Progest-E For Teenager

Spondive

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[ moderator edit: posts moved from Progesterone And Depression ]


Thanks Lindsay...does anybody have thoughts on a 13 year old that has not had first period and supplementing progesterone for emotional instability and severe ocd
 

lindsay

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Spondive said:
Thanks Lindsay...does anybody have thoughts on a 13 year old that has not had first period and supplementing progesterone for emotional instability and severe ocd

Well first of all, I think it's much healthier for her that she is not menstruating yet. I started menstruation at a young age and I've had all sorts of reproductive health issues. I think it's better to begin menstruation at a later age.

I think I would consider emailing Ray Peat and asking him about the progesterone. I wouldn't want to interfere with her internal hormonal clock. At such a young age, perhaps it is worth considering what kind of stress levels she is under? And does she have a good diet? I suffered my first eating disorder shortly after that age - it is a difficult time, becoming a teenager. All sorts of weird things happen in the body which take a toll on emotions. I think with the right emotional and nutritional support, the difficulties can be eased.

I'm still a bit OCD (I'm always checking to make sure I turned off the stove, unplugging lights, etc.), but I no longer have the emotional instability that I used to. However, along with Progest-e, it also took a huge lifestyle change. I had to reduce my work load and let myself get R&R when I need it.

Just out of curiosity, is your daughter (sorry - I'm assuming it's family?) playing sports or under a lot of stress at school?
 
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Spondive

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My niece is in 8 th grade and has dance class apart from school which she loves. She has had mild ocd symptoms since 4 years old, but in last few months they have gotten severe. Obsessions about contamination of bodily fluids and hand washing for 2 hours at a time with extreme emotion and crying while doing it. She uses her feet to open doors drawers etc. I have her on high dose niacinamide and inositol. Started Prozac 20mg about 10 days ago. Emotional aspect has resolved and ocd is still there but washing episodes much less
 
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Spondive

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Also she was a straight A student and is now flunking tests etc because she can't finish her exams. For example other kids without ocd finish test in 1 hour and it takes her 3 days to finish the test. Her teachers know about her ocd and give her more time. Also it would take her so long to get out of the house because of her ocd rituals she started missing her dance class which she loves. She would be upset and cry because she missed her dance
 
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Spondive

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She knows that it is irrational but she says she can't help it and also I sense some teenage stubbornness
 

tara

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Spondive said:
Thanks Lindsay...does anybody have thoughts on a 13 year old that has not had first period and supplementing progesterone for emotional instability and severe ocd

My kids are boys and not yet that age, so I'm speculating without direct experience as a mother of a teenage girl - so you'll know a lot more about that than me. That said, here are some thoughts.

Personally, though I love progesterone, I'd first be wanting to see what can be accomplished by diet. I'd be a bit cautious about intervening with supplementary hormones before it is clear what the body's pattern will be.

What else have you tried before prozac? I'd be very wary of that - SSRIs supposedly work by increasing serotonin, too much of which can be very problematic. I'd rather use progesterone than SSRIs. I guess you've read Peat's article on serotonin?

I put some of my own teenage emotional issues down to an inadequate diet - hunger is stressful and messes with concentration. I could be pretty well relied on for a tantrum before breakfast at that age - if I'd got that first glass of milk in as soon as I woke up it might have been calmer in our house. We got a bowl of cereal for breakfast and a couple of sandwiches for lunch and a small snack. I was always hungry, and felt bad about craving sweets - thought I should overcome it, but failed. Never occurred to me then that part of the problem was not enough nourishing food.
There is also a lot to deal with as a teenage girl - social expectations etc can be crazy and impossible - so some emotional reaction to that is not surprising. Having you be able to listen relaxedly to what her life is like, and figure out how to get her laughing about anything with you may help too.

She needs lots to grow and develop at that age. A good nourishing breakfast and lunch that include a decent amount of protein and carbs (and morning and afternoon snacks), salt to taste, etc. Liver. Plenty of fruit and milk. Snacks. Juice or milk on rising and before bed, etc.

You've got a challenging job. Stay strong.
 

pboy

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spondive, I would take her off Prozac asap, and I wouldn't try progesterone either. At that time in her life, its crucial that she develops free of the influence of outside hormones and drugs. Prozac partially works by its having fluoride, which is a sedater of the mind...like a mild tranquilizer, it doesn't fix anything. You don't want her myellinating nerve pathways based on her body thinking life is how it is while taking strong chemical drugs.

