Post Finasteride

[TubZy]

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[sladerunner69]

I too have post finasteride syndrome, with all of the severe symptoms.

Overall, I think the ebst prescription is time+ ray peat dieting/light+ low frequency resistance training+ plenty of sleep and rest

Minimizing stressful factors in your lfie is very important, so that you can focus mentally and physically on your recovery.

topical dhea seems to help everyone because of the DHT conversion. I have beent rying 11 keto and androsterone to good results altely. Some people swear by pregnenlone, but for me it gives me strange brain fog.

 

[TubZy]

I too have post finasteride syndrome, with all of the severe symptoms.

Overall, I think the ebst prescription is time+ ray peat dieting/light+ low frequency resistance training+ plenty of sleep and rest

Minimizing stressful factors in your lfie is very important, so that you can focus mentally and physically on your recovery.

topical dhea seems to help everyone because of the DHT conversion. I have beent rying 11 keto and androsterone to good results altely. Some people swear by pregnenlone, but for me it gives me strange brain fog.

Funny you say that about preg, I get the same thing when I was supplementing it orally at 20-50mg per day. I think what is happening is my cholesterol is getting backed up from preg (or another neurosteroid not converting fast enough or the right steroids/hormones). Because when I added Vitamin A in at 30,000iu I definitely noticed something in terms of libido and just overall better feeling. I'm debating on going even higher with the vitamin A as I read that is a cofactor for cholesterol-->preg and all the other neurosteroids.

Over the past 6 months I made some of the best recoveries from a prohormone product called R-Andro which is basically androsterone and also pine pollen powder in high amounts daily. The R-andro is what got me interested in trying haidut's product as they both seem to contain the same ingredient but hairdut's is topical.

If you haven't tried this already, try getting your cholesterol up way higher and add in higher doses of vit A along with E, D3 and K2. I feel way better eating a ton of saturated fats and fruit compared to when I was on keto.

As far as the niacinimide goes, the 3 gram dose daily has gave me so weird effects in terms of like chills, fatigue, brain fog and my libido is definitely up, but I started the vit A, K2, D3 and niacinimide all at the same time so it's hard to pinpoint what is actually helping probably they are since they are all anti-estrogenic.

Does my thyroid look ok?

 

[sladerunner69]

Funny you say that about preg, I get the same thing when I was supplementing it orally at 20-50mg per day. I think what is happening is my cholesterol is getting backed up from preg (or another neurosteroid not converting fast enough or the right steroids/hormones). Because when I added Vitamin A in at 30,000iu I definitely noticed something in terms of libido and just overall better feeling. I'm debating on going even higher with the vitamin A as I read that is a cofactor for cholesterol-->preg and all the other neurosteroids.

Over the past 6 months I made some of the best recoveries from a prohormone product called R-Andro which is basically androsterone and also pine pollen powder in high amounts daily. The R-andro is what got me interested in trying haidut's product as they both seem to contain the same ingredient but hairdut's is topical.

If you haven't tried this already, try getting your cholesterol up way higher and add in higher doses of vit A along with E, D3 and K2. I feel way better eating a ton of saturated fats and fruit compared to when I was on keto.

As far as the niacinimide goes, the 3 gram dose daily has gave me so weird effects in terms of like chills, fatigue, brain fog and my libido is definitely up, but I started the vit A, K2, D3 and niacinimide all at the same time so it's hard to pinpoint what is actually helping probably they are since they are all anti-estrogenic.

Does my thyroid look ok?

I actually have considerred your "cholesterol back-up" theory myself. After my disastrous crash, for the first couple of years this actually had me substantially worried that I would have cardiovascular disease or arterial blockage or something along that vein (no pun intended). A general stuffiness in my chest, accompanied by mild aching, and what seemed like poor circulation were the symptoms. After learning more about how arterial build up is actually caused by unsaturated fats, I became less worried and realized my poor vascular function was do to lower 5-AR function. 5-ar is responsible for a variety of hormones, not just DHT, although that is a positively vital one for males.

