Potassium:Sodium Ratios. My Experience And Theory

Discussion in 'Minerals' started by Jon, Jun 30, 2018.

  1. sugarbabe

    sugarbabe Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2012
    Messages:
    3,189
    I'm really not understanding the way the forum has been going lately. Everything I'm seeing isn't even about Ray's work anymore. Ray is a big fan of salt, sure he talks about it in one interview that taking a tablespoon when working outside made his skin turn extremely salty, but seriously a TABLESPOON. In fact I think he talks more about salt than he does about potassium. I've been following him for 6 yrs. And honestly I need to get back to his interviews because this forum has clouded his work.

    "Salt restriction, according to a review of about 100 studies (Alderman, 2004), lowers the blood pressure a few points. But that generally doesn’t relate to better health. In one study (3000 people, 4 years), there was a clear increase in mortality in the individuals who ate less salt. An extra few grams of salt per day was associated with a 36% reduction in “coronary events” (Alderman, et al., 1995). Another study (more than 11,000 people, 22 years) also showed an inverse relation between salt intake and mortality (Alderman, et al., 1997)."

    "When there is adequate sodium in the extracellular fluid, the continuous inward movement of sodium ions into the resting cell activates an enzyme, sodium-potassium ATPase, causing ATP to break down into ADP and phosphate, which stimulates the consumption of fuel and oxygen to maintain an adequate level of ATP. Increasing the concentration of sodium increases the energy consumption and carbon dioxide production of the cell. The sodium, by increasing carbon dioxide production, protects against the excitatory, toxic effects of the intracellular calcium."

    He doesn't even mention any kind of potassium requirement in that article.

    And again yes we are mammals. But please we are entirely different than a Panda. Mammal just means "we nurse our young". Human milk is 1:3.9 that seems reasonable. Sodium chloride is an essential electrolyte as is potassium. I see absolutely no need for a ratio as high as 1:7 unless someone has a severe salt sensitivity and if they do they likely have a lot of health issues. I can eat 4 slices of bacon and show no signs of edema.
     
  2. OP
    Jon

    Jon Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2017
    Messages:
    560
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Colorado
    I agree with you as far as a Ratio. Like I said I seem to be fine on a 1:2 sodium to potassium and I believe reguardless of whatever Ratio is maintained, there's a situational upper limit for either nutrient dependent upon hormone status, activity level, etc. hence why I seem to not do well in sodium over a certain amount.

    As far as what Ray said about having a tablespoon cause adverse reaction..well I think this lends comment to the suggestion I made earlier that in his statement of a couple extra grams a day ("a couple" being a very subjective descriptor btw) being healthier than having less is suggesting a CHRONIC ingestion pattern of more salt OVER TIME is healthy and that ACUTE bolus ingestion of sodium OVER chronic established status quo will give you adverse reactions.

    So if you normally ingest a larger amount of sodium than the average person who doesn't prioritize sodium ingestion then a bolus ingestion of say 4 pieces of bacon probably won't antagonize aldosterone levels as much as someone who doesn't have as low of serum aldosterone as you do. These things are variant to each persons unique situation.
     
  3. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    11,291
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA
    Have you taken your bolus of vitamin C today? :ss2
     
  4. yerrag

    yerrag Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Messages:
    5,024
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manila
    I get the feeling there are just enough confounding factors involving the action of electrolytes in our body that it isn't easy to capture in one body of knowledge where we can make explicit statements of their relationships. Ray Peat has made statements about salt that can well be taken as a rule, but the only take I have for them is that he is against the mainstream idea of blaming salt for hypertension.

    But how many of us have really been able to lower blood pressure by increasing salt intake? I haven't. But I still hold thst Ray could still be right, as I'm more into eliminating confounding factors.

    It also doesn't help that Ray can't go much deeper inot the other electrolytes in detail, as sodium chloride doesn't work for in isolation from magnesium, potassium, and calcium. And these electrolytes all together are affected, and affect other variables in our system.

    Take magnesium. Ray mentions magnesium as important for the enzymes to enable the full enablement of our metabolic pathways. But he finds it difficult to elaborate further, as in its relation ship with potassium. I've learned in this forum that a magnesium deficiency affects the absorption of potassium.

    I can understand why Rat can't help but be mum on potassium. It's hard to do so when people can harm themselves from knowing just enough to be dangerous. Potassium supplementation could be harmful for people with kidney disorders, for example, as their ability to excrete potassium is impaired. Or for people taking certain antibiotics like fluoroquinolones.

