Pregnenolone Versus Estrogen - A Very Simple Question

[gilson dantas]

@Mittir
Sorry for the simplicity of this question:
Suppose a body under stress, I mean, with the presence of estrogen and unsaturated fats in their tissues. And of course, the thyroid is impaired [low]. Now suppose this person use pregnenolone [as supplement].
The question is: if the metabolism is under stress, promoting production of estrogen, why the body will not use this "raw material" [pregnenolone] for the manufacture of more estrogen?
Yes, we know that pregnenolone is a protective hormone and estrogen is toxic, a stress hormone. They are antagonistic.
But in the metabolic sequence of manufacture of the steroidal hormones, pregnenolone is also precursor of estrogen.
Why will not happen that metabolic conversion [pregnenolone-stress hormones]? What are the metabolic impairments - generally speaking - for that malefic conversion does not occur?

 

[Rand56]

The question is: if the metabolism is under stress, promoting production of estrogen, why the body will not use this "raw material" [pregnenolone] for the manufacture of more estrogen?

I'd like to know the answer to this too. I've tried higher doses of Preg before...50.....10o....and even a shorter stint at 200 mg's per day. Even though it boosted my mood a bit, I felt more bloated and gained more weight. Nowaday's I only stick to the Preg dose in Pansterone.

 

[Mittir]

People asked RP similar question and the way i understand his reply is
that progesterone directly opposes estrogen in 8 different ways.
Progesterone lowering estrogen is lowering the stress thus
lowering the cause that causes conversion of progesterone to estrogen.

Another issue of so called "Pregnenolone steal theory" RP explained
that when progesterone and pregnenolone are high body prevent
stress systems. If for some reason pregesterone and pregnenolone
are reduced body will try to increase it's amount if there is enough
resources like blood sugar, cholesterole, thyroid, vitamin A etc.
So, body's first reaction is to increase anti stress hormone in response to stress.
If that does not happen body starts making pregenolone from cholesterol with
the help of thyroid and vitamin A and then makes cortisol from that.

What happens if body does not have enough cholesterol to make
cortisol or not enough vitamin A and thyroid to make pregnenolone?
One of the function of cortisol is to maintain blood sugar.
When blood sugar is low stress hormone cortisol rises to keep
blood sugar high by making sugar from protein and lowering
energy production. If cortisol does not do this in stress then there will be
whole host of damages to our body and in extreme low blood sugar
body shuts down. Just because there are pregenolone and progesterone
that does not mean body will start converting all of it to stress hormone.
Body has a purpose for every action and it is all interconnected.

 

[Mittir]

I'd like to know the answer to this too. I've tried higher doses of Preg before...50.....10o....and even a shorter stint at 200 mg's per day. Even though it boosted my mood a bit, I felt more bloated and gained more weight. Nowaday's I only stick to the Preg dose in Pansterone.

One possible explanation is that sudden change in cortisol and Aldosterone level
causing mineral imbalance. I vaguely remember that people needed more salt
to counter side effects from either pregnenolone or progestrone.

 

[gilson dantas]

Very good @Mittir. I think it is a very correct [and dialectical] ideia: the body is a totality and "is all interconnected".
But I don´t know if I undestood [my problem, not yours]:
What happens if I have low thyroid AND I use pregnenolone supplement? In that case I am helping to produce more cortison [and estrogen]?
In that case the best healing strategy is to heal thyroid and AFTER to use pregnenolone?

 

[Rand56]

One possible explanation is that sudden change in cortisol and Aldosterone level
causing mineral imbalance. I vaguely remember that people needed more salt
to counter side effects from either pregnenolone or progestrone.

Thanks Mittir. I probably wasn't doing enough salt back when I was doing those higher doses, plus I wasn't doing enough work on my gut to lessen the endotoxin load either, which is something I am working more on now.

 

[Mittir]

I avoid supplements, i only use few supplements that i can not go without.
I was not in a hurry and i like steady and continuous improvement, slow or fast.

One approach is to improve your diet, getting all the nutrients needed
with gut friendly foods. That will be the starting point.
If food does not improve thyroid function you may consider
adding thyroid supplements or natural thyroid like chicken neck
soup or fish head soup. Then you can consider adding pregnenolone
if your cholesterol level is low or pregnenolone level is low
If adding pregnenolone makes you feel better, good sleep quality
and mental calmness then continue the supplement.
If it makes things worse then stop doing it.

