Post-SSRI troubles, pseudo-ADD, panic attacks

allblues

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Hey folks

Been lurking here for a while after stumbling upon Ray's works a few weeks ago, and after incessant reading of his stuff, the forum, and listening
to podcasts i feel i've come to the right place to start getting myself in order again;

I'm in pretty deep bleep and have been for a few years. I'm 22, soon to be 23.

I got on SSRI's in late 2010, sertraline, and took my last dose in may 2013, after about a 3 month long taper down from 100 mg.

Having read now about inescapable stress (bullying/harrassment which led to the SSRIs), serotonin, endurance training, low-carbing which i thought would be my savior, it's like the last five-six years have been this perfect serotonin-stress-smackdown, taking a pretty big toll on my brain and functioning.

So, current symptoms, which come and go to some extent but are persistent;

- Anxiety, tense in social situations
- Poor concentration/learning, i feel dumb, can't focus or "get into" things
- Irritated, yet i dont care about anything
- On/off libido, emphasis on off, if i ever "finish" (i'm sorry, is this a family show? :oops: ) libido
will go into hiding for a week or longer, before it'll stick as much as its pinkytoe out the door again
- Panic attacks, intrusive thoughts, which starts this adrenaline-ish reaction that doesn't subside
for days/weeks, together with worsening of all other symptoms, i try to kill it with sugar, not really helping thus far
- At worst it feels like being in hell. Interestingly, a very demanding 10k-race, about a month ago, triggered the worst episode
i've had in at least 6 months, akathisia-like, restless, insomniac, terrible state for a week until it started improving.
I've felt this reaction before with endurance training, and this was the last straw, i'm not putting on those running
shoes again for a while unless at gunpoint.

Well, enough doom and gloom, i'll just ask;

Do any of you have a clue of what is going on with me?
I've been trying to connect the dots as best i can, have started moving towards more of a Peaty,
follow-my-fruit-and-milk-cravings kind of diet, eating eggs, some beef, gelatin, etc. Potatoes. Coconut oil. Been at it for 2 weeks,
after transitioning from low-carb to sort of medium carb without much fruit/sweet things over the last 1-2 years.

Supplements i'm taking are Garden of Lifes Men-multivitamin, Zinc 60 mg from the same company (just started),
Taurine (just started), the occasional mucuna pruriens 1 g capsule.

I've seen some improvements just during this short time, libido, when it was there, was much better.
But then i had a panic attack this monday, and now it's sort of gone again, with all these nasty symptoms following.

Could i benefit from some kind of anti-serotonin drug? Maybe i should just sit still for a while with the new diet tweaks and see where it takes me?

Recently got a bloodtest (these are Swedish ways of measuring, they might seem odd to some of you), my testosterone is high, 1095 ng/dl, vitamin D low, 75 nmol/L, T4 at 14 pmol/L, TSH 1.87. Free T3 4.6. I missed asking for the prolactin and or estrogen. I'm thinking prolactin might
be an issue, with the low libido, and slight gynecomastia that wont go away.

Thank you all, finding RP and this forum has been quite the revelation! Any answers are greatly appreciated.
 
T

tobieagle

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You are young and you should improve pretty quickly even though you went through all these struggles.
I would stick with a solid diet for a bit longer before taking additional measures.

The carrot salad (shredded carrot, coconut oil, vinegar, salt) is good a good first attempt to lower serotonin and help the liver detoxify estrogen which should help with your gynecomastia.
If this isn't enough you can try one of the common anti-serotonin drugs like cyproheptadine, tianeptine or lsd-25.

Try to minimize supplements, especially if they have questionable ingredients.


We are truly living in a ****88 up society... men in their 20s with depression, no libido.
Its an epidemic. Fortunately there are people like Ray.
 

lexis

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allblues said:
post 106815 Hey folks

Been lurking here for a while after stumbling upon Ray's works a few weeks ago, and after incessant reading of his stuff, the forum, and listening
to podcasts i feel i've come to the right place to start getting myself in order again;



Thank you all, finding RP and this forum has been quite the revelation! Any answers are greatly appreciated.

I think you should check your PTH level too?

You can try Lysine 500mg,P5P 5mg ,cyproheptadine 1mg for anxiety.And ofcourse salt
 
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allblues

allblues

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tobieagle said:
post 107014 You are young and you should improve pretty quickly even though you went through all these struggles.
I would stick with a solid diet for a bit longer before taking additional measures.

The carrot salad (shredded carrot, coconut oil, vinegar, salt) is good a good first attempt to lower serotonin and help the liver detoxify estrogen which should help with your gynecomastia.
If this isn't enough you can try one of the common anti-serotonin drugs like cyproheptadine, tianeptine or lsd-25.

Try to minimize supplements, especially if they have questionable ingredients.


