Problems with facial fat wasting - Skinny/gaunt face

[Callmestar]

My face has been very skinny for a few years now and recently seems to be losing even more weight. I lost the weight from my face in quite a short period of time in my late twenties. Over maybe a year. Up until then I had a full face. The volume of my face now does not correlate with the weight/mass of my body. Body wise, I am reasonably well built and of around average weight, with a small amount of fat on the belly/chest areas. My face though looks as though I've not eaten in weeks. People often refer to me is skinny or say "there's not much of you is there" when all they are seeing is my face during winter etc, but body wise I am not skinny at all.

The gaunt-looking face absolutely destroys my confidence. I avoid as much social interaction as possible for fear of the reaction from friends and family. My jaw has become extremely pointed/and thin looking. I have yet been unable to find a way to resolve this.

Generally putting on weight, helps to a minor degree but my body would have to become extremely overweight for my face to look anywhere near healthy and not skinny. So this isn't really an option. Starchy carbs/grains can make a subtle difference but I assume this likely water weight and I am currently avoiding these foods.

Has anyone experienced this and managed to improve it?

I've had an issue with the cartilage in my throat and a restriction of the movement of the throat structures when swallowing. Sounds unlikely but to me it feels as though there could be a link between this and the facial weight loss as they began around the same time. Nonetheless, if anyone has any ideas on how to increase weight in the face, please share.

 

[AgentCranberry]

Hello Callmestar,

please describe your diet!

1. High amounts of good quality animal flesh and fat increases the fullness of the face (the desirable, healthy looking one). I experienced the effect both on myself and on others.

A good example is Derek Nance: Before starting his raw ~95% carnivore diet (whole sheep) his face was narrow, now after 10 years his face looks very full and healthy. Or have a look at the daughter of Jordan Peterson , her face also gained a pleasant fullness.

Not that I advocate a fully carnivorous diet except in rare cases. You will probably get the effect if you base your diet on meat and eat other things, too.

2. Spending time in nature (especially camping) also produces a healthier looking face in my experience

P.S.: Is "fullness" the correct word here? not a native speaker

Edit: Please also describe under what light conditions you live daily on average. Where do you work and in what light, how often do you go outside, how much sun is there, how much screen time do you have etc.

 

[Callmestar]

My diet, was a typical, Potato, Rice, Veg, Egg, and muscle meat type diet. Until recently when I cam across Ray peat. I am now attempting to eat more fruit, dairy, meat, only root veg etc.

I live in the UK, so there isn't much sun in the winter. Summer there is a reasonable amount of sun. But I work an office based job so the majority of my day during the week is spent indoors in front of a screen. I go outside every day but this may be when the sun has already gone down or only very briefly when the sun is out. Screen time is a lot, maybe 10 hours a day.

 

[Sila]

Try topical sunflower oil, but avoid sunlight when you use it. It has helped with fattening my face skin, specifically my under eye area.

 

[Mauritio]

My face has been very skinny for a few years now and recently seems to be losing even more weight. I lost the weight from my face in quite a short period of time in my late twenties. Over maybe a year. Up until then I had a full face. The volume of my face now does not correlate with the weight/mass of my body. Body wise, I am reasonably well built and of around average weight, with a small amount of fat on the belly/chest areas. My face though looks as though I've not eaten in weeks. People often refer to me is skinny or say "there's not much of you is there" when all they are seeing is my face during winter etc, but body wise I am not skinny at all.

The gaunt-looking face absolutely destroys my confidence. I avoid as much social interaction as possible for fear of the reaction from friends and family. My jaw has become extremely pointed/and thin looking. I have yet been unable to find a way to resolve this.

Generally putting on weight, helps to a minor degree but my body would have to become extremely overweight for my face to look anywhere near healthy and not skinny. So this isn't really an option. Starchy carbs/grains can make a subtle difference but I assume this likely water weight and I am currently avoiding these foods.

