Potato supplemented by a good lot of buttermilk - Ireland in old times

[Apple]

The Rev. Howard Malcolm, who had travelled much in Europe, Asia, and America, said : “ The finest specimens of the human body I ever beheld I saw in Ireland, and they had never tasted animal food.” It is reported that farmers in England declare that their Irish labourers who are temperate are capable of a much greater amount of labour on potatoes and buttermilk than their flesh-eating English labourers.

Adam Smith, in his Wealth of Nations, wrote : “The chairmen, porters, and coalheavers, the strongest men in the British dominions, are said to be, the greater part of them, from the lowest rank of people in Ireland, which are generally fed from the potato. No food can afford a more decisive proof of its nourishing quality or of its being peculiarly suitable to the health of the human constitution.” The potato was supplemented generally by a good lot of buttermilk.

The miners of Cornwall, whose chief food was potatoes, were remarkably strong, well-made, and laborious

The Scotch, on the east coast, lived on oatmeal, milk, and vegetables. “ Flesh is never seen in the houses of the common farmers, except at a baptism, a wedding, Christmas, or Shrovetide.” Yet they “ are strong and active, sleep sound, and live to a good old age.”

Professor Forbes made experiments on more than 800 persons, and his tables showed that the Irish are more developed than the Scotch, and the Scotch than the English.

PS:
“ Tea and coffee are the sure destroyers of the nervous and muscular system.”
"STRENGTH AND DIET" 1905

 

[Kvothe]

The Rev. Howard Malcolm, who had travelled much in Europe, Asia, and America, said : “ The finest specimens of the human body I ever beheld I saw in Ireland, and they had never tasted animal food.” It is reported that farmers in England declare that their Irish labourers who are temperate are capable of a much greater amount of labour on potatoes and buttermilk than their flesh-eating English labourers.

Adam Smith, in his Wealth of Nations, wrote : “The chairmen, porters, and coalheavers, the strongest men in the British dominions, are said to be, the greater part of them, from the lowest rank of people in Ireland, which are generally fed from the potato. No food can afford a more decisive proof of its nourishing quality or of its being peculiarly suitable to the health of the human constitution.” The potato was supplemented generally by a good lot of buttermilk.

The miners of Cornwall, whose chief food was potatoes, were remarkably strong, well-made, and laborious

The Scotch, on the east coast, lived on oatmeal, milk, and vegetables. “ Flesh is never seen in the houses of the common farmers, except at a baptism, a wedding, Christmas, or Shrovetide.” Yet they “ are strong and active, sleep sound, and live to a good old age.”

Professor Forbes made experiments on more than 800 persons, and his tables showed that the Irish are more developed than the Scotch, and the Scotch than the English.

PS:
Tea, Coffee and alcohol will ruin your health.
"STRENGTH AND DIET"

He almost got me, but lost me right at the end.

 

[Sefton10]

They Shall Not Hurt Or Destroy - Chapter 14 - Healthy, Wealthy, and Wise - The Writings of Vasu S. Murti: Human Rights - Social Justice - Animal Rights - Peace - Love - Compassion - Kindness - Gentleness - Religion - Soul - Spirit - Knowledge - W

 

[username]

Well sure. Milk provides a lot of what meat would otherwise provide with other possible benefits. I'm not religious, so by solely observing the human animal in nature it is quite evident that meat eating has been fundamental at some point in the history of our species. I'd be weary to draw too many conclusions from some nationalities or cultures that have done well consuming less meat.

 

[InChristAlone]

That far North they were getting very little vitamin D therefore getting calcium and a form of calcitriol from potatoes was necessary. Plus they had balanced their phosphorus intake as Peat suggests is essential.

 

[Sefton10]

Well sure. Milk provides a lot of what meat would otherwise provide with other possible benefits. I'm not religious, so by solely observing the human animal in nature it is quite evident that meat eating has been fundamental at some point in the history of our species. I'd be weary to draw too many conclusions from some nationalities or cultures that have done well consuming less meat.

I think if a lot of us had to kill and butcher our own meat it would be a different ball game (I'm by no means vegan/vegetarian by the way, just find this stuff interesting).

