Post Paleo Low Carb / Keto Recovery

[Jez]

Hi everyone,

I was hoping all the ex paleo lo carb / keto eaters would be able to give me a brief run-down of how you fixed or are fixing yourself post paleo and endurance / high intensity training?

My wife and myself came from paleo low carb / keto background and are trying to fix ourselves.

It's my hope that we can share what we are trying and have tried and share with similar people here so we might be able to sort out our liver issues, insulin resistance and generally fix our health together.

I have noted some studies @haidut posted re: aspirin reversing insulin resistance I feel like as we were running off fats that we are still resistant and need to reverse that before anything else will get better. We have done many suggestions from members of these forums and have see numerous improvements in our health over the 12 months we have been reading the forums and making changes to our nutritional practices, so thanks to everyone who has shared their knowledge/exeperience it is much appreciated. The community on here is such a good thing, if anyone is reading this who has just started following peoples advice here I strongly suggest to stick at it, you will see improvement and you will get better it just takes time. I like to look at it in this way - We took 5 years plus of bad nutritional choices and over training to get here so we are expecting it to take almost as long to fix the damage we have done. We knew weight gain was inevitable and potentially unavoidable, but we also knew once we repair our liver, metabolism and maintain nutritional balance that we will lose the weight.

Currently we feel like we are close but missing something as we just don’t lose weight and any training we do seems to set us back still. Our temps still aren’t 36.6c consistently even on 4 grains thyroid and numerous surrogates. Because of this we have cut our strength training back to just walking and maybe will add it some calisthenics concentric training at a later date as suggested by forum members.

We are hoping to gather some info from forum members on how do we know when we are no longer insulin resistant and what worked for anyone in reversing this? we are currently using higher doses of aspirin.

When should we start training again and how do we know we are not just stressing our bodies before they are ready? I have read that going backwards temps/pulse rate is a sign, how many days would we track following training to ascertain if we are not ready for training?

I am currently looking to lower my caloric intake as I am in a sedentary job where I sit for the majority of the day unfortunately, do I calculate my caloric requirements on lean body mass or fat mass? Chrono tells me to have 3000 cals plus with no training which seems like quite a lot, but then again I used to severely calorie restrict combined with heavy long metcon so who knows :-( hahaha

We are currently lowish fat – mod-high protein – high carb around 50/35/15 or so on macros and have recently limited starch to once/twice a week. Our diet as follows:

Carbs from sugar/melon/papaya/mangos and apple/orange juice, 2% milk
Protein from gelatin, pure casein powder, 90/10 grassfed beef mince sometimes chicken breast/thigh (affordable). Always cooked in coconut oil.
Fats from: 2% milk and meat products / cooking oil. small amounts of cheese.

Supps are daily

Doxy - 50mg daily
Vit A, E, D
1mg MB
B1/B2/Niacinamide/B6.
Aspirin 1g-2g
Coral calcium 3-5g
Magnesium 500mg
K2 15mg
Thyroid 4 grains - Thyroid S
Glycine 5g AM casein shake
Ritasterin 3-4 drops nightly (we previously took up to 4mg of cypro which helped a lot initially but makes us too tired the next day) We will still use it occasionally if we are not busy the next day.

Me only:
Just added 700mg AM caffeine to my apple juice and will look to work up to 1200mg daily
DHEA 5mg AM
DHT 11 Keto - Idealabs - did 4 drops am and pm for a week then back to 2 drops pm ongoing

When we initially started we frequently urinated in the night and had to eat throughout the night as we were waking tired but wired. that has now subsided. we did start out immediately on NDT and 100mg pregnenelone but currently don't use preg. My wife also used progest-e initially but has ceased as it made her angry? not sure why or if she should start it again.

Thanks everyone look forward to bouncing back and forward with you all and hopefully heading towards better health and leanness along with it.

Regards

Jez

 

[tara]

Jez

I don't have experience with low carb or paleo dieting. But some thoughts.

Coral calcium 3-5g

I think you mean that 3-5 g coral calcium giving ~40% calcium ie ~ 1.2 - 2.0g calcium? In which case, may be reasonable. If you mean 3-5 g of actual calcium, I'd be wondering if it was a bit high.

Just added 700mg AM caffeine to my apple juice and will look to work up to 1200mg daily

700mg caffeine is a lot in one go, esp. if you add it in suddenly.

Fats from: 2% milk and meat products / cooking oil.

Preferably coconut oil for cooking, not high-PUFA seed oils?