Has anyone experienced this and managed to improve it?

I've had an issue with the cartilage in my throat and a restriction of the movement of the throat structures when swallowing. Sounds unlikely but to me it feels as though there could be a link between this and the facial weight loss as they began around the same time. Nonetheless, if anyone has any ideas on how to increase weight in the face, please share.

Ever tried progesterone ? it gives this full glowing look to a young face .

 

[Zigzag]

If you don't have any visible folds caused by aging and permanent fat pads shrinking then I doubt you can do anything. It's just how you store fat and apparently your face is first to lose it. How's your bone structure though? Most of the time visible angularity is actually desirable.

 

[Callmestar]

Ever tried progesterone ? it gives this full glowing look to a young face .

Does it?

 

[Callmestar]

Try topical sunflower oil, but avoid sunlight when you use it. It has helped with fattening my face skin, specifically my under eye area.

I've tried putting just about everything on my face. No oil on the surface is going to make any significant difference.

 

[Callmestar]

If you don't have any visible folds caused by aging and permanent fat pads shrinking then I doubt you can do anything. It's just how you store fat and apparently your face is first to lose it. How's your bone structure though? Most of the time visible angularity is actually desirable.

My bone structure is fine. For sure women often prefer the more visual bone structure to a point. But mine has gone too far, and I look gaunt/emaciated. I'll be looking at getting facial fat transfer if nothing can improve it. I utter despise myself, can barely look in the mirror.

 

[Zigzag]

My bone structure is fine. For sure women often prefer the more visual bone structure to a point. But mine has gone too far, and I look gaunt/emaciated. I'll be looking at getting facial fat transfer if nothing can improve it. I utter despise myself, can barely look in the mirror.

Any example for a comparison? I doubt you look like Christian Bale in The Machinist. What about the folds? Do you have visible signs of aging?

 

[Sila]

I've tried putting just about everything on my face. No oil on the surface is going to make any significant difference.

Sunflower oil does work. It promotes fat gain in adipocytes through PPAR activation.

 

[Razvan]

Don't listen to carnivorous BS. I think you have low cholesterol or low conversation of cholesterol to his metabolites. Try eating lots of cholesterol with carbs and maybe improving thyroid function.Look at my latest thread,it's about cholesterol.

 

[Callmestar]

Don't listen to carnivorous BS. I think you have low cholesterol or low conversation of cholesterol to his metabolites. Try eating lots of cholesterol with carbs and maybe improving thyroid function.Look at my latest thread,it's about cholesterol.

I have high cholesterol according to blood tests. I will check out your thread though.

 

[Callmestar]

Any example for a comparison? I doubt you look like Christian Bale in The Machinist. What about the folds? Do you have visible signs of aging?

I'd not seen that film but I just googled it....in terms of face that's not far off how I am. I wouldn't want to post pics but there's a definite change and it's mentioned frequently by people that see me. "Oh you've lost so much weight" "You look ill" etc etc. What are we classing as visible signs of aging? I suppose I do to a degree, I'm in my early 30s so most have some signs of aging at this point. I wouldn't say I have folds but the face is looking more sunken and fine lines and wrinkles are forming. I wouldn't say it's an age thing, it happened very quickly. My skin is overall a bit haggard for my age from a rough past, scars, stress and too much sun when younger but on the odd times where I have put on even more weight and it's plumped up a bit, it looks a lot better.

 

[Callmestar]

Sunflower oil does work. It promotes fat gain in adipocytes through PPAR activation.

Has it been shown to do that by applying it topically or is that from taking it internally?

 

[meatbag]

Sunflower oil is mostly PUFA you shouldn't consume it or put it to be absorbed on the dermis. You probably have atrophied skin and facial muscles. Do you eat beef liver? Topical DHEA might help as well;

Progesterone Pregnenolone & DHEA - Three Youth-Associated Hormones

Blocking Tissue Destruction

The Lower Your Cortisol Levels, The Younger You Look

 

[Sila]

Has it been shown to do that by applying it topically or is that from taking it internally?

