Problems With Sulphur

[Kvothe]

- Endogenous Hydrogen Sulfide Production Is Essential for Dietary Restriction Benefits
- Calorie restriction and methionine restriction in control of endogenous hydrogen sulfide production by the transsulfuration pathway

Sounds contradictory, at first. We knows H2S is elevated in degenerative diseasese, and correlates directly with dietary protein intake. Yet, protein restriction, or SAA resitriction increases the capacity for endogenous H2S production, and seems to be a factor involved in stress resilience. How do you reconcile this, Amazoniac?

 

[Amazoniac]

Sounds contradictory, at first. We knows H2S is elevated in degenerative diseasese, and correlates directly with dietary protein intake. Yet, protein restriction, or SAA resitriction increases the capacity for endogenous H2S production, and seems to be a factor involved in stress resilience. How do you reconcile this, Amazoniac?

Indeed. It might relate to one of the previous posts noting that when the intake is low, sulfur is conserved for methylation purposes by preventing its transference for the formation of other metabolites from homocysteine, the detrimental consequences of this may be mitigated by sulfide. Why rely on an alternative that seems to be more random, I don't know. Perhaps the formation of sulfide in these cases is already in response to tissues signaling shortage rather than all being part of a coordinated program. Stressed tissues that start decomposing could synthesize sulfide to work as an immediate antioxidant generated on demand or as a less elaborate attempt to recycle sulfur now that the body is avid for it.

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- GutSelf: Interindividual Variability in the Processing of Dietary Compounds by the Human Gastrointestinal Tract

"Vitamins are mainly absorbed in the upper two parts of the small intestine, the duodenum and the jejunum. The duodenum is the main absorption site for vitamins A, B1 (thiamin), B2 (riboflavin), B3 (niacin), B7 (biotin), B9 (folate), and the lipid soluble vitamins D, E, and K. To a lesser extent, these vitamins are also absorbed in the jejunum, which is the main absorption site for B5 (pantothenic acid) and B6 (pyridoxine). In the distal part of the small intestine, the ileum, vitamin B12 and vitamin C are absorbed, as well as to a lesser extent folate and vitamins D and K.[173]"​

I can't think of a vitamin that's more important for sulfur metabolism than pyridoxine. If being absorbed more distally than the others is true, it's another aspect to be wary about. In terms of microbes competing for it, I haven't looked at the enzymes involved in their 'sulfidogenesis', we might have some processes in common that depend on pyridoxal phosphate, and while there are organisms that can synthesize their own vitamins, having it abundant in their medium may be sparing for them.

- Coenzyme A

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Some members have been using UVb along with heat lamps, but the UVa component of sunlight might have an overlooked impact on sulfur metabolism. The compounds formed don't seem friendly, yet nitrogenous molecules can be one source of oxidation to explain the conversion of sulfide.
- Whole body UVA irradiation lowers systemic blood pressure by release of nitric oxide from intracutaneous photolabile nitric oxide derivates

For people who rely on artificial light for a period of the year, it would be interesting to begin exposing themselves to the sun again in this fashion:
1. Sun + Glass (-UVb) + Raj's brown/orange plastic film (-UVa and cool light): what you could be missing out by relying on heat lamps.
2. Sun + Glass (-UVb) + transparent plastic film (-UVa): to grasp the effect of visible light for the next step.
3. Sun + Glass (-UVb): if there's something beneficial from UVa that could justify broader-spectrum ultraviolence.
4. Sun

 

[Kvothe]

I can't think of a vitamin that's more important for sulfur metabolism than pyridoxine. If being absorbed more distally than the others is true, it's another aspect to be wary about. In terms of microbes competing for it, I haven't looked at the enzymes involved in their 'sulfidogenesis', we might have some processes in common that depend on pyridoxal phosphate, and while there are organisms that can synthesize their own vitamins, having it abundant in their medium may be sparing for them.

What do you have in mind specifically concerning b6 and sulphur reducing bacteria? It sounds like you think it can increase their numbers and strength when it's around abundantly. Some experiments suggest that b6 deficiency leads to increased activity of the sulphur reducers since a lack of b6 while compromise our own tissues' ability to enzymatically produce if from cysteine.

"The proportion of H2S synthesis derived from bacteria and colonic tissue was examined by
Flannigan et al. [84]. They have found that fecal samples of germ-free mice contained half of H2S in
comparison to feces of controls. Furthermore, it was shown that the absence of vitamin B6, a CSE and
CBS cofactor, in the diet resulted in a 50% reduction of fecal H2S. The deficiency of vitamin B6 in the
diet significantly reduced fecal H2S levels, likely due to the inhibition of enzymatic H2S synthesis in
colonic tissues. Interestingly, after six weeks of a vitamin B6-deficient diet, the fecal H2S levels returned
to the same levels as in controls. This suggests that the H2S generation in the gut of germ-free mice
was shifted towards nonenzymatic pathways by increasing the SRB activity [84]."

Gut Bacteria and Hydrogen Sulfide: The New Old Players in Circulatory System Homeostasis

Accumulating evidence suggests that gut bacteria play a role in homeostasis of the circulatory system in mammals. First, gut bacteria may affect the nervous control of the circulatory system via the sensory fibres of the enteric nervous system. Second, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Amazoniac]

What do you have in mind specifically concerning b6 and sulphur reducing bacteria? It sounds like you think it can increase their numbers and strength when it's around abundantly. Some experiments suggest that b6 deficiency leads to increased activity of the sulphur reducers since a lack of b6 while compromise our own tissues' ability to enzymatically produce if from cysteine.