Thyroid 4 grains - Thyroid S

Did you work up to this gradually over months, monitoring temps etc? I don't have knowledge or experience of that particular brand on NDT, but if it's contents are effective, that's a very big leap in a short space of time. Getting more than needed, or trying to push metabolism up with other supplements, can sometimes have unintended consequences, and be harder to back down from. I think if you try to supplement too much wrt what the body considers safe, it can counteract it, and then it may get a bit more complicated.

I am currently looking to lower my caloric intake as I am in a sedentary job where I sit for the majority of the day unfortunately, do I calculate my caloric requirements on lean body mass or fat mass? Chrono tells me to have 3000 cals plus with no training which seems like quite a lot, but then again I used to severely calorie restrict combined with heavy long metcon so who knows :-( hahaha

I don't know exactly what your needs would be, but 3000 cals is roughly average for weight-stable non-dieting physically mature men (more if exra tall or extra active), so this seems roughly reasonable.

We are currently lowish fat – mod-high protein – high carb around 50/35/15 or so on macros and have recently limited starch to once/twice a week. Our diet as follows:

Possibly a bit high on the protein, if I'm reading you right - 35% of 3000 cals would be around ~250g protein? May be worth see if you are OK with a bit less - eg 150ish?

My wife also used progest-e initially but has ceased as it made her angry? not sure why or if she should start it again.

How much was she eating at the time? Lots of carbs, salting food to taste?

We are hoping to gather some info from forum members on how do we know when we are no longer insulin resistant and what worked for anyone in reversing this?

I don't know how to know this - I'd be curious for my own sake too - other than getting a glucose meter might be one way to assess.

Good luck to you both.

 

[Jez]

Hi @tara thanks for your reply. Cool thanks, yeah I always slowly go up doses, lol sorry didn't write that but caffeine has been slowly jacked up over the last few months and NDT was progressed to 4 grains over a 12 month period. Ray suggested somewhere that 5g a day of calcium was good for metabolism (sorry don't have the link) so we are actually getting 5g of calcium so 10g of coral calcium roughly and I tried to match that with 500mg-1g mags but carbonate taste pretty bad. We use all pure powders from purebulk. yeah don't touch pufa besides the small amounts we get in milk etc trying to limit it as all that PUFA got us where we are today hahaha. Thanks for your time and advice mate, have a good day.

 

[tara]

Ray suggested somewhere that 5g a day of calcium was good for metabolism (sorry don't have the link) so we are actually getting 5g of calcium so 10g of coral calcium roughly and I tried to match that with 500mg-1g mags but carbonate taste pretty bad.

I've seen him refer positively to some group that got 5g calcium - can't remember where either - but I didn't see that as a general recommendation. I was thinking 2g calcium (from food and/or supps) was more like?

 

[Velve921]

I was a paleo/low carb cross fitter for many years ways back...calorie restriction combined with high amounts of activity is a common theme.

My first year 1.5 years I required 5,000 calories a day, 500-600 grams of sucrose in order to see my temps/pulse rise. It appears you are taking a high amount of metabolic stimulators; be mindful as high metabolic stimulators without metabolic supporters (food) can have adverse effects.


Cleaning up bacterial endotoxins can be an overlooked idea when healing from a place regimen. Raw carrot salad, boiled white buton mushrooms, bamboo shoots, are popular foods that can oppose bacterial endotoxins. I do at least 1 of each per day at the current time along with cascada sagrada from time to time. 1x a year I do a round of tetracycline antibiotics as well. Raw carrot salad is the easiest but boiled mushrooms and bamboo shoots I've found the most valuable. Bamboo shoots eliminates my BO when consuming.

Hope this can be helpful!

 

[Jez]

I was a paleo/low carb cross fitter for many years ways back...calorie restriction combined with high amounts of activity is a common theme.

My first year 1.5 years I required 5,000 calories a day, 500-600 grams of sucrose in order to see my temps/pulse rise. It appears you are taking a high amount of metabolic stimulators; be mindful as high metabolic stimulators without metabolic supporters (food) can have adverse effects.


Cleaning up bacterial endotoxins can be an overlooked idea when healing from a place regimen. Raw carrot salad, boiled white buton mushrooms, bamboo shoots, are popular foods that can oppose bacterial endotoxins. I do at least 1 of each per day at the current time along with cascada sagrada from time to time. 1x a year I do a round of tetracycline antibiotics as well. Raw carrot salad is the easiest but boiled mushrooms and bamboo shoots I've found the most valuable. Bamboo shoots eliminates my BO when consuming.

Hope this can be helpful!