    I find myself having to fill in the blanks, amidst this sea of ambiguity. I'm experimenting with various combinations of electrolytes, paired with different kinds of anions, and I'm now more confident as I improve my main problem in hypertension. I can't make rules yet, but I can say I'm not muddling through anymore.
     
  5. OP
    Jon

    Jon Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2017
    Messages:
    560
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Colorado
    +1 !

    I'm with you on the "what the hell does potassium actually do?" debacle lol I eventually just combed through ncbi to figure out what exactly it's actions are and why ray suggests potassium rich foods for glucose tolerance. It seems potassium initiates insulin secretion (perhaps more than glucose does?) and so if adequate potassium is ingested per gram of glucose and pancreatic function is good then you should be able to wick up the blood glucose derived from whatever food you ate.

    Not sure if it's Rays intention, but his slight ambiguity does seem to foster a community that educates itself pretty thouroughly, so I suppose that's atleast one consolation lol. He makes us make ourselves smarter.
     
  6. yerrag

    yerrag Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Messages:
    5,024
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manila
    Just like a zen master. Or a great teacher. Doesn't spoonfeed. Old style. :):
     
  7. tara

    tara Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2014
    Messages:
    10,202
    Gender:
    Female
    I'm most definitely both mammal and animal. :) But I agree with you that we are not necessarily the same in all relevant ways to those other mammals. For instance, our fluid retention is different. And sometimes more salt is definitely useful (I've seen consequences of hyponatremia).
    My reading of Peat on this is that he doesn't favour people either restricting or forcing salt beyond taste - that is, eating less than their tastes crave or more than what tastes good. He also pretty consistently speaks highly of fruit and milk as staples, and of potatoes and other roots as better options than many despite their starch. I also think he tends to suggest eating a diet in which most of the food is pretty high in potassium - fruit, milk, maybe potatoes and other roots in preference to poorer foods, etc.

    The rule I'd take from him is 'salt taste', which is a pretty loose guideline.
     
  8. yerrag

    yerrag Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Messages:
    5,024
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manila
    I get the sense that Ray is one who relies on senses, which works pretty well and a lot better than the fuzzy logic algortithms. The "salt taste" is what's guided us as well as animals, and the more we rely on our senses, the more grounded we are. Heaven forbid someone invents a salt-tasting device, as that would deprive us of another ability. The less we use of our senses, the more we lose what is built-in to us. A generation later, we may well lose our navigating instincts as we come to rely on Waze to find our way around. Meanwhile, the aborigines could still navigate a forest by recognizing trees as markers.

    What I don't understand with this forum is that we're not big on using our senses. For example, Ray has talked about how we could use our senses to diagnose hypothyroidism. Yet almost everyone here prefers seeing numbers on a thyroid panel with the rT3 test. This is not 'loose' though, just as relying on our taste buds isn't that close to being 'loose.'
     
  9. tara

    tara Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2014
    Messages:
    10,202
    Gender:
    Female
    Maybe loose wasn't the right word for me to use.
    In a particular situation, a person can usually tell if they want more salt on their food or not - it taste can give pretty precise guidance to current need.
    But that doesn't translate to a ratio that will be right for everybody all the time.
     
  10. sugarbabe

    sugarbabe Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2012
    Messages:
    3,189
    Excellent reply! Yes I agree, the body can get used to our ways of eating, it is always seeking balance. Sudden increase might throw things off.

    So just because animals eat several grams of potassium a day doesn't mean we need that much to be healthy. Their kidneys are likely excreting quite a bit of that to maintain perfect blood chemistry. Just like how Ray's sweat looked like salt crystals! :D

    I have been getting healthier and consume way less potassium than most people here. Not that I avoid it. I eat bananas specifically to get my requirement to prevent heart rhythm issues. But even that is getting to be less of need than a year ago. When I'm on progesterone aldosterone gets a bit confused and I get a bit more heavy heart beats, but it's still way better than it used to be. Take care of those adrenals and they will take care of you!

    And no I'll never quit vitamin C.
     
  11. yerrag

    yerrag Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Messages:
    5,024
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manila
    I guess there is a qualitative aspect to it that is hard to put in a very discrete manner. When it's not easily measured, it takes the appearance of being subjective, and becomes the domain of art and not science. And "loose" isn't quite the right way to describe it, although it comes close.
     
  12. yerrag

    yerrag Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Messages:
    5,024
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manila
    I don't think so. When I wasn't supplementing magnesium, my serum potassium levels were normal. When I take in potassium then (through food or supps), I would find it pretty useless in keeping from having cramps. I guess it's because whatever I take in was being excreted out in urine, and not going to potassium stores or into my tissues, for lack of magnesium in tissues and stores.