You need to keep in mind how unnatural school is to a growing child of that age, all the restrictions and rules and theres a sublte feeling of killing peoples spirit by 'the adults'. Healthy children will rebel to an extent, because in their heart they know that what they are going through isn't right. Its best, as her parent, to support her in an independent way apart from what her teachers tell you, the school, the society. Have her know you have her back no matter what she feels, and be extremely open hearted and kind. Listen to her, let her let it all out. Give her quiet time. Make your home be filled with peaceful vibes. She knows what is going on, and doesn't feel safe to explain her feelings due to all the pressure from various authorities and school figures, maybe other girls her age, and its best if she doesn't feel that way about you too as her parent. I agree with all Tara wrote about making sure when you can, give her well balanced nourishing meals, with plenty of food...ask her what she likes, what she wants...make it calm, surprise her at how much youre willing to listen and consider her choices. The neurotic things are a manifestation of trapped and pent of angst. There has to be an outlet. Children are like a seed of a plant, you cannot force them to grow one way or another, or force them to be any particular thing. Their lifes pattern and blueprint is within them, and if it is to unfold and grow to its full potential, it needs peace, protection, and nourishment
 
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Spondive

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Thanks. We give her milk shakes with egg yolks. She drinks milk and has fruit and sugar. No liver or shellfish and she does eat what I would consider too much PUFA, but her family listens to me.
I don't like ssri either. I don't think it works by increasing serotonin, but it has been shown to increase allo pregnenalone and if they work at least partially it is because of that and possibly increasing the other monoamines. This is according to Dr Peat. I think the bad effects are due to the serotonin
 

tara

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Eggy milkshakes sound good.

Sorry, I mistook you for the mother, silly assumption. That limits your influence in some ways, but if you have relaxed attention for her and her parents, as well as advice, you can doubtless make a difference to them.

I like a lot of what pboy said above.

Some dancers can be under pressure to starve to maintain pre-pubescent shape - I hope that isn't happening for her - if it is, that could be a key part of the problem.

Saturated fats are good for myelinating nerves, right? If she is getting enough calories, protein, and a bit of sat. fat, consider B vitamins? Or magnesium? It's likely either she's not getting enough fuel and building materials, or there's a bottle neck in using them - could be a number of micronutrients. I bet some of the studies Haidut has posted would give some ideas.
Does she get out in the sun regularly?
If she's getting nutrients and sunlight, maybe learning some restrained breathing exercises could help, as a possible tool to calm herself when she needs it?
 

HDD

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I came across this by accident. Maybe a low dose children's liquid Benadryl could help.

Diphenhydramine can cause strong sedation and has also been used as an anxiolytic as a result.[10] It has also proven to have mild anti-obsessive effects in one study researching OCD medication. Originally intended to act as a control medication, it in fact produced a significant decrement in OCD symptoms.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphenhydramine


There is a circle of histamin, estrogen, melatonin and the other stress hormones which can be stopped using antihistamins.

My son has some OCD symptoms. He won't take Benadryl for treatment of it but does use it occasionally for sleep. He was having a particularly bad night recently and took Benadryl before bed. He was a different person the next day, so much, that he noticed it and told me he had taken Benadryl.
 

lindsay

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Spondive said:
My niece is in 8 th grade and has dance class apart from school which she loves. She has had mild ocd symptoms since 4 years old, but in last few months they have gotten severe. Obsessions about contamination of bodily fluids and hand washing for 2 hours at a time with extreme emotion and crying while doing it. She uses her feet to open doors drawers etc. I have her on high dose niacinamide and inositol. Started Prozac 20mg about 10 days ago. Emotional aspect has resolved and ocd is still there but washing episodes much less

I was thinking about your niece after I read what you wrote and it reminded me somewhat of myself when I was a child. When I was little, I had very bad nightmares and would sometimes sleepwalk - this occasionally led to an irrational fear of going to sleep when I was not at home, especially if I had heard other strange incidents of people sleepwalking through town.

I also developed a crazy fear of fire that I still have to this day - although it's not debilitating. I just get OCD about making sure the stove is off and certain things are unplugged. I also went through a weird hand washing phase when I was like 11 or 12 - to the point where my hands were practically bleeding from washing them too much with soap. Fortunately, I got over that and am the least germaphobic person I know at this point.

Anyhow, my point in telling you all this is that, OCD I think is pretty common and I think your niece will be fine over time. I think a lot of it (and I'm not pointing blame on anyone), has to do with the parents at home. My parents were very overly involved in certain aspects of my life. I was constantly being pushed into activities because they wanted me to participate - not because I wanted to. And there was always pressure on me to succeed at school, which can create an irrational sense of perfectionism. I was the prototype for Anorexia and I developed it in high school my freshman year - my parents didn't know how to handle that "imperfection" and I don't think they handled it well, although they meant the best and were just scared. But I struggled for it for years as a result (the mindset that is) - because no one ever told me what was going on physiologically in my body, which makes you feel kind of powerless to this "disease".