We are truly living in a f***ed up society... men in their 20s with depression, no libido.
Its an epidemic. Fortunately there are people like Ray.

Hey tobieagle, thanks for the response!

Yes, the carrot salad is something i have yet to implement. My main question was when to eat it - i heard it was good to take it on a sort-of empty stomach? Would that be in between major meals, an hour after dinner, or something else? How do you time it?

I've thrown out most of the supplements i had laying around the house, i think those i take now are pretty clean. No toxic capsules. The multivitamin and the zinc i'm sort of on the fence about. Garden of Life is touted around the web as being prime stuff, but they do for instance supposedly contain some live bacteria which i'm not so sure about anymore. If you or anyone else has more insight into these supplements and multivits in general i'd be happy to hear about it.

I am in contact with a doctor now about all this, he was the one who told me i presented with ADD-like symptoms, which i of course never used to have.
He suggested bupropion. Somewhere in the back of my mind i'm thinking - "reuptake inhibitors - excitotoxicity". This might be misinformed but i'm not too keen on those types of drugs. I'll ask him about those you suggested (aside from the LSD, i don't think he's "hip") if things stay the same for too long. Maybe bromocriptine, also?

Yeah, it's messed up. What's weird is my T levels are high. It mostly feels like some sort of brain damage/distortion. Messed up signaling.

I feel sort of dopamine sensitive now too, which might be explained by serotonins antagonism of DA. If i'm excited, or feel good, it's extremely jittery - sort of excited but extremely tense to the point of not being able to think/talk. It often changes, quite rapidly into a more panicky sort of state. Dopamine conversion into noradrenaline, maybe?

At least my warrior (stolen from another forum member whose name eludes me) is slowly making a comeback, functionally.
When at best it's pretty much like old times if not better.
I basically can't socialize decently yet though, at least not on a regular basis, which in a way makes his return sort of pointless.
Although i guess it is a good sign.
 
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T

tobieagle

Guest
Imo the carrot salad is best eaten between meals.
Don't think of it as a meal but more like a maintenance activity, like brushing your teeth.

Your prolactin is probably high if you have gynecomastia but I would first try to manage it without the use of strong drugs like bromocriptine.
Side effects are common if you use it for more than couple of weeks afaik.

T levels alone don't give much imformation. You would have to know the antagonizing hormones too (prolactin, estrogen, serotonin).
I would not get obsessed about lab tests. If your libido is not existant then there is something wrong, even if some lab tests don't indicate it.
Try to learn to go "by feel". Its often more reliable and ofc much cheaper ;)
But it's a process to get there.

allblues said:
post 107033 At least my warrior (stolen from another forum member whose name eludes me) is slowly making a comeback, functionally.
When at best it's pretty much like old times if not better.
I basically can't socialize decently yet though, at least not on a regular basis, which in a way makes his return sort of pointless.
Although i guess it is a good sign.

Try to work on that though. Social isolation is a big stressor on its on.
I have personal experience ;)

Always try to keep a wholistic picture of your life.
Diet, sleep, light, physical and mental activities, social life, passions and interests ... etc.
 
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allblues

allblues

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lexis said:
post 107017 I think you should check your PTH level too?

You can try Lysine 500mg,P5P 5mg ,cyproheptadine 1mg for anxiety.And ofcourse salt

Hey, thanks for responding!

I'll ask for PTH if i get another blood test. Would a high PTH then be indicative of a poorly working thyroid?

I'm getting daily gelatin, and salt which has been good. Combined green tea, salt, taurine and gelatin
worked wonders just the other day, hitting the break on the adrenaline that had been going for a week.

I'll look into P5P, and lysine sounds interesting! Just found this thread https://raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6004.
Goldmine stuff this. Would this be an OK brand for lysine, do you think? http://se.iherb.com/Now-Foods-L-Lysine- ... -454-g/653

Thanks
 
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answersfound

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allblues said:
lexis said:
post 107017 I think you should check your PTH level too?

You can try Lysine 500mg,P5P 5mg ,cyproheptadine 1mg for anxiety.And ofcourse salt

Hey, thanks for responding!

I'll ask for PTH if i get another blood test. Would a high PTH then be indicative of a poorly working thyroid?

I'm getting daily gelatin, and salt which has been good. Combined green tea, salt, taurine and gelatin
worked wonders just the other day, hitting the break on the adrenaline that had been going for a week.