"The proportion of H2S synthesis derived from bacteria and colonic tissue was examined by
Flannigan et al. [84]. They have found that fecal samples of germ-free mice contained half of H2S in
comparison to feces of controls. Furthermore, it was shown that the absence of vitamin B6, a CSE and
CBS cofactor, in the diet resulted in a 50% reduction of fecal H2S. The deficiency of vitamin B6 in the
diet significantly reduced fecal H2S levels, likely due to the inhibition of enzymatic H2S synthesis in
colonic tissues. Interestingly, after six weeks of a vitamin B6-deficient diet, the fecal H2S levels returned
to the same levels as in controls. This suggests that the H2S generation in the gut of germ-free mice
was shifted towards nonenzymatic pathways by increasing the SRB activity [84]."

Gut Bacteria and Hydrogen Sulfide: The New Old Players in Circulatory System Homeostasis

Accumulating evidence suggests that gut bacteria play a role in homeostasis of the circulatory system in mammals. First, gut bacteria may affect the nervous control of the circulatory system via the sensory fibres of the enteric nervous system. Second, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

That was a speculation, I was thinking while playing my handpan that pyridoxine availability could make the generation of sulfide easier for them. The fact that they have observed an initial drop in rate of sulfide synthesis in crap suggests that there was a partial reliance on dietary intake (otherwise nothing would occur), but that microbes can adapt and compensate to become independent of intake over time. If withholding pyridoxine was temporarily inhibitory, I find it possible for the opposite to occur too.

⮤ [84] Eukaryotic and prokaryotic contributions to colonic hydrogen sulfide synthesis

"[..]feeding rats a vitamin B-deficient diet for 6 wk almost completely abolished colonic H2S synthesis but had no effect on fecal H2S synthesis. Interestingly, rats on the vitamin B-deficient diet displayed significantly reduced fecal H2S synthesis after 2 wk on the diet, which is consistent with a portion of fecal H2S synthesis (i.e., the eukaryotic portion) being vitamin B6 (P-5-P) dependent. The observation that, by the end of 6 wk on the vitamin B-deficient diet, the fecal H2S production had returned to the same levels as in controls may suggest changes in the microflora of these rats or in the production of H2S via alternative pathways by colonic bacteria."​

 

[Amazoniac]

- Generative Energy Stream #51 | Daniel, Jorge y Ramón

 

[Amazoniac]

For lacking a better term, sometimes people use 'sulfate-reducing' to refer to microbes that produce sulfide, but 'sulfide-producing' (as in the articles below) is preferable because what matters the most is the product rather than the substrate; there can be multiple substrates and organisms acting on them to yield sulfide.

Raj makes the therapeutic use of sulfur sound innocuous, as if there was no risk of complications from this. Such use is like putting him in a milk tank: even though it's likely that he will consume until explosion, there's no guarantee. Before it occurs, he might outlive those who are starving for being allergic to dairy or the explosive diarrhea can wipe out susceptible (distracted and lightweight) ones around. People may take excess sulfur encouraged by its deemed safety, push their way through what they believe to be a positive sign that the intervention is working, and realize later that they're worse than before. With only a vague idea of the problem, turning yourself into a sewage plant hoping for the best isn't prudent.

Spoiler

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- Environmental Impact of Sulfate-Reducing Bacteria, Their Role in Intestinal Bowel Diseases, and Possible Control by Bacteriophages
- Isolation and characterization of bacteriophages specific to hydrogen-sulfide-producing bacteria
- Application of bacteriophages specific to hydrogen sulfide-producing bacteria in raw poultry by-products

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- Gastrointestinal and microbial responses to sulfate-supplemented drinking water in mice

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- Possible synergy effect of hydrogen sulfide and acetate produced by sulfate-reducing bacteria on inflammatory bowel disease development

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- A Catalytic Trisulfide in Human Sulfide Quinone Oxidoreductase Catalyzes Coenzyme A Persulfide Synthesis and Inhibits Butyrate Oxidation

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- Anti‐inflammatory and antiviral roles of hydrogen sulfide: Rationale for considering H2S donors in COVID‐19 therapy

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- Lipoic Acid as a Possible Pharmacological Source of Hydrogen Sulfide/Sulfane Sulfur

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- The effect of hydrogen sulfide oxidation with ultraviolet light and aeration on sour water treatment via membrane contactors

 

[Amazoniac]

- Sulfur Metabolism Under Stress

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- Caloric restriction increases levels of taurine in the intestine and stimulates taurine uptake by conjugation to glutathione

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- Sulfidogenic Bacteria Abundance in Colonic Mucosa is Positively Correlated with Milk and Animal Fat Intake and Negatively Correlated with Mono and Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids

- Functional Anthocyanin-Rich Sausages Diminish Colorectal Cancer in an Animal Model and Reduce Pro-Inflammatory Bacteria in the Intestinal Microbiota

 

[beeohbeebeewhy]

Just because there's no odor, it doesn't mean that there's no issue. Some cases:

1. Intact defenses, minor insults.
2. Intact defenses, major insults.
3. Compromised defenses, minor insults.
4. Compromised defenses, major insults.