    The high serum potassium, though, is a concern. People with kidney problem may have difficulty in excreting potassium. And some drugs just disturb the acid-base balance and affect the behaviour of electrolytes. Potassium normally stays in the intracellular area, and when it moves out into the interstitial fluids and blood, there is something going on where the cell is losing its integrity and allowing stuff that should be in to go out, and stuff that should be out to go in.

    Serum potassium being high also associates with heart problems such as high and irregular heart rate.
     
  13. ImprovingDaily

    ImprovingDaily Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2017
    Messages:
    210
    That concerns me because I do feel I have heart issues. I tend to get adrenaline rushes often and I get chest pains if I let myself get too stressed. I do my best to manage it, and i manage it well, i just wish I could get to the bottom of it. I dont really trust conventional medicine either so it's hard for me to try and figure this out.
     
  14. yerrag

    yerrag Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Messages:
    5,024
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manila
    Those are not good signs. High potassium. Adrenalin rushes. How do you describe your adrenalin rush? High heart rate? It seems like you have a problem metabolizing sugar well and this could be leading to acid-base imbalances arising from production of lactic acid and/or ketoacids (from fatty acid oxidation). The shift towards an acidic pH in the blood makes the cell lose integrity in keeping potassium and magnesium in, and sodium and calcium out. Good sugar metabolism involves the production of CO2 as a byproduct, and the CO2 as it exits the cell (as carbonic acid) carries with it
    calcium and sodium. In faulty sugar metabolism, lactic acid is produced instead of CO2, and calcium increases inside the cell and this leads to calcification. As calcium enters cells, potassium leaves.

    Also, there is the matter of electrolytes and whether you are deficient in any of them-magnesium, potassium, calcium, sodium- but that is less immediate a concern as the body adapts to it.

    Right now, you may want to get an idea first of your metabolic state- body temperature, heart rate. Find out if you are hypothyroid. Then take steps accordingly. It starts with changing your food lifestyle, and taking some supplements to turn your body over to mitochondrial respiration of sugar.
     
  15. yerrag

    yerrag Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Messages:
    5,024
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manila
    An odd thing happening with me is that I've been taking 900mg elemental magnesium (magnesium ascorbate), 2350mg elem potassium (KCl), and 800 mg elemental calcium (calcium bicarbonate). I figure I didn't need to add sodium as it's already in the food.

    This has been going on for a month (although I switch from different forms of magnesium), and I keep trying to stop myself from urinating so much. During this time, I was attributing the peeing to detox going on, as I was taking some detox supplements along with this.

    But last night I had a muscle cramp on my legs, and this made me stop and think. Why am I having cramps when I'm taking so much potassium (granted 2350mg isn't much when 400mg is RDA, but I'm also taking in potassium from food)?

    This made me think if I've been peeing away all my potassium intake. But why would I pee my potassium away when I'm also taking in magnesium (and I would have enough magnesium stores after a year of therapeutic mag supplementation. Potassium is not absorbed when magnesium is deficient)?

    This made me think that maybe relative to all the other electrolytes I've been taking, I could be low in sodium. This would cause aldosterone to conserve sodium, by throwing away potassium in urine. This seems to be confirmed by a puzzling (until now) increase in blood pressure, as aldesterone is part of the renin-angiotensin system that increases blood pressure.

    Anyway, I'm going to add sodium to my daily electrolyte supplementation to see if this line of thinking holds true.
     
  16. Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    3,110
    Gender:
    Male
    I have been experimenting with higher amounts of KCL and had good results. Doing just under 3 grams these days. I pee much less now then I used too, also feel more relaxed during the day.

    @Janelle525 When Peat talks about Salt, he does not seem so much to be talking about salt, more talking against the general recommendation to restrict it in elderly people. There is a lot of room to experiment.
     
  17. yerrag

    yerrag Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Messages:
    5,024
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manila
    What are your thoughts on frequency of urination? I can't get a good grasp of it.

    All I know, and I'm not 100% on this, is that I pee a lot when acidic, even when the urine volume was low. It seemed like the high acidity triggers the urge to urinate, even when the bladder is barely above empty. And it's different when my blood/ecf is alkalinic, I would still pee often, but there's a lot of volume.

    Lately though, and I'm not sure, I've been urinating a lot as well, and I suspect it's because I'm taking some detox supplements - PectaClear alginate, NAC, Vitamin B6, zinc, and selenomethionine. Is this possible?

    Or it could be that I just needed plenty of salt, especially after days of frequent urination, and I'm getting low on salt, and this causes aldosterone to conserve salt, and it will cause potassium to be urinated.