Frequent feeding with vitamin and mineral rich foods
and healthy liver glycogen storage will
keep most of the stress hormones in check. If you take thyroid
supplements and do not eat enough nutrients to
support that metabolism, in a short time your stress hormones will be
high and thyroid function will be low and stress hormone will
cause conversion of pregnenolone to cortsiol and in the
absence of good thyroid function progesterone will turn to estrogen.
So, pregnenolone and thyroid does not work in vacume.
I think it is safer to focus on food and slowly experiment with
hormone supplement if you are in relatively good health.
Interplay of stress and anti stress hormones is continually
changing, it is not fixed.

 

[Braveheart]

I avoid supplements, i only use few supplements that i can not go without.
I was not in a hurry and i like steady and continuous improvement, slow or fast.

One approach is to improve your diet, getting all the nutrients needed
with gut friendly foods. That will be the starting point.
If food does not improve thyroid function you may consider
adding thyroid supplements or natural thyroid like chicken neck
soup or fish head soup. Then you can consider adding pregnenolone
if your cholesterol level is low or pregnenolone level is low
If adding pregnenolone makes you feel better, good sleep quality
and mental calmness then continue the supplement.
If it makes things worse then stop doing it.

Frequent feeding with vitamin and mineral rich foods
and healthy liver glycogen storage will
keep most of the stress hormones in check. If you take thyroid
supplements and do not eat enough nutrients to
support that metabolism, in a short time your stress hormones will be
high and thyroid function will be low and stress hormone will
cause conversion of pregnenolone to cortsiol and in the
absence of good thyroid function progesterone will turn to estrogen.
So, pregnenolone and thyroid does not work in vacume.
I think it is safer to focus on food and slowly experiment with
hormone supplement if you are in relatively good health.
Interplay of stress and anti stress hormones is continually
changing, it is not fixed.

it's the best approach

 

[gilson dantas]

@Mittir, I think your approach is very very cientific. I like it.

I think it is safer to focus on food and slowly experiment with
hormone supplement if you are in relatively good health.

In my particular case I need to balance the hormones, to combat the stress hormones, but at the same time I need to fight against a prostate tumor;
so I must to design or to plan a strategy that must be as efficient as possible.

 

[marteagal]

Thank you @gilson dantas for asking this question which I wanted to raise, too, after reading @Giraffe's discovery of the following Peat sentence: "If your cholesterol is low and your thyroid is low, then you can’t make any of these [pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA and cortisol]. If you don’t make enough of the other steroids, then you will turn any trace of progesterone or pregnenolone into cortisol and get excess cortisol [...]"

And thank you, @Mittir, for taking the time to share your thoughts and expertise!

I have a related question: When a pro-metabolic nutrition + supplements such as ADEK (including 5000 IU vitamin A), ~250-500 mg B3, progesterone (~18 mg) + different thyroid supplementation approaches (NDT vs. synthetic T4+T3 vs. synthetic T3 only), have utterly failed in lowering high cholesterol (300 mg/dl) or correcting other hypometabolic symptoms, is it then justified to supplement pregnenolone as a last resort? My idea was: Although T3 and vitamin A is available, conversion of cholesterol into youthful steroid hormones is somehow blocked and the reasons are difficult to track down (not deciphered in the course of the last 1.5 years) ... so why not give the system pregnenolone? ... maybe the body is still capable of converting it into progesterone and other protective steroids which might then feed back and correct the root causes of the conversion problem ... [I don't know if this is more than just wishful thinking]

Or would exogenous pregnenolone (100 mg) even further pile up cholesterol? Do you think a blood test is mandatory in this situation?

And, coming back to the above quote that has shocked me ... I suppose, not all forum members who have experienced great effects from pregnenolone had had good metabolism/thyroid function in the first place (?) And does that mean, Peat's quote may refer to a rather extreme situation where the person has very little or almost zero T3 ("myxedema coma") ?

 

[Mittir]

Thank you @gilson dantas for asking this question which I wanted to raise, too, after reading @Giraffe's discovery of the following Peat sentence: "If your cholesterol is low and your thyroid is low, then you can’t make any of these [pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA and cortisol]. If you don’t make enough of the other steroids, then you will turn any trace of progesterone or pregnenolone into cortisol and get excess cortisol [...]"

And thank you, @Mittir, for taking the time to share your thoughts and expertise!