It should be detectable in the last two, but the second case may also experience brain fog, fatigue, and so on, since detoxification systems can be taxed and nutrients being diverted for this purpose. Given that most people carry these bacteria, cases 1 and 3 should be the commonestest.

Light therapy can be overdone because you may already be running low in nutrients. By unclogging mitochondrial cytochrode c oxidase, the bright (tut) side is that it's at the last steps of cellular respiration, therefore flooding a limiting step should not be a problem. On the dark side, by stimulating and making it unimpeded, you'll be increasing the rate of the processes before it, so you could also be increasing your demand further when you can't afford doing so.

- Red Light Therapy, Lights, Supplemental Lighting​

An example would be ubiquinode. Since it's involved in detoxification of hydroged sulfide, the person could be insufficient in it, and the light boost must eventually drop it to deficient levels. Sunlight has the advantage of shaping immunity and the oxidative stress must counteract the antioxidant effect from excess hydrogen sulfide, yet it does deplete a lot of nutrients.

If you don't want to risk nutrient depletion or wastage, the surest way is to get extra and close to the light session. That's because if you take in advance, it may be impeded where light acts; if it's taken after, there's enough time for you to run out of them, lead to stress, trigger an adaptive response, and if you supplement later you'll be adding when ready to conserve them.
Has anyone tried methylene blue right after the end of a light session?

Given that celery stalk is helpful, carrot top may be too. They's from the same family.

There's the idea that bad effects after a meal are not necessarily from the current one, that it can be due to the previous moving to a compromised region of the intestine. However, another possibility is having the intestinal lining breached, infected and pathogens responding to the meal changes inside the body rather than the lumen. I don't know how severe it has to get for this occur, yet invasiveness should make it conceivable of being affected this way.

Nutrients that tend to be problematic can be taken with a mad dose of killcium, preferably as the last meal of the day to prevent interaction with other ones that might fuel the issue, there will be plenty of time until the next. As Raj mentioned, killcium will prevent microbial action, so sleep must not be disturbed from this.

I've been reading thru this thread, but a lot of it flies over my head as I'm a laymen and I'm trying to make sure I don't do anything to let my case spiral out of control, I would really appreciate if you even replied. I think I have hydrogen sulfide SIBO, I've been having a bunch of weird symptoms on and off, allergies, sudden dairy intolerance, random pains, fatigue/occasional brainfog, lots of gas, constipated. I pass a BM every few days usually into small pellets, recently they've gotten better with 1 raw carrot a day, I also have a decent amount of gas, but it is rarely ever painful or that uncomfortable. My biggest problem is I believe I smell like sulfur, I've been told I smell awful, and even I think I smell awful, its not a garlicky or onion smell, or musk smell, its sickly sweet sometimes. Do you think it could cause BO, I don't think I've seen anyone talk about it, only in regards to farts/breath.

There was also some conflicting information on Oj/Oranges, do the benefits of vitamin C outweigh its sulphur content? What fermented vegetables would you recommend? Would raw kefir be a good idea, and what do you think about raw butter? With regards to supplementation wdym by fatal? Like you could literally die if you supplement with boron and magnesium in the presence of h2s? Thoughts on 100% cacao dark chocolate and Apple Cider Vinegar? Should eggs/red meat be consumed at all, or are they too much trouble. Thanks in advance.

 

[Amazoniac]

I've been reading thru this thread, but a lot of it flies over my head as I'm a laymen and I'm trying to make sure I don't do anything to let my case spiral out of control, I would really appreciate if you even replied. I think I have hydrogen sulfide SIBO, I've been having a bunch of weird symptoms on and off, allergies, sudden dairy intolerance, random pains, fatigue/occasional brainfog, lots of gas, constipated. I pass a BM every few days usually into small pellets, recently they've gotten better with 1 raw carrot a day, I also have a decent amount of gas, but it is rarely ever painful or that uncomfortable. My biggest problem is I believe I smell like sulfur, I've been told I smell awful, and even I think I smell awful, its not a garlicky or onion smell, or musk smell, its sickly sweet sometimes. Do you think it could cause BO, I don't think I've seen anyone talk about it, only in regards to farts/breath.

There was also some conflicting information on Oj/Oranges, do the benefits of vitamin C outweigh its sulphur content? What fermented vegetables would you recommend? Would raw kefir be a good idea, and what do you think about raw butter? With regards to supplementation wdym by fatal? Like you could literally die if you supplement with boron and magnesium in the presence of h2s? Thoughts on 100% cacao dark chocolate and Apple Cider Vinegar? Should eggs/red meat be consumed at all, or are they too much trouble. Thanks in advance.

I'm a laymen too.

The symptoms that you listed aren't specific to hydrogen sulfide overexposure. It might be involved because of the constipation since this gives microbes more time to attack sulfur-contaning compounds from the diet, intestinal lining, sloughed cells, bile and so on. The priority would be to work on constipation rather than mitigating the consequences of it, once this is corrected you'll have a more reliable picture.

A member told me on a private message that noticed the sulfide gas smell in breath only after starting wearing masks; there can be alterations in urine smell as well. The oxidized forms of sulfur doesn't has the bad odor, if your body is capable of metabolizing it properly, somewhere along the way it can no longer be detected. I don't know what to make of the sweet odor, but it can stem from the gut.

The small amounts of sulfur compounds in some foods might be stimulating and one of the contributors to their laxative effect, I suspect this is the case for oranges, so it can be beneficial for you.