Not to ramble, but just to note, adolescence is very hard when you are dealing with emotions and are under the care of domineering people - it may not even be at home, but it could be from school, friends, etc. I hated my teenage years and would never wish to go back to them because teenagers tend to not be able to see beyond their own irrational (or rational) interpretation of things. I think it sounds like your niece is in a stressful environment of some sorts and she's handling it like she is. She might feel helpless. Or she might be fighting her environment the best she can. I think instead of putting her on Prozac, which could have long term issues, maybe she could go through some kind of therapy? One that will allow her freedom and not make her feel confined? I'm not against prescription drugs - I was on Paxil following my eating disorder, but it created huge issues for me (I think I became hyperactive and could not pay attention to anything), so I just decided to stop taking it. I'm sure there are other prescriptions that could be more beneficial - like maybe anti-serotonin drugs.

On a side note, how is she with people? How is her digestion? I am just curious.

Sorry to write so much, but I hope it will be of help.
 

sunmountain

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My daughter's hair has started falling out, so she is ready to try peating. I'm starting her with progest-e, days 14 until period.

What do you ladies take during the first 14 days to keep estrogen et al at bay? Just thyroid and preg?

Also today is her second day of the cycle. Her temp was 97.4 and pulse 60-68. My understanding is that this indicates cortisol/adrenalin. She wants an explanation, which I don't have. Can someone help explain this to her?

Thanks!
 

Philomath

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That sounds like my 14 year old who also has ADHD (which is very likely a thyroid issue). I've often wanted to give her progest-e as well. User Peata has some good advice for Adult dosing. It would be interesting to see what folks think about teen dosing.
 

tara

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I don't know whether or not it is wise to supplement progesterone during teens.
Other thoughts:

Nutrition comes first. Is she eating teenage amounts of nutritious food? At least 100g protein, possibly more, lots of fruit/juice, milk, and a bit of liver and eggs, and a decent amount of overall calories? Has she/you used cronometer on her diet to see if she is missing or low on anything? Salt, coffee, niacinamide, chicken neck or fish head soup all seem reasonable supplements. Magnesium too, if there's not lots in her food.

I can't answer how to keep estrogen under control without progest-e, because I use it continuously, and still get more problems in first half of cycle.

Someone else might well be able to describe this better, but here's a brief attempt at some of it. Estrogen is useful for particular purposes in limited amounts and brief periods. Progesterone balances estrogen. Lots of different stresses and environmental estrogens can increase estrogenic effects. If there is more estrogen than the available progesterone can handle at any time of the month, the estrogen can reduce body metabolism (eg reduce the amount of thyroid hormones released from thyroid gland) and body temp, possibly CO2 levels, and oxygen supply to cells, and synergise with and promote some of the other stress hormones. All of that means the cells having less energy to do what they need to do, and things not quite working the way that would give best health. This can affect pretty much every system in the body, including mood, general fatigue, water retention or other difficulties with water and mineral balance, growth and repair of body tissues, etc. Less progesterone is produced in the first half of cycle, so estrogen gets to work relatively unopposed. Some of us don't produce enough of our own progesterone to adequately oppose estrogen. If we are not producing enough thyroid hormones, this can reduce progesterone production.

Will your daughter read Peat's articles, or listen to or read his interviews? The interviews are a bit easier than the articles. If she's wanting to understand, maybe you can pick out a couple that you think she would find interesting to get her started?
 

sunmountain

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Thanks Philomath and Tara! My daughter will be 18 in June, so I'm ok with her trying the progesterone. She also has mild ADHD and GAD, so I think the progesterone might help with that too.

She has eaten well all along, though lately she skips a meal here and there due to schedule. She and I have talked many times about calorie restriction, and she has ED friends, so she is very aware of the issue, and has decided she likes her body, which is perfect anyhow.

The irony is that all through her growing years, she ate massive amounts of sugar, and I disapproved of it because I was not familiar with Peat then. It seemed almost an addiction back then. But she was healthy, other than her ADHD and GAD which were diagnosed in middle school.

Now I tell her to eat sugar to craving, and she thinks I'm nuts anyhow!

I haven't done a crono on her. I AM telling her not to miss meals, and she generally doesn't want to, but sometimes it happens due to her schedule. Otherwise she eats well when she eats, though she eats PUFA in school cafe.

She has indicated she doesn't want tons of supplements, and she has a hard time continuing things. That's in part why I'm thinking of having her try the progesterone -- since it should show some effects relatively quickly.

If the prog works, then I'll get her to try preg -- maybe it'll help her focus as it has helped me -- and then thyroid. She may have no reaction to preg, in which case we drop it.

I've also ordered p5p as Haidut posted a study about it and ADHD. I'm hoping to get her to work in Haidut's ADEK and B's at some point.

All of which is pretty optimistic. Let's see where we go with the prog. She has PMS around her period, so the prog might help with that, as well as with regulating her cycle.

Thanks for the estrogen explanation, I'll run that by her. Do you also have a way to explain the temp/pulse correlation with the stress hormones?

Thanks again
 

Donmar

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[moderator edit: post moved]


Is it safe to let my 17 year old daughter use Progest-E?
 

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