I have a related question: When a pro-metabolic nutrition + supplements such as ADEK (including 5000 IU vitamin A), ~250-500 mg B3, progesterone (~18 mg) + different thyroid supplementation approaches (NDT vs. synthetic T4+T3 vs. synthetic T3 only), have utterly failed in lowering high cholesterol (300 mg/dl) or correcting other hypometabolic symptoms, is it then justified to supplement pregnenolone as a last resort? My idea was: Although T3 and vitamin A is available, conversion of cholesterol into youthful steroid hormones is somehow blocked and the reasons are difficult to track down (not deciphered in the course of the last 1.5 years) ... so why not give the system pregnenolone? ... maybe the body is still capable of converting it into progesterone and other protective steroids which might then feed back and correct the root causes of the conversion problem ... [I don't know if this is more than just wishful thinking]

Or would exogenous pregnenolone (100 mg) even further pile up cholesterol? Do you think a blood test is mandatory in this situation?

And, coming back to the above quote that has shocked me ... I suppose, not all forum members who have experienced great effects from pregnenolone had had good metabolism/thyroid function in the first place (?) And does that mean, Peat's quote may refer to a rather extreme situation where the person has very little or almost zero T3 ("myxedema coma") ?

RP has mentioned that supplementation of pregnenolone increases synthesis
of pregnenolone, that should lower cholesterol by the conversion of cholesterol
to pregnenolone. RP thinks pregnenolone is very safe, even in very high dose.
I never tried any of the hormones, so i do not have any personal experience.
Only thing i can vaguely remember is that pregnenolone increases requirement
of sodium and possibly potassium by lowering aldsosterone. I think it is worth
experimenting with pregnenolone.

Production of Progesterone depends on energy production and blood sugar
level. Do you have steady blood sugar now? Stored PUFA can interfere
with energy production and it may take 2-3 years for body to get rid
of PUFA. I think i read a 2004 report that in France they do not
give medication unless total cholesterol is above 300.

Most importantly if your liver is not healthy enough to store
glucose then extra metabolism can increase stress hormone
and blocking anti-stress hormone production. Have you noticed
steady improvement in health after adopting Peaty diet?
I believe a gut friendly allergen free diet resolves most
health issues. Healthy gut also improves liver function.

 

[tara]

@Mittir, I think your approach is very very cientific. I like it.

+1

 

[marteagal]

Thanks again for your answers!

My questions only partially relate to me - I asked with respect to my mother - although I'm in a similar situation. No plan seems to work out ("supplement inertia") ... Yes, her blood sugar is stable except for few exceptions. The PUFA burden certainly plays a role. There are also other health issues that may interfere with efficient metabolism but I have hijacked the thread enough ... and we probably just need to be patient.

 

[gilson dantas]

Thank you @gilson dantas for asking this question which I wanted to raise, too, after reading @Giraffe's discovery of the following Peat sentence: "If your cholesterol is low and your thyroid is low, then you can’t make any of these [pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA and cortisol]. If you don’t make enough of the other steroids, then you will turn any trace of progesterone or pregnenolone into cortisol and get excess cortisol [...]"

I don´t know if I undestand: "if thyroid is low, then you can´t make cortisol"; and then: "if you don ´t make enough of the other steroids [...] you turn any trace of progesterone or pregnenolone into cortisol". I mean: if I can´t make cortisol how I will make cortisol?

 

[Mittir]

Body makes cortisol from cholesterol in adrenal glands
and it requires help of thyroid and supply of cholesterol.
When that fails body makes cortisol from existing
pregnenolon, progesterone etc. Body has preference
of keeping blood sugar up and cortisol does that in stress.

 

[Orion]

RP has mentioned that supplementation of pregnenolone increases synthesis
of pregnenolone, that should lower cholesterol by the conversion of cholesterol
to pregnenolone. RP thinks pregnenolone is very safe, even in very high dose.
I never tried any of the hormones, so i do not have any personal experience.
Only thing i can vaguely remember is that pregnenolone increases requirement
of sodium and possibly potassium by lowering aldsosterone. I think it is worth
experimenting with pregnenolone.

Production of Progesterone depends on energy production and blood sugar
level. Do you have steady blood sugar now? Stored PUFA can interfere
with energy production and it may take 2-3 years for body to get rid
of PUFA. I think i read a 2004 report that in France they do not
give medication unless total cholesterol is above 300.

Most importantly if your liver is not healthy enough to store
glucose then extra metabolism can increase stress hormone
and blocking anti-stress hormone production. Have you noticed
steady improvement in health after adopting Peaty diet?
I believe a gut friendly allergen free diet resolves most
health issues. Healthy gut also improves liver function.