The fermented vegetables are usually fine, but it's preferable to let fermentantion occur in the gut because the metabolites can help to improve this condition.

Raw butter is great, the kefir depends on your reaction to it. There was a link on the previous post indicating a trend of enrichment in organisms that thrive on sulfur as the consumption of animal products increases, which is expected. It's tempting to avoid them and I guess that ditching foods that are closer to our physiology minimizes issues with these bugs, but it's not a proper solution. The situation may be comparable to the recommendations for edemium (Na): the problem can be improved through sodium restriction, but there may be nothing wrong with its intake, what has to be addressed are the other elements that make it safe. The animal products may be increasing at the expense of plant foods in the presence of this condition.

It's possible to have another deprivation diet, but we don't even know when it's compensatory or not. In cases where it's intentional, this would eventually backfire because you'll be intensifying the adaptation to obtain sulfur through other means. Reversing the process would probably be accompanied by an overwhelming amount of sulfide being produced, which is why measures that get it under control during this transition phase are useful. That's how I arrived on the (worthless) link about chlorophyllin thinking that it could help, chlorophyll is known to deodorize.

Magnesium sulfate is bitter whereas killcium sulfate is not, this must indicate that killcium is safer. In particular because excess of hydrogen sulfide may have fried the intestinal lining.
- Why Ray Recommends Eating Lots Of Calcium

However, it has to be dosed based on sulfate content since it's going to limit how much it's alright to take. The purpose is to consume the preformed metabolites to avoid impairments and possibly decrease sulfur-containing amino acids requirements. However, if sulfate becomes the main source of sulfur, the body might shift the microbial composition in the gut towards one that can supply what's missing, it might select microbes that can turn it into sulfide since it has more uses than sulfate and can eventually be converted to it when needed.

Regarding vinegar, acetate is a by-product of some of these microorganisms, but it should be beneficial nevertheless because I think that when a region of the intestine is inflammed, the ability to get its nutrition from the lumen may be compromised, so blood might be able to make up for it:
- Has Anyone Tried Sodium Acetate ? (for SIBO?)

Eggs are possibly the most problematic of the foods that you've mentioned, yet if you're craving them, it's likely a result of weighing positives and negatives with the balance still tipped in favor of positives. Cravings are more reliable for the short-term, you can take a break from the food when in doubt, but otherwise, I would only avoid going crazy on consumption and find ways to prevent or minimize the adversities: preparation, pairing, timing, and so on. For example, plain cocoa may be intolerable, but with milch and pink pepper added it may be fine.

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- Properties of a fungicidal product formed from a reaction between L-cystine and pyridoxal

- Vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) boosts hydrogen sulfide tissue concentrations in heart and other mouse organs

 

[beeohbeebeewhy]

The symptoms that you listed aren't specific to hydrogen sulfide overexposure. It might be involved because of the constipation since this gives microbes more time to attack sulfur-contaning compounds from the diet, intestinal lining, sloughed cells, bile and so on. The priority would be to work on constipation rather than mitigating the consequences of it, once this is corrected you'll have a more reliable picture.

A member told me on a private message that noticed the sulfide gas smell in breath only after starting wearing masks; there can be alterations in urine smell as well. The oxidized forms of sulfur doesn't has the bad odor, if your body is capable of metabolizing it properly, somewhere along the way it can no longer be detected. I don't know what to make of the sweet odor, but it can stem from the gut.

The small amounts of sulfur compounds in some foods might be stimulating and one of the contributors to their laxative effect, I suspect this is the case for oranges, so it can be beneficial for you.

The fermented vegetables are usually fine, but it's preferable to let fermentantion occur in the gut because the metabolites can help to improve this condition.

Raw butter is great, the kefir depends on your reaction to it. There was a link on the previous post indicating a trend of enrichment in organisms that thrive on sulfur as the consumption of animal products increases, which is expected. It's tempting to avoid them and I guess that ditching foods that are closer to our physiology minimizes issues with these bugs, but it's not a proper solution. The situation may be comparable to the recommendations for edemium (Na): the problem can be improved through sodium restriction, but there may be nothing wrong with its intake, what has to be addressed are the other elements that make it safe. The animal products may be increasing at the expense of plant foods in the presence of this condition.

It's possible to have another deprivation diet, but we don't even know when it's compensatory or not. In cases where it's intentional, this would eventually backfire because you'll be intensifying the adaptation to obtain sulfur through other means. Reversing the process would probably be accompanied by an overwhelming amount of sulfide being produced, which is why measures that get it under control during this transition phase are useful. That's how I arrived on the (worthless) link about chlorophyllin thinking that it could help, chlorophyll is known to deodorize.

Magnesium sulfate is bitter whereas killcium sulfate is not, this must indicate that killcium is safer. In particular because excess of hydrogen sulfide may have fried the intestinal lining.
- Why Ray Recommends Eating Lots Of Calcium

However, it has to be dosed based on sulfate content since it's going to limit how much it's alright to take. The purpose is to consume the preformed metabolites to avoid impairments and possibly decrease sulfur-containing amino acids requirements. However, if sulfate becomes the main source of sulfur, the body might shift the microbial composition in the gut towards one that can supply what's missing, it might select microbes that can turn it into sulfide since it has more uses than sulfate and can eventually be converted to it when needed.