I'll look into P5P, and lysine sounds interesting! Just found this thread viewtopic.php?t=6004.
Goldmine stuff this. Would this be an OK brand for lysine, do you think? http://se.iherb.com/Now-Foods-L-Lysine- ... -454-g/653

Thanks

It sounds like ur just trying a bunch of supplements and hoping that one just fixes everything for you. I'm going to give you a plan:

Skip the lysine, it's not necessary. Same with the p5p. No zinc either. The less the better
Caffeine is the magical supplement here. If you can or cannot tolerate it will tell us a lot about your health. If your liver is clogged up, you need the caffeine. About 200 mg a day for two weeks. Take the supplement with the theanine caffeine combo after a meal and that will provide you a smooth clean flow of energy. This combo will also increase dopamine reduce serotonin and fix anxiety and the adrenaljne issues. Take the fat soluble vitamins ADEK to lower estrogen and prolactin.
Get cypro and do not take more than 1 mg per night. Cypro is powerful stuff.

Also aspirin can be helpful if you have digestive issues.

After that just stick to food. Tolerating caffeine is important
 
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allblues

allblues

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lexis said:

It doesn't say too much about the symptoms but yes, "easily enraged, suicidal" "feelings of agitation, terror" sounds about right.

Hey answers, i really crave coffee, but i'm sort of unsure if i can handle it. I usually go coffee + tsp honey + milk + tsp taurine + gelatin.
This has been pretty good. It makes me feel somewhat more restless and terrorized. But it can also make the world beautiful and living again for a little while. My main concern is making my anxiety and panic worse but since i started drinking coffee this way
i can't really say that it has made it much worse.
Previous bad coffee experiences was probably due to drinking it black while on a bad diet.

200 mg would be 2-3 cups of coffee a day? I've seen people posting about the thea + caff-combo supplement. Unsure whether i could get anything decent shipped to Sweden. I'm thinking http://se.iherb.com/Paradise-Herbs-Opti ... -Caps/4236 could be good with each cup of coffee.

I'm supposed to be getting at least RDA ADEK from my multi. When i run out i'm interested in trying haidut's ADEK.
 
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allblues

allblues

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tobieagle said:
post 107042 Imo the carrot salad is best eaten between meals.
Don't think of it as a meal but more like a maintenance activity, like brushing your teeth.

I'll get the carrot salads going.

tobieagle said:
post 107042 Try to work on that though. Social isolation is a big stressor on its on.
I have personal experience ;)

Always try to keep a wholistic picture of your life.
Diet, sleep, light, physical and mental activities, social life, passions and interests ... etc.

You're right, isolation is stressful. It's just very hard. I have serious trouble holding conversations,
I'll just go blank, get irrationally annoyed, freeze, space out.
Sometimes it does go well but i can't keep any sort of consistency which i understand can be confusing to people.

Same thing with interests, it comes for a short while and goes for a longer while.
It's so easy to end in this vegetative state because holding on to any sort of thread or life-plan or whatever becomes impossible.
I'll keep working on it and hopefully if my body and brain starts doing better the world will open itself up again.
 
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Mittir

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RP recommends drinking coffee after meal if one has problem tolerating coffee.
You also can make meal out of coffee. I add 4-5 grams of instant coffee to 1 cup of milk
and 1-2 tbs of sugar without any problem. It calms me down and induce sleep.
Coffee without caffeine is also quite beneficial for it's magnesium, potassium and
anti-oxidant content. It's flavonoids also lowers iron absorption.

I think fixing gut is the most important part of recovery.
Eating easy to digest foods and avoiding allergens in foods and supplements
are very helpful. Multivitamins can be allergenic even without bad additives.
Some synthetic vitamins are allergenic due to its manufacturing process.

Edit: If you can ,measure your ferritin and iron saturation index.
Your thyroid numbers looks good, but you need reverse T3 to
interpret free T3.
 

answersfound

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allblues said:
post 107053
tobieagle said:
post 107042 Imo the carrot salad is best eaten between meals.
Don't think of it as a meal but more like a maintenance activity, like brushing your teeth.

I'll get the carrot salads going.

tobieagle said:
post 107042 Try to work on that though. Social isolation is a big stressor on its on.
I have personal experience ;)

Always try to keep a wholistic picture of your life.
Diet, sleep, light, physical and mental activities, social life, passions and interests ... etc.

You're right, isolation is stressful. It's just very hard. I have serious trouble holding conversations,
I'll just go blank, get irrationally annoyed, freeze, space out.
Sometimes it does go well but i can't keep any sort of consistency which i understand can be confusing to people.

Same thing with interests, it comes for a short while and goes for a longer while.
It's so easy to end in this vegetative state because holding on to any sort of thread or life-plan or whatever becomes impossible.
I'll keep working on it and hopefully if my body and brain starts doing better the world will open itself up again.

I don't think there's anything wrong with social isolation right now as long as you are not masturbating. Socializing sounds like it's going to do more harm than good to you because it is stressful so I think you should lower serotonin and increase libido with the tools I mentioned and the desire to socialize will slowly return. Don't force yourself to do it. Yes there is health stress but this does not appear to be like that type of scenario.
 