This is the catch-22 for me, whenever I add something that increasing metabolism; DHEA, pregnenolone, DHT, caffeine, MB, aspirin, B3, K2, etc... my liver can't keep up with supplying sugar, stress hormones go up and I will have horrible sleep and oily skin acne increases dramatically. If I stop these supps, metabolism will lower, liver will have enough glycogen stored and I sleep better, acne calms down but persists. I want my liver to function better, but trying to make it function better, makes me worse over all...

It seems for me I have to add things maybe in very small increments for long stretches of time to see benefit. I have been very low PUFA for about 5-6yrs now, but my liver still seems very sluggish, my temps are never below 98.2 and heart-rate is always ~80, so I suspect my thyroid is ok again.

Wish there was a tried and true protocol for liver glycogen storage health. I have tried large caffeine doses, to flush the liver, but that equals huge adrenaline/cortisol dumps for; anxiety, no sleep, ACNE! I am really starting to see that acne may be connected to cortisol/adrenaline, running on stress hormones

I will add that taurine really seems to help liver store sugar, but I don't see that as a cure.

 

[gilson dantas]

Body makes cortisol from cholesterol in adrenal glands
and it requires help of thyroid and supply of cholesterol.
When that fails body makes cortisol from existing
pregnenolon, progesterone etc. Body has preference
of keeping blood sugar up and cortisol does that in stress.

Very well argued, @Mittir!! Thanks again!

 

[Mittir]

This is the catch-22 for me, whenever I add something that increasing metabolism; DHEA, pregnenolone, DHT, caffeine, MB, aspirin, B3, K2, etc... my liver can't keep up with supplying sugar, stress hormones go up and I will have horrible sleep and oily skin acne increases dramatically. If I stop these supps, metabolism will lower, liver will have enough glycogen stored and I sleep better, acne calms down but persists. I want my liver to function better, but trying to make it function better, makes me worse over all...

It seems for me I have to add things maybe in very small increments for long stretches of time to see benefit. I have been very low PUFA for about 5-6yrs now, but my liver still seems very sluggish, my temps are never below 98.2 and heart-rate is always ~80, so I suspect my thyroid is ok again.

Wish there was a tried and true protocol for liver glycogen storage health. I have tried large caffeine doses, to flush the liver, but that equals huge adrenaline/cortisol dumps for; anxiety, no sleep, ACNE! I am really starting to see that acne may be connected to cortisol/adrenaline, running on stress hormones

I will add that taurine really seems to help liver store sugar, but I don't see that as a cure.

I had similar experience with supplements increasing metabolism.
I use Sleep quality as the ultimate test, anything that improves.
sleep is added and anything that disrupts sleep is removed.
Another problem with increased metabolism is that i have
to constantly eat nutritious food to supply nutrients
needed for metabolism. That will cause people to add
10 more supplements for that. I believe supplement
driven approach works for people in good health, especially
young athletic type with good dietary habits.
Allergen in supplement is a big problem.

I think for 30 plus people with tons of stored pufa
it is much more difficult to make quick improvement.
It is quite difficult to limit pufa intake below 4 grams unless
i am very careful. Looking at PUFA intake by countries
it seems that there is a huge difference in health
with people getting 4 grams of PUFA and 10 grams of PUFA.
Also using Niacinamide/aspirin and frequent feeding
lower PUFA burning. Cronometer has been very helpful
in counting PUFA.

In my experience food quality has been the biggest
factor in liver health. There are so many problematic
food around us it is daunting task figuring out good
quality food without allergens and irritants.
Food diary has been very helpful. Sugared
milk Coffee with 1-2 tbs of sugar 2-3 grams of
instant coffee 4-5 cups a day improved liver function
for me. Niacinamide 50-100 mg 2-3 times helped
liver function. Small dose half to 1 mg Cyproheptadine
improves sleep quality. Raw carrot salad in the afternoon
separate from the meal was very helpful. Low dose
tetracycline had more dramatic improvement.
Some people do not do well with carrot salad
for them cooked bamboo shoots or cooked mushroom
can be helpful.

 

[raypeatclips]

@Mittir How did you determine whether something was improving your liver function? You said your liver improved on ~15 grams instant coffee a day, roughly 100mg caffeine?

 

[Mittir]

@raypeatclips

That is about 500 mg caffeine. I used to take around 20-25 grams of
instant coffee daily. I had high ALT and AST number when i started
eating a lot of sugar and i also lost about 14 lbs in a month or two.
Quick weight loss are known to increase ALT and AST.
My liver number went down when i continued with high instant
coffee. Visually i have noticed coffee and other bitter supplements
gives an extra smoothness and shininess to face, similar to one
i get the day after i take 1000 IU mixed tocopherol vitamin E.