"The gorge of a cat, for instance, will rise at the smell of a mouse or a piece of raw flesh, but not at the aroma of fruit. If a man can take delight in pouncing upon a bird, tear its still living body apart with his teeth, sucking the warm blood, one might infer that Nature had provided him with carnivorous instinct, but the very thought of doing such a thing makes him shudder. On the other hand, a bunch of luscious grapes makes his mouth water, and even in the absence of hunger, he will eat fruit to gratify taste."

 

[Vanset]

I think if a lot of us had to kill and butcher our own meat it would be a different ball game (I'm by no means vegan/vegetarian by the way, just find this stuff interesting).

"The gorge of a cat, for instance, will rise at the smell of a mouse or a piece of raw flesh, but not at the aroma of fruit. If a man can take delight in pouncing upon a bird, tear its still living body apart with his teeth, sucking the warm blood, one might infer that Nature had provided him with carnivorous instinct, but the very thought of doing such a thing makes him shudder. On the other hand, a bunch of luscious grapes makes his mouth water, and even in the absence of hunger, he will eat fruit to gratify taste."

also humans posses an enzyme called trehalase, which is used to break down trehalose, a carbohydrate present in many different bug species. perhaps it's a hint of our evolutionary history. i don't think this carbohydrate is present in plants in any meaningful way. kids like to catch bugs and store them, just not eat them

i also find this interesting. thanks for the link.

i guess if you like this whole topic then i found a nice little channel on yt called PlantPositive that somewhat delves into this whole evolutionary angle of nutrition and diets of various native populations around the world. guy is biased as hell, but it's still interesting imo.

by no means a vegetarian or vegan as well

 

[Apple]

"Adam Smith, in his Wealth of Nations, mentions that the most beautiful women of the British dominions are said to be, the greater part of them, from the lower rank of the people of Ireland, who are generally fed on potatoes. The peasantry of Lancashire and Cheshire, whose fare was somewhat similar, have been likewise praised for comeliness."

 

[Korven]

I find it funny that there were carnivore vs vegan debates going on 150 years ago. Nothing has changed since then.

James H Salisbury was the original carnivore MD and wrote the book 'The Relation of Alimentation and Disease' in 1888, here are a few excerpts:

"Vegetable Dyspepsia, or the first Stage of Consumption. This arises from the too exclusive and long-continued use of vegetable or amylaceous and saccharine foods and fruits, or either of them. The stomach is the first organ to suffer. In man this organ is mainly designed for digesting lean meats. It may be called a purely carnivorous organ. It requires lean meats to excite normal quantity of healthy secretions in its glandular follicles for digestion, and the healthy excitation of these secretions stimulates the muscular-fibres to maintain those normal downward peristaltic movements which are necessary for physiological digestion and transmission".

"Hence the too exclusive and long-continued use of vegetable, and especially amylaceous and saccharine food, fills the stomach with materials which do not stimulate it even enough to pass them along to where they are digested, in consequence of which they lie so long in this organ that fermentative processes supervene little by little, and we have the stomach filled with carbonic acid gas, sugar, alcohol, acid and alcoholic and acid yeast plants. These products of fermentation soon begin to paralyze the follicles and muscular walls of the stomach, so that it becomes flabby and baggy, and will hold an unusual amount of trashy foods and fluids. The organ has been turned into a veritable sour "yeast pot,” and we have the first stage of the disease known as vegetable dyspepsia of the stomach, or the first stage of consumption. In this stage of the disease, the stomach is almost constantly distended with gas, which is only partially relieved by the frequent sour eructations".

"As soon as food that cannot be digested is taken, more or less flatulence occurs, which reverses to a greater or lesser extent normal peristaltic action. This works the bile up into the stomach, and back into the gall bladder and gall ducts the patient becomes what is called "bilious", the urine is high colored and scanty, and stands at a density of 1.030 and upwards, and deposits a sediment on standing".

 

[Apple]

I find it funny that there were carnivore vs vegan debates going on 150 years ago. Nothing has changed since then.

