Pregnant Cows = High Estrogen Dairy Fat?

[postman]

But what are the total amounts? I think a man can take a little progesterone and be ok. Many men on here take 1 or two drops a day of a progesterone supplement so like 3-6mg. I think the total amounts are important.

Yeah personally I think it's lunacy for a man to supplement progesterone. Transgirls take it to get fuller rounder breasts. Even Ray himself says it can temporarily shrink the penis.

 

[postman]

milk contains androgens too , the hormones in milk would balance the bad effect of estrogen

The amount of androgens are so minimal they have zero effect

 

[nwo2012]

Yes this was discussed a while back.
Exposure To Exogenous Estrogen Through Intake Of Commercial Milk Produced From Pregnant Cows
Final post puts it in context. I think you are all panicking over nothing, which is the usual around this forum.
I would be more concerned with the possibility of developing folate antibodies through cows milk consumption as Travis has discussed at length.

 

[cyclops]

Yeah personally I think it's lunacy for a man to supplement progesterone. Transgirls take it to get fuller rounder breasts. Even Ray himself says it can temporarily shrink the penis.

From what I gather the dose really matters. In smaller doses men say it lowers estrogen and seems to be androgenic

 

[Aymen]

Yeah personally I think it's lunacy for a man to supplement progesterone. Transgirls take it to get fuller rounder breasts. Even Ray himself says it can temporarily shrink the penis.

 

[nwo2012]

Yeah personally I think it's lunacy for a man to supplement progesterone. Transgirls take it to get fuller rounder breasts. Even Ray himself says it can temporarily shrink the penis.

Because we are unwittingly supplementing estrogen from the environment, as small amount of progesterone will do more good than harm in males. And I mean on occasion, not daily.

 

[postman]

From what I gather the dose really matters. In smaller doses men say it lowers estrogen and seems to be androgenic

So for what reason does milk from pregnant cows lower both testosterone and estrogen levels in humans, if it's not the progesterone?

 

[Aymen]

Yes this was discussed a while back.
Exposure To Exogenous Estrogen Through Intake Of Commercial Milk Produced From Pregnant Cows
Final post puts it in context. I think you are all panicking over nothing, which is the usual around this forum.
I would be more concerned with the possibility of developing folate antibodies through cows milk consumption as Travis has discussed at length.

same here , what i,m aware of is the folate antibodies through cows milk consumption .

 

[nwo2012]

So for what reason does milk from pregnant cows lower both testosterone and estrogen levels in humans, if it's not the progesterone?

Where is the evidence?

This is from the older thread, and sums it up nicely.

@haidut What do you make of this study?

Here is my take on this:

The Truth About Hormones in Milk - Science Driven Nutrition
Here is a good article from Brad Dieter, PhD, dispelling some of the myths of drinking milk, including estrogen. Now he does cite studies in rats showing that drinking milk with high estrogen content did nothing to their serum estrogen levels. Unfortunately he did not address the study posted on this thread. It was not until rats consumed 1000 times the estrogen of non-pregnant lactating cows that their serum estrogen levels were elevated. Whether rats metabolism of estrogen in food is different than in humans, I don't know.

One thing that he mentions is the fact that most hormones ingested through food have no biological activity. Oral anabolic steroids need to have a methyl group attached to oppose the liver's ability to detoxify them. Otherwise there will be no discernable increase in serum steroid levels.

Now with study on this thread, there is no question that urine levels of estrogen will be high, as the liver will glucoronidate it to be sent to the kidneys for excretion. So in that respect, I don't think that the authors of the study (or anybody for that matter) can seriously discuss the increased urine concentrations as if it is a problem, as it is irrelevant. The only thing that truly matters is whether a food actually increases blood levels of estrogen.

The problem with this study is it is not a randomized controlled study with a control group. Several studies show that the very act of eating anything can transiently lower testosterone/alter hormone profiles. See below...

Habito RC, Ball MJ (2001) Postprandial changes in sex hormones after meals of different composition. Metabolism 50:505–511

Caronia LM, Dwyer AA, Hayden D, Amati F, Pitteloud N, Hayes FJ.Abrupt Decrease in Serum Testosterone Levels After an Oral Glucose Load in Men: Implications for Screening for Hypogonadism. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2012 Jul 17.

Meikle AW, Stringham JD, Woodward MG, Mcmurry MP (1990) Effects of a fat-containing meal on sex hormones in men. Metabolism 39:943–946.