Regarding vinegar, acetate is a by-product of some of these microorganisms, but it should be beneficial nevertheless because I think that when a region of the intestine is inflammed, the ability to get its nutrition from the lumen may be compromised, so blood might be able to make up for it:
- Has Anyone Tried Sodium Acetate ? (for SIBO?)

Eggs are possibly the most problematic of the foods that you've mentioned, yet if you're craving them, it's likely a result of weighing positives and negatives with the balance still tipped in favor of positives. Cravings are more reliable for the short-term, you can take a break from the food when in doubt, but otherwise, I would only avoid going crazy on consumption and find ways to prevent or minimize the adversities: preparation, pairing, timing, and so on. For example, plain cocoa may be intolerable, but with milch and pink pepper added it may be fine.

---

- Properties of a fungicidal product formed from a reaction between L-cystine and pyridoxal

- Vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) boosts hydrogen sulfide tissue concentrations in heart and other mouse organs

Firstly, thank you so much for the comprehensive reply, this past week my constipation has improved (it never caused me discomfort but I suspect the body odor is related to not having normal BMs/poor digestion?) about 1 BM a day. I'll keep oranges in, and maybe I'll add in celery or some other vegetables (non fermented), along with the daily carrot salad (I was mostly Keto for 4 months or so late this summer/early winter), I'll keep the ACV with the carrot salad too, add mushrooms, and coconut oil. I think i'll add pasteurized milk back into my diet for the calcium, or get a supplement if I must,

I stopped being able to tolerate raw milk after 2 months or so drinking it regularly, I assume I over did it starting off, and possibly fed SIBO, it caused some gas and bloating which was negligible until it gave me painful gas/indigestion/diarrhea, minor blood in my stools, I was also overdoing it on the raw eggs and too much meat probably. Since stopping raw eggs and onions my body odor is much less pungent, but I'll reintroduce a raw egg or a scrambled egg after I work on digestion/regular bowel movement.

I'm going to try and make a greater effort to get steamed vegetables into my diet, as well as some soups, and bone broth. I've made my own kefir but i'm still hesitant to drink more than a few sips, as i'm not sure if its an irritant, its something I'll probably add into my diet after achieve more normal gut health/eating behaviors. After doing some more lurking I think Leaky Gut may be a better fit for my symptoms, though there's definitely some overlap with SIBO, so i'll just try to disinfect/heal my gut.

If I understand correctly the Vitamin D3 link is regarding the potential fatality of supplementation and H2S, I really appreciate you bringing this to my attention, as my Endocrinologist prescribed me Vitamin D3 on Monday, following bloodwork showing me as Vitamin D deficient, high TSH (~3.3), I'll make sure to just get more sun, fish, etc. Instead of supplementing D3. And I assume the L-cystine and pyridoxal link is to show that I shouldn't avoid all sulfuric animal products because they can help combat fungus and potentially SIBO if consumed in moderation?

Finally, what are your thoughts on Raw Honey? I feel its helps me with digestion, easy carbs/calories, but I'm mostly interested in its antibacterial properties, I just want to know if i'm ignorant to some problem/danger associated with consuming too much that you were aware of.

 

[Amazoniac]

I was reading again the publication below, where they described one of their experiments that consisted of varying the intake of protein (low-fat tuna in this case) and tracking urinary sulfate. On every instance the same amount of supplemental methionine was added to test retention judging by a corresponding amount of sulfate that's expected to be eliminated. They had in mind that methionine can be (almost) the sole source of sulfur in the diet and even though methionine utilization might be compromised without the rest of amino acids, other pathways dependent on sulfur that aren't the priority could benefit from this excess. Only when having adequate sulfur that the extra methionine added was expected to be entirely excreted as sulfate.

- Are we getting enough sulfur in our diet?

Spoiler

"[..]requirements of man for methionine, and the sparing effects of cysteine, determined in young healthy volunteers in 1955 by Rose et al are still accepted today, in spite of indications that they may not represent universal values [5]. Tuttle et al [6] feeding purified amino acid diets containing variable amounts of methionine to older individuals at the VA Hospital in Los Angeles/UCLA established values significantly higher than those previously established by Rose in young college students. They all needed more than 2.1 g/day, with some subjects requiring up to 3.0 g/day to remain in positive nitrogen balance. Although Fukagawa et al [7] were not able to confirm such differences using amino acid oxidation, rather that N-balance as criteria; they agreed that further studies were required. Neither their approaches, which relies on the production of isotope enriched CO2, nor the nitrogen balance studies take into account the unique role of the SAA (sulfur amino acids), to provide S for sulfation. Fuller and Garlick [8] who reviewed the subject in detail concluded that, both for men and women amino acid requirements appear underestimated."

"In light of these concerns, particularly as it relates to the unique role of the SAA in providing sulfates for GAG (glycosaminoglycans) synthesis, it seems essential to determine if the needs for sulfur are being met, in particular as it relates to GAG and GSH (glutathione) in cartilage. One could predict that GAG synthesis may not fare well during marginal intakes, and that a preference will be given to the synthesis of proteins and essential metabolic intermediates like CoA, SAM (S-Adenosyl-L-Methionine), GSH, etc. in the brain and other fundamental organs."

"At low intracellular concentrations of methionine, remethylation of the metabolic product is favored over transsulfuration, and methionine is conserved. With increasing methionine intake, the transsulfuration pathway, which provides a substrate for GSH synthesis, is increased.

