Progest-e Or Not Progest-e, That Is The Question

[Peaterpeater]

Wow, I didn't know that Kenegan's Progest-e is derived from soy. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I also had some very mixed results using Progest E. A few times I used it, it worked well and even helped my libido (when taken with Aspirin & Caffeine). It also gave me the face-lift effect while other times it made my face and breasts swell and also made my breast very tender/sore. I wondered if it was actually converting to estrogen. Is it possible that under some circumstances the Progesterone will convert/go down the androgen pathway while other times it goes down the Cortisol/Estrogen pathway? I too have gained a "TON" of cellulite in the past few years while using Progest-e and I can only assume that it's due to it converting to Estrogen. Can someone chime in and let me know what you think might have happened?

 

[alywest]

Wow, I didn't know that Kenegan's Progest-e is derived from soy. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I also had some very mixed results using Progest E. A few times I used it, it worked well and even helped my libido (when taken with Aspirin & Caffeine). It also gave me the face-lift effect while other times it made my face and breasts swell and also made my breast very tender/sore. I wondered if it was actually converting to estrogen. Is it possible that under some circumstances the Progesterone will convert/go down the androgen pathway while other times it goes down the Cortisol/Estrogen pathway? I too have gained a "TON" of cellulite in the past few years while using Progest-e and I can only assume that it's due to it converting to Estrogen. Can someone chime in and let me know what you think might have happened?

I don't think that the progesterone is turning into soy as the progesterone itself is not derived from soy, it's apparently the vitamin e that is used in the product. Supposedly (according to Long Natural Health) it's not supposed to be a concern because there is no soy protein in it, however, I don't actually believe that because too many people have reported adverse results, including myself. What I experienced with it was mood swings and really sore breasts. Some women didn't experience this, so my thinking is that we have a stronger reaction to the particular soy that is in the product. I was doing some research apparently a lot of people experience allergic reactions to soy-derived vitamin e. In cereals and such it's called "tocopherol acetate." It's a cheaply derived vitamin e and I'm not sure why Kenogen would use such a crappy ingredient. I have called the company and left a message with customer service. I'll update if they respond.

 

[LUH 3417]

I don't think that the progesterone is turning into soy as the progesterone itself is not derived from soy, it's apparently the vitamin e that is used in the product. Supposedly (according to Long Natural Health) it's not supposed to be a concern because there is no soy protein in it, however, I don't actually believe that because too many people have reported adverse results, including myself. What I experienced with it was mood swings and really sore breasts. Some women didn't experience this, so my thinking is that we have a stronger reaction to the particular soy that is in the product. I was doing some research apparently a lot of people experience allergic reactions to soy-derived vitamin e. In cereals and such it's called "tocopherol acetate." It's a cheaply derived vitamin e and I'm not sure why Kenogen would use such a crappy ingredient. I have called the company and left a message with customer service. I'll update if they respond.

Thank you so much for calling and posting here. It's good to know this information either way.

 

[alywest]

Thank you so much for calling and posting here. It's good to know this information either way.

Well as Dr. Peat himself says it's good to know what things give you a reaction and with all the industrial ingredients in foods now it's almost impossible to decipher. This might be a clue for some of us. The thing that bothers me is that Dr. Peat's name is all over this product. I'm going to confront them and ask if he is or not, and if he's not then they need to stop using his name like he stands behind the product. And if I don't get straight answers from them I'm going to ask him directly.

 

[LUH 3417]

Well as Dr. Peat himself says it's good to know what things give you a reaction and with all the industrial ingredients in foods now it's almost impossible to decipher. This might be a clue for some of us. The thing that bothers me is that Dr. Peat's name is all over this product. I'm going to confront them and ask if he is or not, and if he's not then they need to stop using his name like he stands behind the product. And if I don't get straight answers from them I'm going to ask him directly.

I could of sworn I saw someone's copied correspondence somewhere in forum where they asked him about kenogen via email and he said he no longer had any affiliations with them. I didn't save the post though :/

 

[Dhair]

Well as Dr. Peat himself says it's good to know what things give you a reaction and with all the industrial ingredients in foods now it's almost impossible to decipher. This might be a clue for some of us. The thing that bothers me is that Dr. Peat's name is all over this product. I'm going to confront them and ask if he is or not, and if he's not then they need to stop using his name like he stands behind the product. And if I don't get straight answers from them I'm going to ask him directly.