Thanks for the advice @Ewlevy1 I do have a raw carrot daily, is the salad more effective? I will chase down bamboo shoots, they may be hard to find raw in Australia. I'm 5'11 93kg and hitting about 2800 - 3k cals a day not even sure if this is enough based on what you had to do. By sucrose did you just eat straight raw sugar? I will also have to try to mushrooms and look up cascada sagrada. Did you have to take a break from training if so how long for and what kind of training do you do now. I still hold a decent amount of fat around my sides and stomach considering I take lots of supplements with anti estro properties so not sure what's happening there. Really appreciate your time taken to write a response and @tara hopefully someone will know how we figure out when we are less insulin resistant, I will also play around with calcium/magnesium to find the perfect balance for me.

 

[Jez]

Oh I forgot to mention I do just hit 36c throughout the day but never in the am - my pulse sits at 70-80 bpm currently

 

[tara]

I do have a raw carrot daily, is the salad more effective?

The raw carrot is the main thing. Adding a bit of vinegar and/or coconut may increase the antibiotic effect. But more important to eat the raw carrot at all than to necessarily dress it it.

 

[Velve921]

Thanks for the advice @Ewlevy1 I do have a raw carrot daily, is the salad more effective? I will chase down bamboo shoots, they may be hard to find raw in Australia. I'm 5'11 93kg and hitting about 2800 - 3k cals a day not even sure if this is enough based on what you had to do. By sucrose did you just eat straight raw sugar? I will also have to try to mushrooms and look up cascada sagrada. Did you have to take a break from training if so how long for and what kind of training do you do now. I still hold a decent amount of fat around my sides and stomach considering I take lots of supplements with anti estro properties so not sure what's happening there. Really appreciate your time taken to write a response and @tara hopefully someone will know how we figure out when we are less insulin resistant, I will also play around with calcium/magnesium to find the perfect balance for me.

I agree with Tara on the raw carrot itself; I can't anecdotally say one is better for me than the other. I know members of the forum have discussed the importance of using both at the same time.

My sucrose sources came from orange juice, milk, raw cane sugar, and ice cream mainly. I considered 2 possible avenues that I believed could yield measurable results in my progress: feed body based on temperature, pulse, and emotional wellness or simply just emotional wellness. In other words, I could "eat for heat" as Matt Stone may put it and go all in with healing the metabolism as quickly as possible or I could go based on relative emotional improvement. I chose to eat for heat as I believe in Dr. Peat's wisdom and that high sucrose/ low PUFA and the detox of PUFA was my main goal in reversing damage to my metabolic rate. I also stopped all weight lifting and conditioning for virtually 6 months then started lightly stretching and lifting maybe 1x a week or every 2 weeks. My body fat went from 178 @ 7% to 216 @ 24-25% during my initial healing process; last March I started adding in rock climbing 1x a week, softball 1x a week, juggling a soccer ball couple days a week. I now sit around 16% body fat at 222-225 lbs and I've increased my muscle mass by 25lbs (give or take) in 2.5 years with lifting possible on average of 1x a week or sometimes none.

Initially it was hard for me to believe that this process could take some years to achieve. However, based on everything I have learned thus far the idea of increasing calories, especially sugar until temperature and pulse start becoming consistent in the 98.6-99/84-90bpm made the most sense. Over time I am leaning down slowly, eating less food, and temp/pulse still stay high. My energy and emotional wellness is nothing like I have seen in my life! I will admit that I was aggressive as I had an excessive urination issue (70x a day) that I needed to remedy as quickly as possible; therefore my agenda was a little more desperate.

My current nutrition and supplement regimen is beyond intensive; however, I 100% believe that decreasing or removing modern exercise has been critical for my success! I may only lift 1x a week for the rest of my life as exercise destroys my energy levels, sleep, and increases urination.

 

[tara]

I will admit that I was aggressive as I had an excessive urination issue (70x a day) that I needed to remedy as quickly as possible; therefore my agenda was a little more desperate.

BTW, have you got this one sorted now?

 

[Velve921]

No I have not unfortunately. About to try a round of marshmallow root as a random guess based on some recent literature.

Still peeling back the layer a bit at a time :) Any new thoughts?

 

[Jez]

@Ewlevy1 Sorry I'm not super smart on the scientific side, but I used to urinate all night, not as much as you though but found when I had calcium, extra salt and mags it subsided maybe @haidut has an idea? Thanks so much for all sharing your experience! Cheers

 

[Velve921]

I've tried touching base with Haidut over the past couple years and this issue is still perplexing.

I still need to keep plucking away.