Lately I have been primarily concering myself with the effects of DHEA and preg. DHEA is smaller doses does seem to help. However it is clearly addictive/suppressive because after using it for even a day, I wake up the next mroning feeling zonked and a little out of balance. When I use DHEA for a month or so, at maybe 10-20 grams a day, I felt real weird when I stopped. I stayed off of it for a couple weeks and I am not certain if things came back to homeostasis mentally, where they should be that far along in mf post finasteride recovery, or if I was still feeling depersonalized from the DHEA. I really don't know, because for the past 2 days I have not used any pansterone and I am remarkably tired, lackluster, and find it difficult for anything to mentally stimulate. So this morning I applied 2 drops of pansterone because I know I need some extra energy for today, and while it is clear I have more energy, I also have more brain fog-like a broad empty space in the front of my brain. I suppose I want the energy, the metabolic boost of preg, without the weird mental side effects.

I am going to jsut have to keep experimenting, but if I can't figure out how to get my mind somewhat mroe comfortable and reliable, than I believe I am going to drop all of my supps save for some of the fat soluble vitamins, and focus on eating good food and resting a lot.

 

[Orion]

@sladerunner69 how is your sleep, are you able to sleep 8hrs deep, go long hours between eating with no crashing? Would working on liver glycogen storage help with respect to getting energy levels and storage way up, so you can experiment with andro/11-keto/pansterone.

I try using them and since I am running on stress hormones and cant sleep through the night, those three supps have knock me down hard, draining liver stores and causing insomnia. I think I am 5-ar depressed from 2 rounds of accutane...

Last few days I have been following @Mittir thoughts on experimenting with more sugar, milk, coconut oil, apple juice, this quickly bumped up energy, well feeling and sleep is improving.

 

[TubZy]

I actually have considerred your "cholesterol back-up" theory myself. After my disastrous crash, for the first couple of years this actually had me substantially worried that I would have cardiovascular disease or arterial blockage or something along that vein (no pun intended). A general stuffiness in my chest, accompanied by mild aching, and what seemed like poor circulation were the symptoms. After learning more about how arterial build up is actually caused by unsaturated fats, I became less worried and realized my poor vascular function was do to lower 5-AR function. 5-ar is responsible for a variety of hormones, not just DHT, although that is a positively vital one for males.

Lately I have been primarily concering myself with the effects of DHEA and preg. DHEA is smaller doses does seem to help. However it is clearly addictive/suppressive because after using it for even a day, I wake up the next mroning feeling zonked and a little out of balance. When I use DHEA for a month or so, at maybe 10-20 grams a day, I felt real weird when I stopped. I stayed off of it for a couple weeks and I am not certain if things came back to homeostasis mentally, where they should be that far along in mf post finasteride recovery, or if I was still feeling depersonalized from the DHEA. I really don't know, because for the past 2 days I have not used any pansterone and I am remarkably tired, lackluster, and find it difficult for anything to mentally stimulate. So this morning I applied 2 drops of pansterone because I know I need some extra energy for today, and while it is clear I have more energy, I also have more brain fog-like a broad empty space in the front of my brain. I suppose I want the energy, the metabolic boost of preg, without the weird mental side effects.

I am going to jsut have to keep experimenting, but if I can't figure out how to get my mind somewhat mroe comfortable and reliable, than I believe I am going to drop all of my supps save for some of the fat soluble vitamins, and focus on eating good food and resting a lot.

Yeah dude, I hear ya. I was so bad two years ago I could barely get out of bed and had severe depression and anxiety, but as time went on I would slowly improve. I also believe Haidut posted a study showing when DHT levels are higher in the body they actually increase 5 alpha reductase levels in the body so even though you do feel suppressed you could be increasing your 5 alpha reductase enzyme (which could be good). I have literally tried everything dude masteron, proviron, tribulus, tongkat, testosterone etc. The only things that actually made a difference was the R-andro (androsterone) and heavy does of pine pollen daily.

So far, since starting the A/D3/K2/E and niacinimide (anti estrogen/increase dht signaling), gelatin before bed and eating a ***t ton of saturated fatty foods (to increase cholesterol) and fruit I feel way way better compared to any diet. If you have some extra money try replicate my regimen so I can compared it someone else. Everyone mentions to go on paleo/keto diet on the other forums so I also stuck with that and always avoided "sugar" which was a big mistake after bringing back in fruit, ice cream and a lot of saturated fats from butter/coconut oil my body temp increased and feel way better. When I get my stuff my ideal labs I'll let you know how I feel. Also, maybe adding in taurine could help too with the cholesterol/fat synthesis .