So with the available research showing that eating basically any food transiently changes hormone levels, one has to ask the question, is the study that this thread is questioning simply showing postprandial changes of hormone levels in serum, while showing urinary excretion of the estrone sulfate from the milk of pregnant lactating cows? Are the estrogen levels in the milk drinkers any different than what we would observe in people eating any other type of food?

The fact that drinking milk in the study lowers LH/gonadotropins doesn't mean much either, when considered in the context that postprandial LH/gonadotropins will be lowered after eating basically any foods as well. Fasting increases LH and then eating a meal decreases it.

Another thing is that changes in serum hormones may have more to do with the concentration of solutes in serum in relation to fluid/albumin levels, which change based on normal activities like exercise, eating, etc. Differences in blood volume, dilation and constriction of vessels can have an observable effect on hormone profiles in serum, but this does not mean that there was actually an increase or decrease, just that the ratio of hormones to blood volume changed.

So I would say that the increased serum estrogen in the subjects of this study is concerning. But whether it is from the dairy itself or just eating food in general is yet to be determined, since there is no control group in the study. A couple of interesting things that the researchers could have done is to (1) make it randomized and controlled (2) include a control for one of the following: a control that was isocalorically matched and protein capped but ate no dairy products at all, a control that consumed the same amount of milk but in lactating non-pregnant cows, a control that drank the same amount of non-dairy milk products (soy, almond, etc).

Without a randomized controlled study that includes a control, these authors cannot seriously make any conclusions.

Finally, I would say that ultimately acute hormone responses to food are not what is important. It is basal hormone levels after a fast that matters. It's the same as saying that the postprandial thermic effect of food trumps the basal metabolic rate, which it doesn't. Since the study in question is not testing waking estrogen/testosterone levels after fasting, we don't know whether or not drinking milk has any true lasting effect on hormone levels.

 

[Elephanto]

milk contains androgens too , the hormones in milk would balance the bad effect of estrogen

You just proved that we don't absorb estrogen from milk, why would we absorb androgens or progesterone ?

Only thing that is missing from that study though, is the quantity of milk the mice drank. In the human study (second post of the thread) they drank 600 mL and serum levels of progesterone + estrone increased. Yours is also from the "Journal of Dairy Science" and funded by the American Dairy Science Association.

Yes this was discussed a while back.
Exposure To Exogenous Estrogen Through Intake Of Commercial Milk Produced From Pregnant Cows
Final post puts it in context. I think you are all panicking over nothing, which is the usual around this forum.
I would be more concerned with the possibility of developing folate antibodies through cows milk consumption as Travis has discussed at length.

The only counter-argument to the "significant reduction in Testosterone in men after drinking milk" in this thread is a study where 43% of the men are diabetic and the glucose loading was of 75 grams. The mean decrease (even considering that 43% of the subjects don't tolerate glucose) was of 17%. Seems like the lack of glucose tolerance would contribute to more systemic negative effects than if all subjects were non-diabetic.

In the milk study, despite being non-diabetic subjects, the mean decrease was of 18% and the sugar content is of only 30g (so 15g pure glucose), mixed with fat and proteins, which decrease the glycemic index.

I don't know, it doesn't seem like a fair comparison. A similar quantity of glucose (even if we want to disregard the lack of fat and proteins) and non-diabetic subjects would be more relevant.

 

[postman]

Where is the evidence?

This is from the older thread, and sums it up nicely.

This is a pretty small study but at least it's done on humans. Sci-Hub | Exposure to exogenous estrogen through intake of commercial milk produced from pregnant cows | 10.1111/j.1442-200X.2009.02890.x

 

[Nebula]

Personally I've only ever noticed estrogenic or anti androgenic effects from dairy if it's not being fully digested and liver function is not optimal. The liver should be able to deactivate exogenous estrogen if it's working well. I think high dairy consumption like Peat and Danny Roddy recommends is not a good idea unless it's very high quality and digestion is already optimal.

I don't consider milk a good staple unless metabolism is already very high and magnesium levels are also very good. Lately I just eat a little cheese and focus more on getting magnesium.

 

[nwo2012]

You just proved that we don't absorb estrogen from milk, why would we absorb androgens or progesterone ?

Only thing that is missing from that study though, is the quantity of milk the mice drank. In the human study (second post of the thread) they drank 600 mL and serum levels of progesterone + estrone increased. Yours is also from the "Journal of Dairy Science" and funded by the American Dairy Science Association.