 

[Jez]

@Ewlevy1 ok cool so I'm getting a similar thing happening now where I wake at around midnight and then gave urgency to urinate 3+ times and it won't stop until I eat sonething, the salt on doesnt work and I have to take a cyproheptadine to get to sleep. @tara I'm leaning towards some kind of mineral imbalance as we just started on vitamins etc from purebulk. I usually have 4 dates and 300ml milk with 2 scoops casein and some sugar before bed. I thought it may be low fat so added some cheese one night and still tge same event. Iight try ice cream like ewlevy1 does. Do you both think i could be unbalancing things with supps? I know @Zachs cut alot of supplements Or has my metabolism increased and I'm just not eating enough. I'm trying to push to 3k calories but years of undereating makes it tough with appetite etc. Cheers everyone!

 

[WestCoaster]

I'm new here myself and was actually going to create a very similar post to yours Jez, which I will do when i have more time to sit down to write.

Like you and your wife, I've come from the paleo/primal low'ish carb background, but coupled with high activity, and in some cases extreme as I'm a competitive dragonboater. I've been doing paleo/primal for about 3ish years now, and like everyone else, seemed to have down-regulated my thyroid in the process. Funny thing is, I didn't even know I was doing it until one day I decided to calculate my calories after doing a warrior style fast (which is what I was doing regularly for quite some time). Think 20 hour fast then only 1200 calories for weeks/months.

Ironically though, long before I even ever heard of Ray Peat, I had this idea that both weight loss/gain had something to do with body temperature. So I conducted my own experiment in Dec 2015 for roughly a month. I was also on holidays so it was easy to maintain enough sleep. Basically I still mainly stuck to paleo/primal style foods but I also ate everything else under the sun (think xmas treats here), with the sole purpose of keeping my temperature as high as I could. Now from what I've read here the past few days, I might be coming from a background from not being as nearly damaged as others. At the time my waking temperature was 36.5 (97.7), which I assumed was low, and still do. So basically what I did, I ate as much as I could regardless of whether I was hungry or not just to keep my temp at or around 37 celcius. I also frequently sat outside on my balcony in shorts and T-shirt in nearly 0 temperature just to create some shivering to increase my temperature more.

End result was I ended up losing 10-15lbs over the month while eating in the neighborhood of 4500-5500 calories daily with minimal exercise (just walking). This of course flies in the face of "calories in/calories out", restricting calories to lose weight; sugar causing fat or weight gain; eating less moving more, and many other things we're told to lose weight. Why I stopped this after xmas is beyond me as I fell straight back into low'ish carb, inadvertent low calorie, and high activity. I do think exercise has it's place, but I'm beginning to think unless it has a stress reduction effect (or the cortisol levels quickly deplete after exercise), it probably should be minimized. So I think things like yoga probably have more of a better place here.

Even as i type this now, my waking temperature when I started "peating" about 4 days ago was 36.5. Two nights ago it was 36.6, and today when i awoke, it was 36.7, and I'm not even consuming a ton of calories at the moment. So there obviously is something sugar via OJ, milk, and minimizing PUFA's that has a thyroid and metabolic strengthening connection.

I realized I went off on a tangent here, but the point I'm trying to make is, I think there is a very strong connection between the body's propensity to store fat vs how cold it is. I think the colder one runs, the more likely they'll store fat (and more fat). The hotter their metabolic furnace is, the less likely your body wants to store fat (I mean why would it? It's warm). I think fat in itself is meant to keep us warm so the cooler we run, the more we store. So the faster one can raise their temperature (and keep it there), the quicker the fat will shed off. Now whether or not an intense bout of exercise the day before reduces or increases one's temp will vary from person to person.

This is why it makes me wonder about people like Rich Froning and Michael Phelps whom look like they are carved out of a statue, yet maintain high caloric diets, just what exactly are their waking body temperatures? I've never been able to find this info, but I'd venture at the very least it'd have to be 37.5 (99.5) at minimum. Since I'm new here myself I'm not really familiar with anyone yet, but if there is anyone here that is (or considers themselves fairly ripped), what exactly is their waking body temps?

 

[Velve921]

@Ewlevy1 ok cool so I'm getting a similar thing happening now where I wake at around midnight and then gave urgency to urinate 3+ times and it won't stop until I eat sonething, the salt on doesnt work and I have to take a cyproheptadine to get to sleep. @tara I'm leaning towards some kind of mineral imbalance as we just started on vitamins etc from purebulk. I usually have 4 dates and 300ml milk with 2 scoops casein and some sugar before bed. I thought it may be low fat so added some cheese one night and still tge same event. Iight try ice cream like ewlevy1 does. Do you both think i could be unbalancing things with supps? I know @Zachs cut alot of supplements Or has my metabolism increased and I'm just not eating enough. I'm trying to push to 3k calories but years of undereating makes it tough with appetite etc. Cheers everyone!

