gems Plus. Progest-E has vitamin E but possibly only alpha tocopherol, while the products I mentioned also contain gamma tocopherol.

 

[freyasam]

Interesting, thank you johns74. I actually just took some Lotioncrafter vitamin E, about 600 mg, which has mixed tocopherols, thinking that maybe the E in Progest-e was what I needed high doses of. Until now I hadn't been taking vitamin E after ovulation because I figured I was getting enough in the progest-e, but I will try taking it throughout the month. Thanks!

 

[aguilaroja]

Through the skin would be a bad idea. It will drip to your bloodstream months after stopping application should you want to stop for whatever reason.

I was not not advocating very large quantities of bio-identical progesterone transdermally. I concur with the general notion that prolonged application of large amounts to the skin would create reservoirs whose release would be hard to predict, uneven, and potentially long lasting, even if not intended to last.

My experience is that extremely special care is needed in using large amounts and even more so if using mainly the transdermal routes.

 

[freyasam]

So what is the safe upper limit for progest-e?

 

[Sheila]

Per magnesium Freyasam, a little more information below which may assist from the transcript of KMUD Nitric Oxide soon to be posted:

"HD: OK, alright, I had a question from a person who wrote to me who said they were unable to call in because they were outside the country and by the time I responded to them to ask them what country they were in it was probably too late. And I have come across this from other people anyway also in our own practice and working with you, I think I understand the situation but I would like to hear it from you. It was a woman that said she had hypothyroidism, symptoms including depression, weight gain, cold hands and feet, dry hair and skin, her TSH (her thyroid stimulating hormone) was 1.6 which wasn't super high but I know you want it to be as close to zero as possible and her T3 was 3.5. She said she used to take Armour thyroid, she was prescribed this by a Doctor and it helped with symptoms for a few months but she said that when she tried to supplement with T3 or a T3/T4 combination she developed anxiety and tachycardia. She said she's experimented with doses as small even as 1mg of T3 and she said it would send her into a hyperthyroid type state, I think that's kind of anxiety and palpitations, and it maybe an adrenalin thing and she said is there anything she can do to better tolerate thyroid supplementation. She was currently taking zinc gluconate, Vitamin D, Vitamin K, she's using 4000iu of Vitamin D, she's using Progest-e the second half of her menstrual cycle, aspirin, magnesium and calcium. She also eats liver, weekly. What do you think might cause that in a person who previously might have used thyroid but then suddenly becomes what they call sensitive to it and unable to use it?

RP: Sometimes I think it's that the product has changed. European forms of thyroid supplement seem to be very unpredictable, but if it's for sure the same product, then usually a magnesium deficiency can cause exactly those symptoms because the thyroid makes your cells able to use magnesium and so take it up, but a big organ like your skeletal muscles and bones can take up so much from your blood that your brain and heart have trouble getting the magnesium they need to respond to the thyroid, and then you get an exaggerated stress and adrenalin reaction. Low cholesterol is another limiting factor, if you have very low cholesterol you can't respond to increasing your thyroid because one of the basic functions of the thyroid is to turn cholesterol in to progesterone, pregnenolone and DHEA.

HD: OK, so what kind of dose of magnesium would you think for that kind of person would be suitable?

RP: About 100mg at a time as you take the say 1-2 mcg of cytomel, or cynomel. 100mg will be plenty for the first 2 or 3 hours of responding to 1 or 2 micrograms.

HD: I looked earlier on as I was doing some searching around and saw that the main principle sources of magnesium were nuts and seeds, and I think there were small amounts in soy, but I think principally what would you recommend as a good magnesium source?

RP: Fruit juices and coffee. If you want a really intense source you can boil leaves like kale or beet greens or something for two or three minutes, the green water that comes out quickly is very concentrated in magnesium and calcium. That's a very, pretty safe supplement. Coffee and fruit juices are practical and something you can do every day."

 

[freyasam]

Thank you Sheila.

That was actually my question that I emailed to KMUD. :) Unfortunately, the question wasn't read as I wrote it, because my question had to do with why I cannot tolerate thyroid ever since taking iodine. My sudden intolerance of Armour had nothing to do with the formulation change, as that happened years before I ever took it. The problem is that I'm sensitive to iodine, and of course all thyroid medications contain iodine since it's part of the chemical structure of thyroid hormone. I've written Peat directly about this but he doesn't seem to know what to advise.

In any case, I've tried magnesium supplements and broth from greens taken at the same time as the thyroid, and it makes no difference.

Just say no to iodine! It really screwed me up and I have yet to find any suggestions on the internet or from the many doctors and practitioners I've seen about how to treat hypothyroidism for the iodine sensitive.