Thus, under conditions of low SAA intake, protein synthesis will be maintained, and synthesis of sulfate and GSH will be curtailed. Changes in the availability of GSH are likely to influence in a negative fashion the function of the immune system and of the antioxidant defense mechanisms.

High dietary intakes methionine (5–6 g/day) on the other hand have been shown to raise plasma levels of homocysteine, despite adequate intakes of B vitamins [31-33]."

"Methionine or cysteine (0.5%) added to the diet can overcome the severe methionine deficiency induced in rats by the addition of 1% acetaminophen, (an equivalent to the 4 gm/day to a human dose) [12]. It is interesting to note that D- as well as L-methionine could restore growth, implying that depletion of sulfur was the primary defect and not one related to protein synthesis."

"Most important is that hepatic concentrations of active sulfate, in the form of PAPS (adenosine 3'-phosphate 5'-phosphosulftate) a key metabolic precursor of GAG was also decreased and could be restored to normal by supplementation with methionine [13]. Urinary sulfate excretion was reduced up to 95% by feeding low-methionine diets to rats, and a 60% decrease in liver methionine was observed [14]. Depending on the degree of depletion restoration of normal sulfate excretion and levels of liver glutathione could be achieved during supplementation. Inorganic sulfate was not as effective in restoring PAPS levels as methionine (Fig 1)."

[13] Effects of Variation in the Dietary Supply of Cysteine and Methionine on Liver Concentration of Glutathione and “Active Sulfate” (PAPS) and Serum Levels of Sulfate, Cystine, Methionine and Taurine: Relation to the Metabolism of Acetaminophen​

"As discussed earlier, GSH is influenced by dietary SAA intake. In an isotopic study in rats, when diets with various SAA contents were fed at adequate levels, 7 molecules of S were incorporated into GSH for every 10 incorporated into protein [34]. At inadequate levels of intake the ratio fell to <3:10. This response to a low intake of SAA is causes antioxidant defenses to become compromised."

"The amount of protein in the various foods varies considerably, and the amount of SAA fluctuates. Chicken, fish and beef proteins contain an average of around 5% of SAA. Dairy products, milk, cheese, etc, contain lower levels, around 4%, primarily due to the lower content of SAA in casein. The whey protein fraction, accounts for about 20% of the milk proteins (rich in lactoglobulins) contains more SAA, and is used therapeutically or as a dietary supplement. Plant proteins, in addition to be present in lower amounts, are relatively low in SAA, averaging below 4%. The highest content of SAA is found in egg products, the egg white containing around 8% of SAA."

"For purposes of calculations the cysteine and methionine were combined as SAA. In general the ratio of cysteine/methionine is close to one for poultry and red meat protein, and to 0.7 for fish. Dairy products tend to have slightly higher levels of methionine and starch rich foods slightly more cysteine. Eggs contain significantly more cysteine. To estimate molar concentrations a 1:1 ratio was employed."

"The retention of sulfur from SAA or from the dietary supplements administered during the ingestion of low or marginal levels of protein as compared to the enhanced excretion during higher levels of intake provided valuable clues (Fig. 3). It would appear from our findings that the minimum adequate intake values determined in a VA setting in older people by Tuttle et al [6] may closer to being accurate than those currently accepted as the RDA."

Spoiler: Figures 2 and 4

I tried to match the levels of these two figures.

"[..]around 75–85 g of protein/day. This amount of protein, would supply approximately 3.5 to 4.0 g of SAA per day, which should more than meet all estimates for the requirements of these amino acids."

⮤ [20] Chondroitin Sulfate and Sulfur Containing Chondroprotective Agents: Is there a Basis for their Pharmacological Action?

⮤ [56] Chondroitin sulfate and other sulfate containing chondroprotective agents may exhibit their effects by overcoming a deficiency of sulfur amino acids​

It's practical to think in terms of 5% of protein intake being from sulfur-containing amino acids. There are people consuming 150 g of protein and getting a lot of sulfur.



- A study on the estimation of sulfur-containing amino acid metabolism by the determination of urinary sulfate and taurine

If I understand correctly the Vitamin D3 link is regarding the potential fatality of supplementation and H2S, I really appreciate you bringing this to my attention, as my Endocrinologist prescribed me Vitamin D3 on Monday, following bloodwork showing me as Vitamin D deficient, high TSH (~3.3), I'll make sure to just get more sun, fish, etc. Instead of supplementing D3. And I assume the L-cystine and pyridoxal link is to show that I shouldn't avoid all sulfuric animal products because they can help combat fungus and potentially SIBO if consumed in moderation?

The last links were not related to the reply.

Finally, what are your thoughts on Raw Honey? I feel its helps me with digestion, easy carbs/calories, but I'm mostly interested in its antibacterial properties, I just want to know if i'm ignorant to some problem/danger associated with consuming too much that you were aware of.

How is I supposed to trash honey to a bee member? I would rotate (or combine) honeys when consuming in greater amounts to avoid getting too much of an allergen. There's the sugar ratio issue and lack of micronutrients. If you start to react poorly to them, you can seek those that have a light color and are fully crystallized (not waxy) because they tend to be less problematic.
- Best Type Of Honey To Get
- Fructose And Endotoxin [edwardjedmonds]

 

[beeohbeebeewhy]

How is I supposed to trash honey to a bee member? I would rotate (or combine) honeys when consuming in greater amounts to avoid getting too much of an allergen. There's the sugar ratio issue and lack of micronutrients. If you start to react poorly to them, you can seek those that have a light color and are fully crystallized (not waxy) because they tend to be less problematic.
- Best Type Of Honey To Get
- Fructose And Endotoxin [edwardjedmonds]

??? LOL Yeah I was reading something the other night about how the lighter, clearer honeys were a better choice for some reason. Anyways thanks for the reply again, I'm gonna keep having a lot of honey.

