Progest-e Or Not Progest-e, That Is The Question

Nikki

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I hope someone knowledgeable will revisit this thread and adress my confusion.

I manage a colony of oviparous herbivorous (or mostly so) research subjects. When I feed them clover, they reproduce far more quickly and successfully. Is the estrogenic quality of the clover promoting ova production and embryo survival?

The failure to hatch when I deprive them of clover is nearly 100%. The thrive factor for eggs laid by clover-eating mothers who receive clover as about 15% of the diet is nearly 100%.

I will not disclose the species because I don't want anyone using clover to create breeding machines. I discovered this by accident. I didn't want more of these subjects. I had more than I could manage for a while. I stopped clover for months and egg production slowed significantly. All eggs which were produced, failed to hatch. When I reintroduced just a small amount of clover (2% of diet), they laid a higher number of eggs again, but these did not hatch. I have reduced clover to an occasional treat because they love it more than anything else, it seems. Is it truly an abortifacient? Or, is it the opposite?
 
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lollipop

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I hope someone knowledgeable will revisit this thread and adress my confusion.

I manage a colony of oviparous herbivorous (or mostly so) research subjects. When I feed them clover, they reproduce far more quickly and successfully. Is the estrogenic quality of the clover promoting ova production and embryo survival?

The failure to hatch when I deprive them of clover is nearly 100%. The thrive factor for eggs laid by clover-eating mothers who receive clover as about 15% of the diet is nearly 100%.

I will not disclose the species because I don't want anyone using clover to create breeding machines. I discovered this by accident. I didn't want more of these subjects. I had more than I could manage for a while. I stopped clover for months and egg production slowed significantly. All eggs which were produced, failed to hatch. When I reintroduced just a small amount of clover (2% of diet), they laid a higher number of eggs again, but these did not hatch. I have reduced clover to an occasional treat because they love it more than anything else, it seems. Is it truly an abortifacient? Or, is it the opposite?
@Ella any thoughts here?
 

Ella

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Is the estrogenic quality of the clover promoting ova production and embryo survival?

Both testosterone and estradiol is required prior to ovulation. Estradiol starts to rise 18 - 20 hrs before ovulation. A rise in Progesterone is not seen before the preovulatory rise in LH secretion - 8 hours before ovulation. After reaching a preovulatory maximum, plasma levels of progesterone fall back to baseline levels by the time of ovulation.

failure to hatch when I deprive them of clover is nearly 100%. The thrive factor for eggs laid by clover-eating mothers who receive clover as about 15% of the diet is nearly 100%.

What is the rest of their diet made up of? Perhaps they are not producing adequate levels of testosterone and need to rely on a steady supply of estrogenic plants like clover.

The clover is also very mineral rich and may be furnishing the diet with minerals they are not getting from what is available to them.

Are they getting plenty of meat in the diet? If you are relying on worms, they can quickly rid the worm population.

I have reduced clover to an occasional treat because they love it more than anything else, it seems. Is it truly an abortifacient? Or, is it the opposite?

I think if they are given a variety of mixed greens, they are plenty smart in working it out for themselves. Free-ranging birds need more than just greens though. Like humans, they need good quality and sufficient protein. With adequate protein, the liver is able to excrete estrogens efficiently.

I would be careful with clover though due to its estrogenicity. In the same way estrogen promotes cancer in humans, too much is problematic for animals. The following is an article on a particular breed of white Leghorn female chickens who are hyperestrogenemia and hypoprogesteronemia.

Like humans a delicate balancing act.

The restricted ovulator chicken strain: An oviparous vertebrate model of reproductive dysfunction caused by a gene defect affecting an oocyte-specific receptor
 

Nikki

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This colony would eat 100% clover if I let them, I think. The also like fresh grass (wheat/alfalfa/oat) but won't eat kale, spinach and other things they are supposed to like. When clover was withdrawn, grass was substituted. I suppose the grass could be causing the eggs not to thrive, but when grass and clover are given in combination, there is still a boost in egg production/survival.

As for mineral content, both the clover and grass are grown in the same or very similar conditions. I wouldn't expect a huge diference in mineral profile, but I have no idea how selective plants are about their mineral intake.

The balance of the diet is organic millet. The won't eat any other seed.
 