    Anyway, sorry for going off-topic.
     
  18. Obi-wan

    Obi-wan Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    1,120
    Gender:
    Male
    This is why potassium is more important than sodium:

    Membrane potential (also transmembrane potential or membrane voltage) is the difference in electric potential between the interior and the exterior of a biological cell. With respect to the exterior of the cell, typical values of membrane potential range from –40 mV to –80 mV.

    All animal cells are surrounded by a membrane composed of a lipid bilayer with proteins embedded in it. The membrane serves as both an insulator and a diffusion barrier to the movement of ions. Transmembrane proteins, also known as ion transporter or ion pump proteins, actively push ions across the membrane and establish concentration gradients across the membrane, and ion channels allow ions to move across the membrane down those concentration gradients. Ion pumps and ion channels are electrically equivalent to a set of batteries and resistors inserted in the membrane, and therefore create a voltage between the two sides of the membrane.

    Virtually all eukaryotic cells (including cells from animals, plants, and fungi) maintain a non-zero transmembrane potential,[citation needed] usually with a negative voltage in the cell interior as compared to the cell exterior ranging from –40 mV to –80 mV. The membrane potential has two basic functions. First, it allows a cell to function as a battery, providing power to operate a variety of "molecular devices" embedded in the membrane. Second, in electrically excitable cells such as neurons and muscle cells, it is used for transmitting signals between different parts of a cell. Signals are generated by opening or closing of ion channels at one point in the membrane, producing a local change in the membrane potential. This change in the electric field can be quickly affected by either adjacent or more distant ion channels in the membrane. Those ion channels can then open or close as a result of the potential change, reproducing the signal.

    In non-excitable cells, and in excitable cells in their baseline states, the membrane potential is held at a relatively stable value, called the resting potential. For neurons, typical values of the resting potential range from –70 to –80 millivolts; that is, the interior of a cell has a negative baseline voltage of a bit less than one-tenth of a volt. The opening and closing of ion channels can induce a departure from the resting potential. This is called a depolarization if the interior voltage becomes less negative (say from –70 mV to –60 mV), or a hyperpolarization if the interior voltage becomes more negative (say from –70 mV to –80 mV). In excitable cells, a sufficiently large depolarization can evoke an action potential, in which the membrane potential changes rapidly and significantly for a short time (on the order of 1 to 100 milliseconds), often reversing its polarity. Action potentials are generated by the activation of certain voltage-gated ion channels.

    Ion pumps are integral membrane proteins that carry out active transport, i.e., use cellular energy (ATP) to "pump" the ions against their concentration gradient.[9] Such ion pumps take in ions from one side of the membrane (decreasing its concentration there) and release them on the other side (increasing its concentration there).

    The ion pump most relevant to the action potential is the sodium–potassium pump, which transports three sodium ions out of the cell and two potassium ions in.[10] As a consequence, the concentration of potassium ions K+ inside the neuron is roughly 20-fold larger than the outside concentration, whereas the sodium concentration outside is roughly ninefold larger than inside.[11][12] In a similar manner, other ions have different concentrations inside and outside the neuron, such as calcium, chloride and magnesium.[12

    Cut and pasted from Wikipedia

    I take Apple Cider Vinegar and Potassium bicarbonate since I want to keep intracellular potassium high to maintain a resting cellular potential and a high membrane potential (-70 to -80 mV). Cells do not want to be in a continuous action potential otherwise they get stressed and cause depolarization. This causes sodium to rush in and causes the cell to swell (Danger Will Robinson!... sorry Lost in Space comment) If the cell starts fermenting it will create lactic acid which will call in the stress hormones...perfect opportunity for cancer...Key word here is continuous.
     
  19. yerrag

    yerrag Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Messages:
    5,024
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manila
    I fail to see how potassium is more important than sodium from what you just shared. Please elaborate.

    I also don't understand why aldosterone is tasked with conserving sodium at the expense of potassium. Why would it do so if potassium is more important than sodium?
     
  20. Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    3,110
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't know about the urination frequency either. I think the more you go the worse it is, but not exactly sure the gritty details on it. I also think the PH thing is not so simple. I am taking a lot of acidic minerals, and it seems to be balancing me out. I know you can have acidosis in one place and a corresponding alkalosis in another. I also know that infections, virus, and other harmful things can push your body in a PH direction to fight those. If they are chronic issues, you can have a PH that is off for a long time, and it is not necessarily a bad thing, just an adaptation of your body trying to get rid of a problem. I eat plenty of salt, have for years, and I tend to think it is hard to get low on salt unless you really try, and potassium is probably more important to supplement.
     
Loading...