The only counter-argument to the "significant reduction in Testosterone in men after drinking milk" in this thread is a study where 43% of the men are diabetic and the glucose loading was of 75 grams. The mean decrease (even considering that 43% of the subjects don't tolerate glucose) was of 17%. Seems like the lack of glucose tolerance would contribute to more systemic negative effects than if all subjects were non-diabetic.

In the milk study, despite being non-diabetic subjects, the mean decrease was of 18% and the sugar content is of only 30g (so 15g pure glucose), mixed with fat and proteins, which decrease the glycemic index.

I don't know, it doesn't seem like a fair comparison. A similar quantity of glucose (even if we want to disregard the lack of fat and proteins) and non-diabetic subjects would be more relevant.

Agree that would make it more relevant. Im not sure he was comparing sugars, it was more a case of the fact that postprandial serum levels may not be an accurate way to tell what the long-term hormonal status would be.

 

[bboone]

It's also ironic how young alt-right activists have coined the term "soyboy" but when you look at pictures of their meet-ups where they carry plastic milk jugs with pride they all, without exception, fit the description of a numale/manchild, visibly very low in testosterone. I think the term milkboy should exist too.

i think you're confusing cause and effect here lol. i think the numale/manchildicity lead to the political conviction and accompanied symbolic milk consumption. that said, the non-milk consuming political counterpart to the alt righties arguably look worse, so i think it's more a case of low testosterone/poor hormonal profile leading people towards modern political, impotent political activism. you have to be brain damaged to some extent to care about contemporary american politics or even believe in the democratic system. personally, i feel worse when i consume very large amounts of dairy (2L+ milk, cheese, ice cream) in a day, but moderate amounts have seemingly no ill effects. then again, i'm not american and only drink organic milk so this may have something to do with it

It's very ironic. I definitely think dairy is the most feminizing food, way more than soy.

if someone were to derive as large a portion of their total caloric intake from soy products as people regularly do from dairy, i suspect the noticeable effects would lead you to reconsider that statement lol. soy is without a doubt highly estrogenic, and while too much progesterone may temporarily shrink your penis and lead to a youthful, "soft and cute" appearance, men with high estrogen are usually repulsive in every way possible. fat, huge ***s, no hair, very fat faces, this hopeless, desparing look in their eyes, very soft, childlike hands and testy behavior.

a high progesterone normal testosterone type person would be pretty much any male model (of course these guys have great genetics, bone structure, and hormonal balance but they still exhibit traits of high progesterone). a good example of someone with high estrogen and low testosterone would be chris chan, even before he started actually taking estrogen pills, of course

all in all, i think it's futile to try to decode someone's hormonal make-up and ascribe it to a set dietary protocol. up to a certain age, genetics seem to regulate this way more than food intake, unless you are eating far too few calories or are doing some sort of highly specific diet like veganism. the most "masculine presenting" men i know all eat high caloric diets with no focus on protein, huge amounts of PUFA and drink alcohol several times a week. they usually consume a lot of sugar and don't read any studies either lol

 

[lvysaur]

I would be more concerned with the possibility of developing folate antibodies through cows milk consumption as Travis has discussed at length.

Where's the post on this?

 

[Alex Jaramillo]

I read somewhere that farmers keep cows pregnant 24/7 (to make more money) and that makes the fat they these cows produce in dairy products very high in estrogen, unnaturally so. Meaning dairy fat should normally be good for us to consume hormonally, but it is effectively bad because they are kept unnaturally pregnant all year round. Should we be concerned about consuming dairy fat for this reason?

I think you’re on to something. I noticed when I cut out dairy and ate only meat fruits and veggies. I was also fasting at the time but I think cutting out dairy though made me more androgenic and less estrogenic.

 

[cyclops]

I think you’re on to something. I noticed when I cut out dairy and ate only meat fruits and veggies. I was also fasting at the time but I think cutting out dairy though made me more androgenic and less estrogenic.

Have you tried fat free dairy only? Maybe that would work well for you too.

 

[Alex Jaramillo]

Have you tried fat free dairy only? Maybe that would work well for you too.

I have but I notice better effects from complete elimination. It just went under the radar for a little while haha

 

[bboone]

I have but I notice better effects from complete elimination. It just went under the radar for a little while haha

something i've noticed during periods i've cut dairy is that my overall strength and bloating goes down, but i get better at bodyweight exercises

 

[lampofred]

I have always felt much better/stronger drinking whole milk over reduced fat milk, but overall, I think milk does decrease testosterone in favor of progesterone. But not sure if lowered testosterone is always a bad thing.