Dierlief87

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[QUOTE = "alywest, bericht: 296860, lid: 5919"] Dus ik denk dat ik iemand ben tegengekomen die erop wees dat Progest-e niet goed is, en dat is de reden waarom RP wegliep van het bedrijf Kenogen ondanks het feit dat hij patent had op de proces van het oplossen van het progesteron in vitamine e. Dat lijkt een behoorlijk belangrijke stap om te nemen en ik ben verrast dat mensen op dit forum nog steeds Progest-E kopen. Dus als ik me afvroeg wat in het product niet goed is, zou RP zo weglopen en zag ik dat ze besloten om 'soja-isoflavonen' te gebruiken.

Hier is een citaat van RP:

De oestrogene eigenschappen van peulvruchten werden bestudeerd toen schapenboeren ontdekten dat hun schapen miskraamden als ze klaver aten. (Ik vind het interessant hoe dit vreselijk toxische effect de afgelopen decennia is verwaarloosd.) Alle peulvruchten hebben deze eigenschap en alle delen van de plant lijken een deel van de actieve chemicaliën te bevatten. In bonen zijn verschillende stoffen gevonden die bijdragen aan het effect. De oestrogene effecten van de zaadoliën en de isoflavonen zijn het meest bestudeerd, maar de bekende antithyroid-acties (opnieuw met betrekking tot de oliën, de isoflavonen en andere moleculen die worden gevonden in peulvruchten) hebben een indirecte oestrogeenbevorderende werking, omdat hypothyreoïdie leidt tot hyperestrogenisme. (Van oestrogenen is bekend dat ze schildklieronderdrukkers zijn, dus het probleem is meestal zelfversnellend.) (Natuurlijke oestrogenen )

Hmmm, lijkt een beetje contra-intuïtief om een oestrogeen product in een progesteronolie te gebruiken. Toen ik PRogest-e gebruikte had ik veel pijn in de borst, maar ik schreef het toe aan de oestrogenen die uit mijn weefsels werden losgemaakt. Nu ik een andere olie gebruik, heb ik geen pijn in de borsten en voel ik dat ik betere vooruitgang boek in het herstellen van de balans tussen progesteron en oestrogeen.

Gedachten? [/ QUOTE]
 

ebs

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Does anyone know why the Progest-E is best stored in the refrigerator while the Simple Progesterone by Health Natura can be stored at room temperature, even though both seem to contain the same ingredients?

The latter claims that products that need to be stored in the refrigerator contain ingredients that can go rancid, while the seller of Progest-E states that it's the vitamin E that is sensative to light and temperature.
 
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Tenacity

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Does anyone know why the Progest-E is best stored in the refrigerator while the Simple Progesterone by Health Natura can be stored at room temperature, even though both seem to contain the same ingredients?

The latter claims that products that need to be stored in the refrigerator contain ingredients that can go rancid, while the seller of Progest-E states that it's the vitamin E that is sensative to light and temperature.
The vitamin E in Progest-E does go rancid over time, but it takes a long time if it's in a cool, dark place. I've had a bottle open for about five months now and it's still good, without refrigeration. I keep bottles in the fridge until I'm ready to use them.
 

ebs

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The vitamin E in Progest-E does go rancid over time, but it takes a long time if it's in a cool, dark place. I've had a bottle open for about five months now and it's still good, without refrigeration. I keep bottles in the fridge until I'm ready to use them.

Thanks for replying. But vitamin E is vitamin E isn't it? How can there be a difference between the two products that one needs to be stored in a cool place but the other can be stored at room temperature which is what I don't get. It seems to me that either one of the sellers isn't completely honest about their ingredients.

I was opting for Haidut's Progestene but the other two are more suitable to use on the face (ethanol vs. vitamin E).
 

Tenacity

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Thanks for replying. But vitamin E is vitamin E isn't it? How can there be a difference between the two products that one needs to be stored in a cool place but the other can be stored at room temperature which is what I don't get. It seems to me that either one of the sellers isn't completely honest about their ingredients.

I was opting for Haidut's Progestene but the other two are more suitable to use on the face (ethanol vs. vitamin E).
I had a bottle of Progest-e opened unrefrigerated for about three quarters of a year, and while the progesterone still worked I could taste that the vitamin E had gone rancid by the end of the bottle. My gut feeling is that if you want the product to last many months or even years, it needs to be refrigerated. You're right, vitamin E is vitamin E, so for best results I would imagine you should refrigerate the Health Natura product, but I've never used it so I don't know for sure.
 

healthnatura

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Depends on your philosophy.
Thanks for replying. But vitamin E is vitamin E isn't it? How can there be a difference between the two products that one needs to be stored in a cool place but the other can be stored at room temperature which is what I don't get. It seems to me that either one of the sellers isn't completely honest about their ingredients.
I was opting for Haidut's Progestene but the other two are more suitable to use on the face (ethanol vs. vitamin E).