James H Salisbury was the original carnivore MD and wrote the book 'The Relation of Alimentation and Disease' in 1888, here are a few excerpts:

"Vegetable Dyspepsia, or the first Stage of Consumption. This arises from the too exclusive and long-continued use of vegetable or amylaceous and saccharine foods and fruits, or either of them. The stomach is the first organ to suffer. In man this organ is mainly designed for digesting lean meats. It may be called a purely carnivorous organ. It requires lean meats to excite normal quantity of healthy secretions in its glandular follicles for digestion, and the healthy excitation of these secretions stimulates the muscular-fibres to maintain those normal downward peristaltic movements which are necessary for physiological digestion and transmission".

"Hence the too exclusive and long-continued use of vegetable, and especially amylaceous and saccharine food, fills the stomach with materials which do not stimulate it even enough to pass them along to where they are digested, in consequence of which they lie so long in this organ that fermentative processes supervene little by little, and we have the stomach filled with carbonic acid gas, sugar, alcohol, acid and alcoholic and acid yeast plants. These products of fermentation soon begin to paralyze the follicles and muscular walls of the stomach, so that it becomes flabby and baggy, and will hold an unusual amount of trashy foods and fluids. The organ has been turned into a veritable sour "yeast pot,” and we have the first stage of the disease known as vegetable dyspepsia of the stomach, or the first stage of consumption. In this stage of the disease, the stomach is almost constantly distended with gas, which is only partially relieved by the frequent sour eructations".

"As soon as food that cannot be digested is taken, more or less flatulence occurs, which reverses to a greater or lesser extent normal peristaltic action. This works the bile up into the stomach, and back into the gall bladder and gall ducts the patient becomes what is called "bilious", the urine is high colored and scanty, and stands at a density of 1.030 and upwards, and deposits a sediment on standing".

But are there many examples of carnivore people living to 100 yo or more ?
I think Vegetarians (+ milk) win hands down.

 

[Apple]

I find it funny that there were carnivore vs vegan debates going on 150 years ago. Nothing has changed since then.

Im still reading the book and can't believe it... all the health issues we disccus on this foum existed 150 years ago.
Bread was causing gas and madigestion for many people. Refined flour is condemned by the author.
Many people improved their health by limiting meat intake.
Processed foods are bad.
Cancer, dyspepsia (Indigestion) , heart deases , gout , piles, teeth decay, sleeplessness, nervous indecision, palpitation of heart, irregularity of bowels,
diabetes, and epilepsy... you name it ... Everything existed to the same degree as now.

PS
"A lady who died in Skye in 1880, at the age of one hundred and seven, had lived all her life on oatmeal porridge, and had not used either tea or whisky."

 

[Apple]

He almost got me, but lost me right at the end.

I guess you disagree about coffee. Here is more stuff...

The United States consumes per head U33 lb. of tea, 7 ' 8 lb. of coffee. “ By drinking two or three cups of black coffee (strong) at every meal, muscular tremors are sometimes developed, with nervousness, anxiety, dread of impending ill, with palpitation and ; feeling of precordial oppression, bradycardia, vertigo, heartburn, dyspepsia, constipation, and insomnia.”
In children the effect of coffee is insomnia, night terrors, nervousness, and tremor.

 

[Korven]

But are there many examples of carnivore people living to 100 yo or more ?
I think Vegetarians (+ milk) win hands down.

I agree an all meat diet doesn't seem to be that great from a longevity perspective.

Still James Salisbury lived to be 82 years old on a diet of mostly lean beef (he invented the Salisbury steak). I would be fine with living to 82 if I was happy and healthy until the end.

Im still reading the book and can't believe it... all the health issues we disccus on this foum existed 150 years ago.
Bread was causing gas and madigestion for many people. Refined flour is condemned by the author.
Many people improved their health by limiting meat intake.
Processed foods are bad.
Cancer, dyspepsia (Indigestion) , heart deases , gout , piles, teeth decay, sleeplessness, nervous indecision, palpitation of heart, irregularity of bowels,
diabetes, and epilepsy... you name it ... Everything existed to the same degree as now.