Topically. I got results within one week of applying.

 

[meatbag]

(please note that in reality there is no membrane like the one displayed in the graphic;Membranes, plasma membranes, and surfaces,https://gilbertling.org/PCP40_ling_ochsenfeld.pdf

-
All PPARs heterodimerize with the retinoid X receptor (RXR) and bind to specific regions on the DNA of target genes. These DNA sequences are termed PPREs (peroxisome proliferator hormone response elements). The DNA consensus sequence is AGGTCANAGGTCA, with N being any nucleotide. In general, this sequence occurs in the promoter region of a gene, and, when the PPAR binds its ligand, transcription of target genes is increased or decreased, depending on the gene. The RXR also forms a heterodimer with a number of other receptors (e.g., vitamin D and thyroid hormone).

The function of PPARs is modified by the precise shape of their ligand-binding domain (see below) induced by ligand binding and by a number of coactivator and corepressor proteins, the presence of which can stimulate or inhibit receptor function, respectively.[10]

Endogenous ligands for the PPARs include free fatty acids, eicosanoids and Vitamin B3. PPARγ is activated by PGJ2 (a prostaglandin) and certain members of the 5-HETE family of arachidonic acid metabolites including 5-oxo-15(S)-HETE and 5-oxo-ETE.[11] In contrast, PPARα is activated by leukotriene B4. Certain members of the 15-hydroxyeicosatetraenoic acid family of arachidonic acid metabolites, including 15(S)-HETE, 15(R)-HETE, and 15-HpETE activate to varying degrees PPAR alpha, beta/delta, and gamma.[12] PPARγ activation by agonist RS5444 may inhibit anaplastic thyroid cancer growth.[13] See[14] for a review and critique of the roles of PPAR gamma in cancer.
Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor - Wikipedia
-
"If cancer needs fat to survive and grow then it would probably produce whatever fat there is machinery for even if it does not like the result very much. FAS is also involved in synthesizing other signalling molecules (PPAR ligands) that cancer cells use. Perhaps the most relevant aspect of FAS for cancer is its fusion with the estrogen receptor, with likely mutual upregulation/activation. So, the palmitic acid production may not be the main pro-oncogenic contribution for this enzyme.
Fatty acid synthase - Wikipedia
"...The gene that codes for FAS has been investigated as a possible oncogene.[35] FAS is upregulated in breast cancers and as well as being an indicator of poor prognosis may also be worthwhile as a chemotherapeutic target.[36][37] FAS may also be involved in the production of an endogenous ligand (biochemistry) for the nuclear receptor PPARalpha, the target of the fibrate drugs for hyperlipidemia,[38] and is being investigated as a possible drug target for treating the metabolic syndrome.[39] Orlistat which is a gastrointenstinal inhibitor also inhibits FAS and has a potential as a medicine for cancer.[40][41] In some cancer cell lines, this protein has been found to be fused with estrogen receptor alpha (ER-alpha), in which the N-terminus of FAS is fused in-frame with the C-terminus of ER-alpha.[8]""
PUFA Required/essential For Cancer; Stearic Acid Is A PUFA Antagonist & Anti-cancer
-
"Substances very much like the prostaglandins, called isoprostanes and neuroprostanes, are formed spontaneously from highly unsaturated fatty acids, and are useful as indicators of the rate of lipid peroxidation in the body. Most of the products of lipid peroxidation are toxic, as a result of their reactions with proteins, DNA, and the mitochondria. The age-related glycation products that are usually blamed on sugar, are largely the result of peroxidation of the polyunsaturated fatty acids."