I would like to address why we don't recommend refrigerating opened bottles of Simply Progesterone or any of our oil based products. IF a refrigerated bottle is opened and closed on a regular basis moisture will build up in the bottle and cause the product to go rancid very quickly. I believe we use superior ingredients in our Simply Progesterone formula, not all materials are created equal. The freshness of the ingredients at the time of manufacture and the source material for the ingredient matter very much. We only order the freshest batches from our suppliers just before we are ready to make a batch. Here is how we compare to Progest E.

Simply Progesterone
Mixed tocopherols -- We start with the most stable 95% concentrate mixed tocopherols. This type of mixed tocopherols is the most stable form. We use this form, from the same source every time.

Progest E label -- d-alpha tocopherol &/or mixed tocopherols (vitamin E). D-alpha tocopherol is not very stable at room temperature. Inconsistencies and possible changes from batch to batch. D-alpha tocopherol behaves less effectively as a transdermal carrier compared to the balanced spectrum found in mixed tocopherols.

Simply Progesterone
MCT (medium chain triglycerides) from coconut. -- MCT from coconut oil is the most stable oil base available because it resists rancidity, even extreme heat conditions. This property means that MCT doesn't attract oxygen into the solution and helps protect other ingredients from oxidizing.

Progest E label -- Vegetable triglycerides (plant-based, sourced from either olive or coconut). Plain old oil. Not refined MCT oil.

Simply Progesterone: We use pharmaceutical grade USP progesterone derived from wild yam.
Progest E label - Hopefully they are using a high grade USP progesterone.

Simply Progesterone has our extra touch:
Glass for superior purity.
Oxygen shielding from start to finish with argon gas to guarantee minimal oxygen exposure till the day you open the bottle.

Superior stability. Using only the highest quality ingredients that are designed to be self preserving at room temperature. Do not refrigerate to prevent moisture build up, which will spoil the product.

We are not trying to push our product over any others, we just wanted to address the comments in this thread. We hope that the above comparison helps to explain the differences between our Simply Progesterone and Progest E.
 

tallglass13

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@healthnatura , I was looking for the progesterone clear, with alcohol base you use to have , good for scalp, not greasy dries fast. What happened to that?
 

RealNeat

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Thanks for replying. But vitamin E is vitamin E isn't it? How can there be a difference between the two products that one needs to be stored in a cool place but the other can be stored at room temperature which is what I don't get. It seems to me that either one of the sellers isn't completely honest about their ingredients.

I was opting for Haidut's Progestene but the other two are more suitable to use on the face (ethanol vs. vitamin E).

The packaging is different. A dropper bottle like Progest E has less of a chance to build up moisture and only goes to extend the life of the product, while a tincture type bottle kept refrigerated and repeatedly opened can build up more moisture as the surface are of exposed material is larger. If one is really concerned about preservation get rid of those nasty LED lights in your fridge.
 

ken

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Is Simply Progesterone's vitamin e from soy like al the others.
 

CuriousKay

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I never thought that such a small amount of soy isoflavones could make such a difference but I gave the other stuff a go and had none of the tenderness in the breasts or mood swings. Cellulite I'm working on with pregnenalone.

Anyways, class action lawsuit against Kenogen, anyone?o_O:hammer:
Do you take pregnenolone topically? Which brand? I am trying to decrease my cellulite too.
 

proteome

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I recently emailed Dr Peat because of my interest in progesterone..

Am looking for the "right" Progesterone for my aging body...is this it?

Dr. Peat's Progest E Oil Complex, 34 ml

His reply...

That’s the right (I think the only good) progesterone product. You can also get it directly from the producer, Kenogen: [email protected].
Rich (BB code):
I think the previous posts mentioned that Kenogen now makes this with soy isoflavones.

I'd rather avoid too much soy, since it can interfere estrogenically with hormone balance in men.


Never mind: Progest-E Retraction Of Statement
 

proteome

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Do you take pregnenolone topically? Which brand? I am trying to decrease my cellulite too.

@CuriousKay, I don't think you can take it topically with a good degree of absorption. At least, not according to my own research, but I didn't have good controls or a regular protocol in place.

Have you tried it?
 

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