PS
"A lady who died in Skye in 1880, at the age of one hundred and seven, had lived all her life on oatmeal porridge, and had not used either tea or whisky."

Yeah maybe we are not doing so bad in 2021 after all LOL. At least we have antibiotics, thyroid, hormones, vitamins, minerals, etc at our disposal.

 

[Korven]

I don't know why Dr Salisbury is such a fascinating character, here are more of his experiments:

"In 1854, “.., he entered upon the field of personal experiment, testing upon himself the effects of exclusive feeding upon a variety of foods,…” He was his own guinea pig, but within a couple years he was ready to test his theories on other people. So, in 1856, he “..got to hiring healthy, ablebodied men to submit themselves to similar experiments,” and it cost him about $40,000 to conduct his experiments (which would be equivalent to about a million dollars today)! That's an amazing amount of money to dedicate to these experiments, indicative of Dr. Salisbury's sincerity in his endeavors.

For his first experiment, he placed six men on a diet of baked beans and coffee for a few weeks, and they all suffered on this diet, sustaining paralysis, chronic diarrhea, heart palpitation, and oppressed breathing. He also placed four men on a diet of oatmeal porridge and coffee, and those men sustained flatulence, constipation, headache and dizziness.

...What did the treatment include? “The new treatment restricts the patient to purely animal, and consequently nonfermenting, food—good lean beef or mutton, with poultry allowed, say once a week. No vegetables, bread, cereals, fruits, pastry or sweets are permitted. From a pint to a pint and a half of water as hot as it can be drunk must be taken two hours after and one and a half hours before each meal and one hour before retiring." It is this "meat diet" which led to the Salisbury Steak."

The Origin of Salisbury Steak: The Hot Water Cure & Meat Diet

passionatefoodie.blogspot.com

 

[mrchibbs]

Thanks a lot for this thread, it's fascinating.

For years I've been interested in veganism, and I was at one point. It's not healthy at all but I'm interested in the idea of not needing factory farming and slaughterhouse to sustain living. Hunting and small-scale farming is another topic.

Ray has talked about the quality of the protein in the potato, and I think during WWII some scientists (maybe in Leningrad? not sure) were forced to live with just potatoes for 2-3 years and they stayed perfectly healthy.

I also think something like 90% vegetarian, with say added shellfish (for trace minerals) could be the healthiest approach. Building a diet from dairy, eggs, potatoes, mushrooms, cooked greens, ripe fruits, honey etc. could certainly work quite well.

 

[Apple]

I don't know why Dr Salisbury is such a fascinating character, here are more of his experiments:

"In 1854, “.., he entered upon the field of personal experiment, testing upon himself the effects of exclusive feeding upon a variety of foods,…” He was his own guinea pig, but within a couple years he was ready to test his theories on other people. So, in 1856, he “..got to hiring healthy, ablebodied men to submit themselves to similar experiments,” and it cost him about $40,000 to conduct his experiments (which would be equivalent to about a million dollars today)! That's an amazing amount of money to dedicate to these experiments, indicative of Dr. Salisbury's sincerity in his endeavors.

For his first experiment, he placed six men on a diet of baked beans and coffee for a few weeks, and they all suffered on this diet, sustaining paralysis, chronic diarrhea, heart palpitation, and oppressed breathing. He also placed four men on a diet of oatmeal porridge and coffee, and those men sustained flatulence, constipation, headache and dizziness.

...What did the treatment include? “The new treatment restricts the patient to purely animal, and consequently nonfermenting, food—good lean beef or mutton, with poultry allowed, say once a week. No vegetables, bread, cereals, fruits, pastry or sweets are permitted. From a pint to a pint and a half of water as hot as it can be drunk must be taken two hours after and one and a half hours before each meal and one hour before retiring." It is this "meat diet" which led to the Salisbury Steak."

The Origin of Salisbury Steak: The Hot Water Cure & Meat Diet

passionatefoodie.blogspot.com

the substance in question here is coffee
Coffee is known to drastically increase starch persorption leading to embolism when coffee and starches are taken together. Maybe that's why "oatmeal porridge and coffee" diet failed.