As I have discussed my history this is a largely complex topic. Some thoughts to consider:

I do a lot of supplementation and do much experimentation; however, I have seen nothing that compares to quality and quantity of food being the main catalyst for a healthy metabolism. My pre bed time meal is:

1-2 cups of ice cream
1-2 oz of dark chocolate
1-2 oz of parmigiano reggiano cheese
salt to taste
1-2 tbsp of gelatin
Swig milk to chase gelatin

Supplementation:

1/2 grain of dessicated thyroid hormone
1/4 tsp of theanine
4- 8mg of cyproheptadine or an over the counter anti-histamine

However, if I under eat saturated and sugar, but mainly more so saturated fat before bed time I am screwed. I found the pre bed time meal to be the most critical for overall health. The anti-serotonin and histamine drugs/supplementations have been tremendous secondary components. But I say again...food is priority in my book.

If the body is stuck in an adaptive stressed state from high amounts of exercise, low carb, high tryptophan and PUFA, etc... then simply it may just take time based on my experience in the past 2.5 years. I've also found epsom salt baths to be instrumental with reducing night time stress for 95% of people; I personally take them upon waking but all my athletes females with night time insomnia have seen pretty impressive results. So you could add that before bed time and eating your pre bed time meal while sitting in the bath tub.

 

[Xhale1991]

I'm new here myself and was actually going to create a very similar post to yours Jez, which I will do when i have more time to sit down to write.

Like you and your wife, I've come from the paleo/primal low'ish carb background, but coupled with high activity, and in some cases extreme as I'm a competitive dragonboater. I've been doing paleo/primal for about 3ish years now, and like everyone else, seemed to have down-regulated my thyroid in the process. Funny thing is, I didn't even know I was doing it until one day I decided to calculate my calories after doing a warrior style fast (which is what I was doing regularly for quite some time). Think 20 hour fast then only 1200 calories for weeks/months.

Ironically though, long before I even ever heard of Ray Peat, I had this idea that both weight loss/gain had something to do with body temperature. So I conducted my own experiment in Dec 2015 for roughly a month. I was also on holidays so it was easy to maintain enough sleep. Basically I still mainly stuck to paleo/primal style foods but I also ate everything else under the sun (think xmas treats here), with the sole purpose of keeping my temperature as high as I could. Now from what I've read here the past few days, I might be coming from a background from not being as nearly damaged as others. At the time my waking temperature was 36.5 (97.7), which I assumed was low, and still do. So basically what I did, I ate as much as I could regardless of whether I was hungry or not just to keep my temp at or around 37 celcius. I also frequently sat outside on my balcony in shorts and T-shirt in nearly 0 temperature just to create some shivering to increase my temperature more.

End result was I ended up losing 10-15lbs over the month while eating in the neighborhood of 4500-5500 calories daily with minimal exercise (just walking). This of course flies in the face of "calories in/calories out", restricting calories to lose weight; sugar causing fat or weight gain; eating less moving more, and many other things we're told to lose weight. Why I stopped this after xmas is beyond me as I fell straight back into low'ish carb, inadvertent low calorie, and high activity. I do think exercise has it's place, but I'm beginning to think unless it has a stress reduction effect (or the cortisol levels quickly deplete after exercise), it probably should be minimized. So I think things like yoga probably have more of a better place here.

Even as i type this now, my waking temperature when I started "peating" about 4 days ago was 36.5. Two nights ago it was 36.6, and today when i awoke, it was 36.7, and I'm not even consuming a ton of calories at the moment. So there obviously is something sugar via OJ, milk, and minimizing PUFA's that has a thyroid and metabolic strengthening connection.

I realized I went off on a tangent here, but the point I'm trying to make is, I think there is a very strong connection between the body's propensity to store fat vs how cold it is. I think the colder one runs, the more likely they'll store fat (and more fat). The hotter their metabolic furnace is, the less likely your body wants to store fat (I mean why would it? It's warm). I think fat in itself is meant to keep us warm so the cooler we run, the more we store. So the faster one can raise their temperature (and keep it there), the quicker the fat will shed off. Now whether or not an intense bout of exercise the day before reduces or increases one's temp will vary from person to person.

This is why it makes me wonder about people like Rich Froning and Michael Phelps whom look like they are carved out of a statue, yet maintain high caloric diets, just what exactly are their waking body temperatures? I've never been able to find this info, but I'd venture at the very least it'd have to be 37.5 (99.5) at minimum. Since I'm new here myself I'm not really familiar with anyone yet, but if there is anyone here that is (or considers themselves fairly ripped), what exactly is their waking body temps?

how much did you weigh when you did that experiment and gained no weight?