 

[TubZy]

@sladerunner69 how is your sleep, are you able to sleep 8hrs deep, go long hours between eating with no crashing? Would working on liver glycogen storage help with respect to getting energy levels and storage way up, so you can experiment with andro/11-keto/pansterone.

I try using them and since I am running on stress hormones and cant sleep through the night, those three supps have knock me down hard, draining liver stores and causing insomnia. I think I am 5-ar depressed from 2 rounds of accutane...

Last few days I have been following @Mittir thoughts on experimenting with more sugar, milk, coconut oil, apple juice, this quickly bumped up energy, well feeling and sleep is improving.

I didn't sleep for two years straight when first quitting and the only thing that helped and fixed the issue was glycine/gelatin before bed (large amounts).

Try 6 grams of pure glycine powder before bed, everyone (pfs suffers) I suggested it too got positive results from it.

I suspect three reasons why it helps:

-increases GABA
-increases 5 AR
-anti stress/cortisol

All which finasteride negatively affects. If you want to increase it further you add 500-1000mg of niacinmide with it before bed too.

 

[milk_lover]

You might look at what people said about UNIQUE E. It's basically useless.

 

[TubZy]

You might look at what people said about UNIQUE E. It's basically useless.

What thread? The thread I saw a lot of ppl said it was a good option: Vitamin E Supplements

EDIT: oh I see you may be referring to this one Good Quality Vitamin E

Well I guess next order will be Haidut's vit E.

 

[TubZy]

I wanted to update that with the fat soluble vitamins I have been taking along with the niacinimide I feel like I'm on 50-75mg of proviron. My libido and mood is up definitely and I'm very dry and tight (anti E effects). My vascularity also increased and my appetite is up for sure.

note: I mentioned earlier that the niacinimide made me feel "weird" well I found out it was making me go hypo LOL and a cup of orange juice and a bunch of fruit, ice cream resolves it now.

Also pure encap also includes 50mg of alpha lipoic acid in their niacinimide which I didn't know about.

 

[milk_lover]

I wanted to update that with the fat soluble vitamins I have been taking along with the niacinimide I feel like I'm on 50-75mg of proviron. My libido and mood is up definitely and I'm very dry and tight (anti E effects). My vascularity also increased and my appetite is up for sure.

note: I mentioned earlier that the niacinimide made me feel "weird" well I found out it was making me go hypo LOL and a cup of orange juice and a bunch of fruit, ice cream resolves it now.

Also pure encap also includes 50mg of alpha lipoic acid in their niacinimide which I didn't know about.

Yeah niacinamide needs a lot of sugar to be effective as it increases metabolism and makes you a sugar burner as apposed to a fat burner.
Don't you get puffy face from UNIQUE E? I get that anytime I interact with soya. And it makes me weak like mushy muscles.
Vitamin D, K2, and A work synergically and increases my libido too. I think of D as the coach, it needs good players to win matches. In this case, K2 delivers goals and A calms down the coach (D) in stressful situations so D can think rationally and puts the best formation for his team. Without A, sometimes D makes me irritable if any of this makes sense. Magnesium is the assistant of goals and calcium is the ball :)

I think there are posts that say vitamin D, A, and niacinamide help with androgen enzymes activities or some sort. Glycine is another substance that could help in raising androgens.

I like vitamin E alone or with vitamin A. It's better consumed away from vitamin K2 to ensure they are not canceling each other's effects.

 

[Peater Piper]

I feel way better eating a ton of saturated fats and fruit compared to when I was on keto.

Were you not already eating a ton of saturated fat while on keto, or is it the addition of the fruit that's helping?

 

[TubZy]

Yeah niacinamide needs a lot of sugar to be effective as it increases metabolism and makes you a sugar burner as apposed to a fat burner.
Don't you get puffy face from UNIQUE E? I get that anytime I interact with soya. And it makes me weak like mushy muscles.
Vitamin D, K2, and A work synergically and increases my libido too. I think of D as the coach, it needs good players to win matches. In this case, K2 delivers goals and A calms down the coach (D) in stressful situations so D can think rationally and puts the best formation for his team. Without A, sometimes D makes me irritable if any of this makes sense. Magnesium is the assistant of goals and calcium is the ball :)

I think there are posts that say vitamin D, A, and niacinamide help with androgen enzymes activities or some sort. Glycine is another substance that could help in raising androgens.