But surely humans can subsist on basically any food. I think the most important is to not overeat so the food is thoroughly digested and to keep proper intervals between meals.
"There is no cure like the “ hunger cure.”"
"Moderation in quantity of food is the distinction (amid all varieties) of long-lived people."

In this book they are not completely anti-meat and admit that a moderate amount of meat is good for mental development :
“Whilst on the one hand it may be freely conceded to the advocates of vegetarianism that a well-selected vegetable diet is capable of producing (in the greater number of individuals) the highest physical development of which they are capable, it may, on the other hand, be affirmed with equal certainty that the substitution of a moderate proportion of animal flesh is in no way injurious, whilst, so far as our evidence at present extends, this seems rather to favour the highest mental development."

 

[Korven]

the substance in question here is coffee
Coffee is known to drastically increase starch persorption leading to embolism when coffee and starches are taken together. Maybe that's why "oatmeal porridge and coffee" diet failed.

But surely humans can subsist on basically any food. I think the most important is to not overeat so the food is thoroughly digested and to keep proper intervals between meals.
"There is no cure like the “ hunger cure.”"
"Moderation in quantity of food is the distinction (amid all varieties) of long-lived people."

In this book they are not completely anti-meat and admit that a moderate amount of meat is good for mental development :
“Whilst on the one hand it may be freely conceded to the advocates of vegetarianism that a well-selected vegetable diet is capable of producing (in the greater number of individuals) the highest physical development of which they are capable, it may, on the other hand, be affirmed with equal certainty that the substitution of a moderate proportion of animal flesh is in no way injurious, whilst, so far as our evidence at present extends, this seems rather to favour the highest mental development."

That's a good point about coffee being a confounding factor, so starch together with coffee is no bueno?

I would like to cut down on my red meat intake but I can't seem to get the same energy from any other food. When I try to change my diet and eat more plant foods I get weaker.

Thanks a lot for this thread, it's fascinating.

For years I've been interested in veganism, and I was at one point. It's not healthy at all but I'm interested in the idea of not needing factory farming and slaughterhouse to sustain living. Hunting and small-scale farming is another topic.

Ray has talked about the quality of the protein in the potato, and I think during WWII some scientists (maybe in Leningrad? not sure) were forced to live with just potatoes for 2-3 years and they stayed perfectly healthy.

I also think something like 90% vegetarian, with say added shellfish (for trace minerals) could be the healthiest approach. Building a diet from dairy, eggs, potatoes, mushrooms, cooked greens, ripe fruits, honey etc. could certainly work quite well.

I would also prefer to eat a vegetarian diet because I could never kill an animal myself. That is why I was a vegan for a few years before, but that failed miserably and I feel like the high fiber/oxalates/grains/anti-nutrients made me develop new sensitivities to foods and so now I have to rely on more animal foods and meat for calories. So my plan to not hurt animals backfired on me hard lol.

I think if I never went 100% vegan and ruined my gut and poisoned myself with oxalates, I could have pulled of a mostly vegetarian diet... but now I'm stuck with my red meat meals.

 

[CiggyTardust]

I would also prefer to eat a vegetarian diet because I could never kill an animal myself.

You speak from a position of luxury because the slaughterhouse and butcher will do the dirty work for you. So many of us have never had to face directly the reality of death supporting life. But make no mistake: you absolutely could and would kill an animal if you were hungry enough. We descend from hunters and it's in your DNA whether or not you want to face that fact.

I say this as someone who tried vegetarianism as an adolescent, to my detriment. After two years my health fell apart and I went back to eating meat. I too feel best on red meat so that's what I will stick with as my body knows best.

 

[Yonebayashian]

I think inability to consume coffee reveals unrobust health in the absence of the increase resource requirements the caffeine spurs. I've had periods of my life where a single cup of black tea would reduce me to a wreck for half a week afterwards and now after long term diet correction I can handle it fine.

The potato diet's inability to integrate coffee reveals its insufficiency, no surprises here.

 

[Apple]

A person in a good health doesn't need stimulants