I think you should just email Ray regardless of what they say.

 

[alywest]

I think you should just email Ray regardless of what they say.

Yes you're probably right. I'm curious if their answers will be similar, so I was kind of hoping to speak to Kenogen (seems to be one person) and then go back and talk to RP based on what they say. I think if I don't hear from them by the end of the day today I'll go ahead and contact him. Lots of people online (not just on this forum) report similar issues from soy derived e. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a China imported ingredient, and perhaps that's why around 2014 people started saying it tastes different, smells different, and has different effects.

 

[HDD]

I could of sworn I saw someone's copied correspondence somewhere in forum where they asked him about kenogen via email and he said he no longer had any affiliations with them. I didn't save the post though :/

I recall him talking about it in one of the interviews. IIRC, he had to stop being involved in selling progesterone due to legal issues?

@alywest
Progest-E purchased directly from Kenogen does not have Ray Peat's name on the label.

 

[alywest]

I recall him talking about it in one of the interviews. IIRC, he had to stop being involved in selling progesterone due to legal issues?

@alywest
Progest-E purchased directly from Kenogen does not have Ray Peat's name on the label.

An email exchange I had with Long Natural made it sound like RP was still involved but then they changed their tune when I confronted them with the fact directly. I don't doubt that he is not openly involved but I am wondering about his current involvement as he is still recommending the product to people who contact him for help.

 

[alywest]

The thing I really don't get is why use a sub-par source of vitamin e when people are clearly willing to pay a little extra for a decent product (health natura, forefront health, etc.) My guess is that they make the product for pennies on the dollar and they have a loyal customer base and don't want to raise the price too much for fear of losing some of that so they've continued raising the price along with the market but they're still slightly cheaper, and the only way they can do it is by using the absolutely cheapest vitamin e they can find. And the loyal customer base doesn't want to complain too much because they fear that they are doing something wrong, like taking the wrong dose or that progesterone is just not for them, or whatever. They are blaming themselves for the shortcomings of the product when in reality it's the crappy ingredients.

 

[HDD]

I recall him talking about it in one of the interviews. IIRC, he had to stop being involved in selling progesterone due to legal issues?

@alywest
Progest-E purchased directly from Kenogen does not have Ray Peat's name on the label.

This was what I was referring to/

RAY PEAT: When I was dealing with the FDA at various times they said that they looked at my books and said those are federal crimes because you have a patent and so they didn’t prosecute me for writing the books about it, but they said that I couldn’t say anything good about progesterone.

Regarding his involvement/

RAY PEAT: And that eventually became its own product, but I wasn’t connected with it after, I guess, 1979 was when I stopped being involved with any real company. Then I got friends to gradually develop their own business. And seeing what this other person had done with the FDA and how it’s basically sort of a crony system, I suggested that they just sell it to the doctors who were already interested in it and then those doctors would over the years tell their friends, and so there was never anything said about progesterone while the people who took it over Kenogen, for example

(This is from transcript, I'm going to listen to it and see what he's saying in the last sentence.)


Regarding his name being attached to it/

RAY PEAT: Oh, I don’t remember when that started but they got that out of John Lee's books and so I don’t remember when his books made it famous but that’s where they got attached my name to it which that weren’t supposed to be but John Lee described it as Ray Peat’s progesterone until that’s what the customers wanted and so these places like Vitamin Express attached my name to it.

Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 2

 

[alywest]

This was what I was referring to/

RAY PEAT: When I was dealing with the FDA at various times they said that they looked at my books and said those are federal crimes because you have a patent and so they didn’t prosecute me for writing the books about it, but they said that I couldn’t say anything good about progesterone.

Regarding his involvement/

RAY PEAT: And that eventually became its own product, but I wasn’t connected with it after, I guess, 1979 was when I stopped being involved with any real company. Then I got friends to gradually develop their own business. And seeing what this other person had done with the FDA and how it’s basically sort of a crony system, I suggested that they just sell it to the doctors who were already interested in it and then those doctors would over the years tell their friends, and so there was never anything said about progesterone while the people who took it over Kenogen, for example

(This is from transcript, I'm going to listen to it and see what he's saying in the last sentence.)