"PUFA and x-rays have many biological effects in common. They are immunosuppressive, but they produce their own inflammatory reactions, starting with increased permeability of capillaries, disturbed coagulation and proteolysis, and producing fibrosis and tumefaction or tissue atrophy. This isn't just a coincidence, since ionizing radiation attacks the highly unstable polyunsaturated molecules, simply accelerating processes that ordinarily happen more slowly as a result of stress and aging.

Prolonged stress eventually tends to be a self-sustaining process, impairing the efficient respiratory production of energy, converting muscle tissue to amino acids, suppressing the thyroid, and activating further mobilization of fatty acids. Fatty acids are mobilized from within the structure of cells by phospholipases, and from fat tissues by other lipases."

"Fibrosis is a generalized consequence of the abnormal capillary permeability produced by things that disrupt the clotting system. Estrogen, with its known contribution to the formation of blood clots and edema and fibrosis and tumors, achieves part of its effect by maintaining a chronically high level of free fatty acids, preferentially liberating arachidonic acid, rather than saturated fatty acids."
Fats and degeneration
-
One of the perennial theories of aging that has remained viable is the metaplasm/lipofuscin/age pigment theory, the idea that a toxic material accumulates in tissues over time. The age pigment contains proteins, cross-linked PUFA, and metals. The inhibition of proteolytic enzymes is involved in its accumulation, and the ratio of PUFA to saturated fatty acids is an important factor in its formation. Estrogen is one of the factors that can promote the formation of age pigment, probably partly because its lipolytic action increases the cells' exposure to free fatty acids. The lipofuscin contributes to inhibition of proteolysis, probably partly through increased production of free radicals and hydrogen peroxide.

The reason linseed oil and fish oil were used for making varnishes and paints was that they are "drying oils," reacting with oxygen to polymerize and harden. The physical and chemical propertiess of the oils are fairly well understood, and among the polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) the omega -3 fatty acids react most easily with oxygen. Heat, light, and moisture increase their spontaneous interactions with oxygen, and besides polymerizing, these oils produce a variety of reactive particles, including acrolein, which combine with other substances, such as cellular proteins and DNA, with highly toxic effects. At low temperatures and low oxygen concentrations these oils are not highly reactive.​

One major area of research that has been neglected involves the role of fats in modifying the ways in which proteins and nucleic acids interact with water--arguably the most basic of all physiological processes. Unsaturated fats are more water soluble than saturated fats, and they are involved in many problems of permeability and edema.
Suitable Fats, Unsuitable Fats: Issues in Nutrition

-
People seldom talk about the importance of fats in the nucleus of the cell, but every nucleus contains a variety of lipids--phospholipids, sphingolipids, cholesterol, even triglycerides--similar to those that are found elsewhere in the cell and in every part of the body, including the brain (Balint and Holczinger, 1978; Irvine, 2002). Phospholipids are often considered to be "membrane lipids," but they have been demonstrated in association with elements of the cell's skeleton, involved in cell division, rather than in membranes (Shogomori, et al., 1993).

Linoleic acid and arachidonic acid, which are said to "make the lipid membrane more permeable," in fact make the whole cell more permeable, by binding to the structural proteins throughout the cell, increasing their affinity for water, causing generalized swelling, as well as mitochondrial swelling (leading to reduced oxidative function or disintegration), allowing more calcium to enter the cell, activating excitatory processes, stimulating a redox shift away from oxidation and toward inflammation, leading to either (inappropriate) growth or death of the cell.

Supplementing thyroid hormone increases mitochondrial cardiolipin (Paradies and Ruggiero, 1988). Eliminating the polyunsaturated fats from the diet increases mitochondrial respiration (Rafael, et al., 1984).
Fats, functions and malfunctions.
-

​

 

[Callmestar]

Sunflower oil is mostly PUFA you shouldn't consume it or put it to be absorbed on the dermis. You probably have atrophied skin and facial muscles. Do you eat beef liver? Topical DHEA might help as well;

Progesterone Pregnenolone & DHEA - Three Youth-Associated Hormones

Blocking Tissue Destruction

The Lower Your Cortisol Levels, The Younger You Look

No I don't eat beef liver. I assume I should start?