I like vitamin E alone or with vitamin A. It's better consumed away from vitamin K2 to ensure they are not canceling each other's effects.

Thanks man for the detailed explanation

Hard to say regarding the unique E but either way I ordered Haidut's vitamin E supplement so I will feel way more comfortable using it lol.

I also take gelatin/glycine before bed- works wonders. I take my D, K2 and A in the morning and E at dinner with sometimes a little more A.

Also coffe with breakfast and pre-workout.

 

[TubZy]

Were you not already eating a ton of saturated fat while on keto, or is it the addition of the fruit that's helping?

During keto I was eating signicnatly less saturated fats and way more PUFA like olive oil. I am actually eating a ***t ton of saturated fat now compare to keto. My main fat sources are coconut oil, butter and ice cream. I completely cut out olive oil. fruits and OJ I think are helping a lot though. I feel way more energy and higher body temp. My waist is tighter that it was compared to on keto which is crazy (never thought eating sugar would do that) with the diet I'm doing (peating).

I also try and keep up with the coffee and K2 to keep the fat flushed out.

 

[tara]

Here are my latest bloods from a week ago

I'm not too strong on reading most of the lab results, but the TSH looks highish, CO2 might be a bit lower than optimal,
Ccholesterol is marked high, but it's not very high and possibly not a bad thing to have it up there if you are needing to create more downstream steroid hormones.
Have you had a go at monitoring body temps for more metabolism data?

Breakfast (smoothie):

Looks maybe lowish in carbohydrates, esp with three eggs and coffee and high dose niacinamide?

If you are looking for the gut cleaning benefits Peat recommends raw carrot for, you'd probably get more of that effect by having the carrot separate from your meals, and either grating it a bit more coarsely rather than blending it (so the fibres don't get chopped so small) (optionally eating it with a little vinegar or coconut/olive oil may make it a little more effective.
Peat usually favours cooking leaves, and esp drinking the cooking water, rather than eating raw - more digestible, still get the minerals.

Lunch

Peat has recommended pure white salts over coloured ones - many of us get more than enough iron as it is.

While there does seem to be some benefit from having some saturated fat with meals (and minimising PUFA), I've not seen Peat suggest eating 'a ton' of butter or coconut oil. For many of us, it seems good to make carbohydrates at least as much the energy staple.
For an active young man, I'm wondering if you could use more carbs - maybe more sugars in the form of fruit, juice etc?

 

[Peater Piper]

During keto I was eating signicnatly less saturated fats and way more PUFA like olive oil. I am actually eating a ***t ton of saturated fat now compare to keto. My main fat sources are coconut oil, butter and ice cream. I completely cut out olive oil. fruits and OJ I think are helping a lot though. I feel way more energy and higher body temp. My waist is tighter that it was compared to on keto which is crazy (never thought eating sugar would do that) with the diet I'm doing (peating).

I also try and keep up with the coffee and K2 to keep the fat flushed out.

I wonder if your keto experience may have been better if you'd focused on saturated fat, but it seems what you're doing now is working for you. I know there's at least a couple other members here that get the bulk of their calories from saturated fat with good results.

 

[mayweatherking]

Funny you say that about preg, I get the same thing when I was supplementing it orally at 20-50mg per day. I think what is happening is my cholesterol is getting backed up from preg (or another neurosteroid not converting fast enough or the right steroids/hormones). Because when I added Vitamin A in at 30,000iu I definitely noticed something in terms of libido and just overall better feeling. I'm debating on going even higher with the vitamin A as I read that is a cofactor for cholesterol-->preg and all the other neurosteroids.

Over the past 6 months I made some of the best recoveries from a prohormone product called R-Andro which is basically androsterone and also pine pollen powder in high amounts daily. The R-andro is what got me interested in trying haidut's product as they both seem to contain the same ingredient but hairdut's is topical.