 

[Amazoniac]

On the previous post, Figure 2 is actually Figure 3. I had to use the original one from another publication because there were errors when they reproduced it. I forgot to remove numbering to avoid confusion.

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- A study on the estimation of sulfur-containing amino acid metabolism by the determination of urinary sulfate and taurine

"Florin et al. (1991) estimated that dietary sulfate accounted for up to 42% of available sulfate in humans. It was reported that tracer dose of sulfate is well absorbed and 80% of an oral dose was recovered in the urine over 24 h (Bauer, 1976) and a dose of 0.75 mmol/kg sodium sulfate administered in 4 hourly divided doses had a average bioavailability of 43.5% (Cocchetto and Levy, 1981). Magnesium sulfate is also absorbed, but less completely than sodium sulfate (Morris and Levy, 1983)."

"It has been reported that taurine corresponding to 40 to 70% of orally administered dose was excreted in the urine (Evered et al., 1969; Sturman et al., 1975; Wang and Zhao, 1998)."​

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This one was posted on the morbydenum thread, but it's interesting and deserves to be reposted here. It's by the same author of the 'plasma cysteine/sulfate ratio' article, which is more recent, yet it's worth reading for the different details.

- Sulfate Deficiency as a Risk Factor for Autism

⬑ Sulphur Metabolism in Autism (!)

 

[Amazoniac]

- Hydrogen sulfide in longevity and pathologies: Inconsistency is malodorous

"H2S can be found in all parts of a body, however, its distribution is unequal (Fig. 2). The concentration of H2S in the intestine is very high and varies from 0.2 to 1 mM in mice (Deplancke et al., 2003) to 0.3–3.4 mM in humans (Florin et al., 1991; Magee et al., 2000; Pochart et al., 1992). Significant, but much lower concentrations was also found in the blood of humans (2–580 μM), rats (7–63 μM) and mice (0.1–80 μM; McCook et al., 2014), although these data were questioned (McCook et al., 2014; Olson, 2011).

A relatively low concentration of H2S (about 8–14 μM) was found in the pancreatic acini (Cao et al., 2006; Tamizhselvi et al., 2007). Such a difference (at least by one order of magnitude of H2S concentration) between the gut and the adjacent tissues may point to the importance of utilization of H2S, produced by intestinal bacteria, in the gut walls. In the case of ethylmalonic encephalopathy, when the level of endogenous H2S is raised up to toxic, one of the main therapeutic strategies is the administration of antibiotics in order to lower the H2S influx from the gut (Ohge et al., 2003). We may hypothesize that leakage of H2S from the gut may be involved in some pathologies, especially age-related. The fact that the function of the gut walls as a barrier is impaired by aging was shown in most model organisms, including rodents and non-human primates (Branca et al., 2019), however, the detoxification of H2S in gut walls was not examined in these studies. E.g. leakage even of a small amount of H2S from the gut to the nearby pancreas can be dangerous for its β-cells because the fact of exceptional toxicity of H2S for them was shown (Yang et al., 2007)."

"NAC, as well as H2S, are disulfide bond breaking agents, and their mucolytic effect is based on this property, however, sulfide is a more potent disulfide bond breaker than NAC, Cys, and GSH (Ijssennagger et al., 2015)."

"It is necessary to take into account that concentration and the rate of H2S generation are critical for biological H2S responses. The fast- and slow-releasing, targeted and non-targeted H2S donors can affect different biochemical pathways and can exert different, even opposing, cellular responses (Szczesny et al., 2014; Yu et al., 2019)."​

- Changes in the sulfhydryl and disulfide groups in animal skin following a single exposure to ultraviolet light
⬑ [5] The Effect of Ultraviolet Radiation on Sulfhydryl and Disulfide Containing Amino Acids

"In previous studies quantitative measurements were made on the influence of ultraviolet irradiation on the rate of hydroxylation and of destruction of those amino acids that have heen implicated in the process of skin pigmentation and erythema production (1). It was found that these effects were inhibited by the presence of sulfhydryl containing amino acids. The results obtained were compatible with the hypothesis of Rothman and his associates that pigmentogenic stimuli such as ultraviolet radiation cause pigmentation by oxidizing or destroying inhibitory sulfhydryl compounds, thus enabling an enzyme to act on the pigment precursor (2).​

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- Emerging pharmacological tools to control hydrogen sulfide signaling in critical illness

- New Targets and Inhibitors of Mycobacterial Sulfur Metabolism

- Cysteine and obesity: consistency of the evidence across epidemiologic, animal and cellular studies

 

[Amazoniac]

Given that legumes are great sources of morbydenum and that crapohydrates fermentation in the gut affects the course of the undigested fraction of proteins, the following is relevant (I thought that I had posted it elsewhere, but couldn't find):

- Influence of soaking on the nutritional quality of common beans (Phaseolus vulgaris L.) cooked with or without the soaking water: a review

"Some studies (Oliveira et al., 2001a,b; Ramírez-Cárdenas et al., 2008) found a greater reduction in the content of tannins, phytates and oligosaccharides in beans that were soaked and cooked without the soaking water.​

​

However, Ramírez-Cárdenas et al. (2008) pointed out some studies that state that low concentrations of phytates and phenolic compounds can be protective against cancer and cardiovascular diseases. Meanwhile, oligosaccharide fermentation may have positive results such as production of short-chain fatty acids and decrease in intestinal pH (Muzquiz, 2008; Campos-Vega et al., 2009)."​

 

[Amazoniac]

I wonder if hydrogen sulfide can impact the recycling of "vitamin" K.