My DHEA is very high. Out of range high on my blood tests. My Cholesterol is high and my progesterone slightly low. Would you recommend supplementing with Pregnenolone?

 

[Callmestar]

View attachment 22307
(please note that in reality there is no membrane like the one displayed in the graphic;Membranes, plasma membranes, and surfaces,https://gilbertling.org/PCP40_ling_ochsenfeld.pdf

-
All PPARs heterodimerize with the retinoid X receptor (RXR) and bind to specific regions on the DNA of target genes. These DNA sequences are termed PPREs (peroxisome proliferator hormone response elements). The DNA consensus sequence is AGGTCANAGGTCA, with N being any nucleotide. In general, this sequence occurs in the promoter region of a gene, and, when the PPAR binds its ligand, transcription of target genes is increased or decreased, depending on the gene. The RXR also forms a heterodimer with a number of other receptors (e.g., vitamin D and thyroid hormone).

The function of PPARs is modified by the precise shape of their ligand-binding domain (see below) induced by ligand binding and by a number of coactivator and corepressor proteins, the presence of which can stimulate or inhibit receptor function, respectively.[10]

Endogenous ligands for the PPARs include free fatty acids, eicosanoids and Vitamin B3. PPARγ is activated by PGJ2 (a prostaglandin) and certain members of the 5-HETE family of arachidonic acid metabolites including 5-oxo-15(S)-HETE and 5-oxo-ETE.[11] In contrast, PPARα is activated by leukotriene B4. Certain members of the 15-hydroxyeicosatetraenoic acid family of arachidonic acid metabolites, including 15(S)-HETE, 15(R)-HETE, and 15-HpETE activate to varying degrees PPAR alpha, beta/delta, and gamma.[12] PPARγ activation by agonist RS5444 may inhibit anaplastic thyroid cancer growth.[13] See[14] for a review and critique of the roles of PPAR gamma in cancer.
Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor - Wikipedia
-
"If cancer needs fat to survive and grow then it would probably produce whatever fat there is machinery for even if it does not like the result very much. FAS is also involved in synthesizing other signalling molecules (PPAR ligands) that cancer cells use. Perhaps the most relevant aspect of FAS for cancer is its fusion with the estrogen receptor, with likely mutual upregulation/activation. So, the palmitic acid production may not be the main pro-oncogenic contribution for this enzyme.
Fatty acid synthase - Wikipedia
"...The gene that codes for FAS has been investigated as a possible oncogene.[35] FAS is upregulated in breast cancers and as well as being an indicator of poor prognosis may also be worthwhile as a chemotherapeutic target.[36][37] FAS may also be involved in the production of an endogenous ligand (biochemistry) for the nuclear receptor PPARalpha, the target of the fibrate drugs for hyperlipidemia,[38] and is being investigated as a possible drug target for treating the metabolic syndrome.[39] Orlistat which is a gastrointenstinal inhibitor also inhibits FAS and has a potential as a medicine for cancer.[40][41] In some cancer cell lines, this protein has been found to be fused with estrogen receptor alpha (ER-alpha), in which the N-terminus of FAS is fused in-frame with the C-terminus of ER-alpha.[8]""
PUFA Required/essential For Cancer; Stearic Acid Is A PUFA Antagonist & Anti-cancer
-
"Substances very much like the prostaglandins, called isoprostanes and neuroprostanes, are formed spontaneously from highly unsaturated fatty acids, and are useful as indicators of the rate of lipid peroxidation in the body. Most of the products of lipid peroxidation are toxic, as a result of their reactions with proteins, DNA, and the mitochondria. The age-related glycation products that are usually blamed on sugar, are largely the result of peroxidation of the polyunsaturated fatty acids."