Regarding his name being attached to it/

RAY PEAT: Oh, I don’t remember when that started but they got that out of John Lee's books and so I don’t remember when his books made it famous but that’s where they got attached my name to it which that weren’t supposed to be but John Lee described it as Ray Peat’s progesterone until that’s what the customers wanted and so these places like Vitamin Express attached my name to it.

Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 2

Wow this is really interesting, thank you

 

[alywest]

@HDD when I said that was an interesting interview I was pretty much making the understatement of the year. Freaking FASCINATING! Excellent find. Thank you!!!!

 

[HDD]

@HDD when I said that was an interesting interview I was pretty much making the understatement of the year. Freaking FASCINATING! Excellent find. Thank you!!!!

Yes, all three interviews on progesterone that he did with them are! I find myself reading them over again when I'm searching for something. I love the ability to search the audio interviews on l-i-g-h-t.com and that they have transcriptions of all of his interviews.

 

[papaya]

Yeah but he says that carrot, cooked bamboo shoots and cooked mushrooms are the ones that he recommends for the purpose of keeping the gut clear. And that is connected to liver health. Every once in a while I enjoy a nice salad with various types of leaves like arugula and dandelion, though. Have you looked into Lita Lee's enzymes at all? It's a bit too pricey for me to have the consultation and all that or I would do it, but she talks about a lot of the things you do and she has the enzyme formulations to help with things like cleansing impurities from the blood and improving bile flow and all that. I think what she says makes sense and she will quote RP on certain things but she's not strictly adhering to everything he says.

I'm in a precarious place health wise and the only thing that has helped me get out of a really deep pit of sickness is to do some of the things RP suggests, and the first thing was getting my thyroid supplementation straight. I notice whenever I'm getting agitated it's because thyroid is not adequate and therefore blood sugar is off, etc. Progesterone has been the next major thing besides nutrition, and I'm disappointed that Progest-E uses ingredients that actually set me back because of sensitivities I have (apparently.) I guess it's good to know how sensitive I am to soy isoflavones, though, and I will be much more cautious with anything that has soy ingredients (ie. lecithin). I like olive oil, too, and definitely prefer it for a dressing. My cholesterol has lowered a lot since getting my thyroid working, so I try to load up on saturated fats, but for the most part I prefer butter! But I use coconut oil sometimes for cooking or I'll swish it in my mouth for five minutes.

what thyroid supplement/dose do you use? have you looked into ona's progesterone products? they're all natural & high doses. i ordered it but only used it a couple of times so i don't have anything to really report.

 

[alywest]

what thyroid supplement/dose do you use? have you looked into ona's progesterone products? they're all natural & high doses. i ordered it but only used it a couple of times so i don't have anything to really report.

I actually have been using tyronene, the t3 only one, with good results. I have to be pretty on top of it because you have to take it several times a day, but it's worth it. Idealab's stuff is very pure so I love that. Ona's looks like a decent brand... another company that seems to understand that non-soy derived vitamin e is important. I think that one sounds high quality.

 

[ddjd]

3 pages later.

what is the greatest progesterones of them all?

 

[alywest]

3 pages later.

what is the greatest progesterones of them all?

The only thing I would want to avoid is the soy-derived vitamin e personally. some people apparently don't have a problem with that though. The main thing is that progesterone shouldn't cause any sort of negative side effects, so if the supplement is causing side effect it's probably something else in the product.

 

[ddjd]

The only thing I would want to avoid is the soy-derived vitamin e personally. some people apparently don't have a problem with that though. The main thing is that progesterone shouldn't cause any sort of negative side effects, so if the supplement is causing side effect it's probably something else in the product.

which one did you buy then?

 

[alywest]

which one did you buy then?

I have been getting the forefront health brand, however I'm thinking about switching to health natura because it's a bit cheaper and seems to have comparable ingredients. For me the best method of use seems to be the gums in vitamin e solution.