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allblues

allblues

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Hey mittir

Mittir said:
post 107054 Edit: If you can ,measure your ferritin and iron saturation index.
Your thyroid numbers looks good, but you need reverse T3 to
interpret free T3.

Ferritin was included in my last bloodtest; 76 µg/L. Paper says reference range 30-200.

Iron saturation index doesn't seem to be included, i'm guessing that's more advanced?

answersfound said:
post 107055 I don't think there's anything wrong with social isolation right now as long as you are not masturbating. Socializing sounds like it's going to do more harm than good to you because it is stressful so I think you should lower serotonin and increase libido with the tools I mentioned and the desire to socialize will slowly return. Don't force yourself to do it. Yes there is health stress but this does not appear to be like that type of scenario.

Yeah, i will try to follow my instincts with this. Work-related interaction is basically all i have energy for most of the time.
 
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tara

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Vaelkommen allblues

Want to quantify your eating? Eg. how much protein, carbs, calories, calcium:phosphorus, ..?

One food-based tactic for potentially reducing serotonin is to eat some gelatine or collagen hydrolysate or gelatinous broth with any muscle meats you eat, to help balance the tryptophan from which serotonin is made.

Lycka till :)
 
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allblues

allblues

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tara said:
post 107447 Vaelkommen allblues

Lycka till :)

Hej Tara :)

Usual day will look like;
Breakfast - Glass of OJ, egg or two, glass of milk, small piece of parmesan cheese
Lunch - An orange, a litre of 4% milk (oh yes!) alternatively more "normal" food, leftovers, like potatoes + butter, beef, bit of cheese
Dinner - Beef/fish in reasonable amounts, cooked greens. Potatoes with butter. Gravy of some kind.

Other than that i snack according to craving. An egg or two later in the evening, with some OJ for example.
A fruit or two during the day inbetween meals. Oh, and coconut oil when i feel like it, a teaspoon here and there.
I add hydrolyzed collagen to my drinks sort of by feel, and i try to make a point of getting some with my dinner protein meal.

Seems i've put on some weight over the last two-three weeks. But i'm also feeling better so that's a fair trade i think.

Also i've decided to take a small break from coffee. It has its benefits but also worsens this akathisia-like feeling of restlesness and agitation,
to the point of wanting to.. you know, end it. I don't really know why this is.
Gonna try a few days off and see how i feel. When theanine arrives i'll prob give it another go.

I think i saw a RP quote somewhere, cant find it now, recommending pregnenolone for SSRI recovery?
I'm interested in that. Does anyone have experience with preg helping with psychological issues?
There's some info around the web about it being helpful, besides what RP has written.
 
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allblues

allblues

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A small update;

Been continuing a more peaty way of eating. Had some ups and downs.

Added coffee back in, working much better now. I can drink up to 5-6 cups a day.
On a normal weekday i get about 3 cups a day.

Been adding k2 mk4 in sort of moderate doses, 4-8 mg/day.

Also added aspirin, 500 mg almost every day which i feel has done a lot for my sociability.
Probably synergistic with other things i've been doing but this has been most profound.
I can tolerate social situations much better, eye contact, everything.
Almost like i've been having some brain inflammation or something that's let up a bit.

I wrote in my first post i had some libido success for about a week.
I was hoping libido would be better eating this way but since then it has not really returned.
Pretty flatlined, all through november and so far in december.
Which sucks - libido and wellbeing usually go hand in hand for me.

I might have overdone the calcium bit. Had serious milk cravings while starting out, which lasted about two-three weeks.
However i kept drinking milk and eating eggshells despite not craving it which probably wasn't good.
Got bloodshot eyes and bleeding gums which i've read can be an issue of too much calcium.
Laying low on the calcium now, and trying to up magnesium.

Figuring out what is going on in the body is tough work. Especially when things start feeling worse and i start doubting what i'm doing.
A good take-away which i've read in other threads lately is to try to pay more attention to and be guided by cravings rather than fix ideas.

Got a doctors appt tomorrow. My only real idea is to perhaps get a prolactin test, provided my doc will give me one.

Got a shipment of magnesium glycinate and b6 coming which i'm gonna experiment with.
Would also be neat to try something that really hits the serotonin to see how that might feel, l-lysine maybe.
Cyproheptadine seems unavaliable in Sweden unfortunately.
 

tara

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allblues said:
post 114756 Almost like i've been having some brain inflammation or something that's let up a bit.
:)

I don't know if this applies to you, but some of us find we sustain better energy if we eat more in the morning - midday, and less in the evening. I really want a good serve of protein at lunch time,and some for breakfast, and plenty of carbs all morning, and don't eat so much meat in the evening.
 
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answersfound

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Definitely get pregnenolone. It helps tremendously and works synergistically with thyroid
 

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