"PUFA and x-rays have many biological effects in common. They are immunosuppressive, but they produce their own inflammatory reactions, starting with increased permeability of capillaries, disturbed coagulation and proteolysis, and producing fibrosis and tumefaction or tissue atrophy. This isn't just a coincidence, since ionizing radiation attacks the highly unstable polyunsaturated molecules, simply accelerating processes that ordinarily happen more slowly as a result of stress and aging.

Prolonged stress eventually tends to be a self-sustaining process, impairing the efficient respiratory production of energy, converting muscle tissue to amino acids, suppressing the thyroid, and activating further mobilization of fatty acids. Fatty acids are mobilized from within the structure of cells by phospholipases, and from fat tissues by other lipases."

"Fibrosis is a generalized consequence of the abnormal capillary permeability produced by things that disrupt the clotting system. Estrogen, with its known contribution to the formation of blood clots and edema and fibrosis and tumors, achieves part of its effect by maintaining a chronically high level of free fatty acids, preferentially liberating arachidonic acid, rather than saturated fatty acids."
Fats and degeneration
-
One of the perennial theories of aging that has remained viable is the metaplasm/lipofuscin/age pigment theory, the idea that a toxic material accumulates in tissues over time. The age pigment contains proteins, cross-linked PUFA, and metals. The inhibition of proteolytic enzymes is involved in its accumulation, and the ratio of PUFA to saturated fatty acids is an important factor in its formation. Estrogen is one of the factors that can promote the formation of age pigment, probably partly because its lipolytic action increases the cells' exposure to free fatty acids. The lipofuscin contributes to inhibition of proteolysis, probably partly through increased production of free radicals and hydrogen peroxide.

The reason linseed oil and fish oil were used for making varnishes and paints was that they are "drying oils," reacting with oxygen to polymerize and harden. The physical and chemical propertiess of the oils are fairly well understood, and among the polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) the omega -3 fatty acids react most easily with oxygen. Heat, light, and moisture increase their spontaneous interactions with oxygen, and besides polymerizing, these oils produce a variety of reactive particles, including acrolein, which combine with other substances, such as cellular proteins and DNA, with highly toxic effects. At low temperatures and low oxygen concentrations these oils are not highly reactive.​

One major area of research that has been neglected involves the role of fats in modifying the ways in which proteins and nucleic acids interact with water--arguably the most basic of all physiological processes. Unsaturated fats are more water soluble than saturated fats, and they are involved in many problems of permeability and edema.
Suitable Fats, Unsuitable Fats: Issues in Nutrition

-
People seldom talk about the importance of fats in the nucleus of the cell, but every nucleus contains a variety of lipids--phospholipids, sphingolipids, cholesterol, even triglycerides--similar to those that are found elsewhere in the cell and in every part of the body, including the brain (Balint and Holczinger, 1978; Irvine, 2002). Phospholipids are often considered to be "membrane lipids," but they have been demonstrated in association with elements of the cell's skeleton, involved in cell division, rather than in membranes (Shogomori, et al., 1993).

Linoleic acid and arachidonic acid, which are said to "make the lipid membrane more permeable," in fact make the whole cell more permeable, by binding to the structural proteins throughout the cell, increasing their affinity for water, causing generalized swelling, as well as mitochondrial swelling (leading to reduced oxidative function or disintegration), allowing more calcium to enter the cell, activating excitatory processes, stimulating a redox shift away from oxidation and toward inflammation, leading to either (inappropriate) growth or death of the cell.

Supplementing thyroid hormone increases mitochondrial cardiolipin (Paradies and Ruggiero, 1988). Eliminating the polyunsaturated fats from the diet increases mitochondrial respiration (Rafael, et al., 1984).
Fats, functions and malfunctions.
-

​

Interesting in regarding to the X-rays. I had a number of CT scans on my neck and head at one point. I wonder if they may have caused some speeding up of tissue atrophy.