- Vitamin K epoxide reductase - Wikipedia
- Thioredoxin - Wikipedia
- Thioredoxin reductase - Wikipedia

 

[Amazoniac]

After the oxidation of hydrogen sulfide through the ubiquinone-dependent enzyme, the products are metabolized in the mitochondria. If things go awry, "manganese" is possibly used up. Needs might be elevated in this case.

- Low Dietary Manganese Levels Exacerbate Experimental Colitis in Mice

If the majority of "manganese" consumed isn't absorbed, can this fraction have an use? Be recovered from the lumen of the intestine where necessary and have a local protective function?

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On the cool-toned diet:
- Blueberries counteract intestinal diseases | ScienceDaily
- Berry good news: newly discovered compound from blueberries could treat inflammatory disorders: Scientists show how a polyphenolic compound derived from blueberry can treat inflammatory bowel disease

I wouldn't go overboard on these compounds because of the concern raised by Maggie (that caught Kvothe's attention). If they happen to inhibit sulfotransferases, these can already be working without enough sulfate.

Related to this, it can be interesting to go against the rain and try mostly the white part of the citrus peel, or at least have it processed in a way that reduces the components of the outer layer. Some people scald the peels to make them milder, but steaming fine cuts is another option that may also suffice.
- Butyric Acid From Fiber And Starch
- Orange Peel - What You Have Been Missing By Discarding It

 

[Kvothe]

I wouldn't go overboard on these compounds because of the concern raised by Maggie (that caught Kvothe's attention). If they happen to inhibit sulfotransferases, these can already be working without enough sulfate.

All I can say to this is that I have been enjoying homemade blueberrie ice cream for the last two weeks. I have yet to decide whether they taste better than Himbeeren.

 

[Amazoniac]

- Dietary manganese affects the concentration, composition and sulfation pattern of heparan sulfate glycosaminoglycans in Sprague-Dawley rat aorta

"One significant function of Mn is its effect on proteoglycan (PG) and glycosaminoglycan (GAG) metabolism (Leach 1971). Manganese functions as a specific activator of glycosyltransferases, enzymes involved in the elongation and polymerization of GAG chains in connective tissue (Leach et al. 1969). Manganese deficiency affects GAGs biosynthesis and results in decreases in total and individual GAGs, especially chondroitin sulfate (CS) in chick cartilage and rat skin (Leach et al. 1969; Bolze et al. 1985; Leach 1986; Shetlar & Shetlar 1994). Manganese also effectively activates sulfotransferases, enzymes involved in GAG sulfation and synthesis (Gundlach & Conrad 1985)."​

It's worth observing if having adequate manganese makes a difference on how sulfate is metabolized. Manganese follows (for the most part) the fat-soluble route of excretion through feces, whereas sulfate is eliminated mainly in urine, like other water-soluble toxins. If sulfate is applied on the skin at the same time that a meal rich in manganese is consumed, by the time that it gets digested, sulfate may already be on its way out.

All I can say to this is that I have been enjoying homemade blueberrie ice cream for the last two weeks. I have yet to decide whether they taste better than Himbeeren.

I think that there's information available on these pigments being used for 'photodynamic therapy'. If they happen to become overwhelming, boosting their degradation through light might be possible, although their absorption spectrum changes just by varing pH.
- pH indicator - Wikipedia

 

[Vins7]

Avoid high sulfur foods for a while, primarily: Brassica, Eggs, Beans, Alliums, Dairy. Easy way to remember is B.E. B.A.D., as in 'them sulfur containing foods be bad for my gas'. Take plenty of supplemental molybdenum (key to optimal sulfuration pathways), and also get lots of pepto-bismul (this will help to eliminate excess sulfur from the gut) and also make iron less available to gut bacteria. I have been reading about this lately, I think it explains why I always feel bloated after eating, and burp excessively - even after having done all I can otherwise to keep from having any SIBO symptoms, (enzymes, acv, hcl, etc etc). I think this also explains why I respond so well to DMSO - I think it gives me relief as it is getting sulfur to places that are sulfur deficient (this supports the idea that I have some poor handling of sulfur). What I have gathered is, if the sulfur pathways are not running well, then to compensate, the gut will support more hydrogen sulfide producing bacteria - which over time creates poor health effects and is agitated by taking in more sulfur. Apparently people have a good success rate of correcting this problem simply by taking a break from high sulfur foods for several weeks, and increasing molydenum etc. I am trying this out as of just a few days ago. I realized I have been eating a lot of high sulfur foods for most of my life, and generally have always felt bloated, so I am interested to see if this fixes my bloat. I have always been bloated to the extent that if I lose weight it is hardly noticeable as my gut will just take up the extra slack through bloat.

This is old, but It could help me. How was your experience doing what you proposed?