If you haven't tried this already, try getting your cholesterol up way higher and add in higher doses of vit A along with E, D3 and K2. I feel way better eating a ton of saturated fats and fruit compared to when I was on keto.

As far as the niacinimide goes, the 3 gram dose daily has gave me so weird effects in terms of like chills, fatigue, brain fog and my libido is definitely up, but I started the vit A, K2, D3 and niacinimide all at the same time so it's hard to pinpoint what is actually helping probably they are since they are all anti-estrogenic.

Does my thyroid look ok?

PFS crew checking in. I also get the exact same thing from preg. It makes me unbelievably depressed actually and I feel next to no emotion from it. I thought op's cholesterol was pretty good at 214, pretty interesting though.

My thought on PFS now is it is some kind of fungal overload type thing that is blocking the metabolism. The first time I took an anti fungal, flucanazole, I noticed an immediate spike in my hunger right away. I also felt my emotions and feelings come back. I also noticed very interestingly my hunger came back STRONG. However, I am now on my 3rd round of it and it is not as effective as it initially was, albiet a lot of fungus did clear from my body, I still do have some fungal spots near my genitals that have not left yet though which keeps me hopeful that it is a fungal issue that is not yet resolved.. that's what I'm doing at least for now.

It seems to me the most important part of PFS is fixing the digestion.. whenever I've had times where I had a perfect bowel movement or I emptied my bowels, I really felt way better and sometimes had the libido spikes, however, if I have any trouble going to the restroom, I will get the PFS feelings back.

It is really some kind of digestive problem, I don't know the root cause though. I have been peating for over a year trying to fix the problem so have a lot of trial and error on a lot of stuff, I'd say digestion is most important for when I've found myself feeling more normal, but really I don't know at this point.

I really wonder sometimes what the consequences of are increasing your Testosterone from taking a 5ar inhibitor... I really think it somehow left us in an energy deficit because you are creating too much testosterone, requiring more energy, if you have hair loss, you are probably in an energy scarce state to begin with, then you go and take a bunch of testosterone boosting pills which finasteride basically is at the end of the day, really what is going to happen to you...

 

[TubZy]

I'm not too strong on reading most of the lab results, but the TSH looks highish, CO2 might be a bit lower than optimal,
Ccholesterol is marked high, but it's not very high and possibly not a bad thing to have it up there if you are needing to create more downstream steroid hormones.
Have you had a go at monitoring body temps for more metabolism data?


Looks maybe lowish in carbohydrates, esp with three eggs and coffee and high dose niacinamide?

If you are looking for the gut cleaning benefits Peat recommends raw carrot for, you'd probably get more of that effect by having the carrot separate from your meals, and either grating it a bit more coarsely rather than blending it (so the fibres don't get chopped so small) (optionally eating it with a little vinegar or coconut/olive oil may make it a little more effective.
Peat usually favours cooking leaves, and esp drinking the cooking water, rather than eating raw - more digestible, still get the minerals.


Peat has recommended pure white salts over coloured ones - many of us get more than enough iron as it is.

While there does seem to be some benefit from having some saturated fat with meals (and minimising PUFA), I've not seen Peat suggest eating 'a ton' of butter or coconut oil. For many of us, it seems good to make carbohydrates at least as much the energy staple.
For an active young man, I'm wondering if you could use more carbs - maybe more sugars in the form of fruit, juice etc?

Thank you for that. I prefer to keep my cholesterol on the higher side I feel way better that way.

I will take your advice about the carbs too. I actually don't have a choice now that my appetite is through the roof since starting this full supplement regimen.

Which salt do you use?

I wonder if your keto experience may have been better if you'd focused on saturated fat, but it seems what you're doing now is working for you. I know there's at least a couple other members here that get the bulk of their calories from saturated fat with good results.

Could be. Although I wouldn't say my saturated fat intake was low but maybe could have been replaced with all the PUFA I was taking in.

PFS crew checking in. I also get the exact same thing from preg. It makes me unbelievably depressed actually and I feel next to no emotion from it. I thought op's cholesterol was pretty good at 214, pretty interesting though.

My thought on PFS now is it is some kind of fungal overload type thing that is blocking the metabolism. The first time I took an anti fungal, flucanazole, I noticed an immediate spike in my hunger right away. I also felt my emotions and feelings come back. I also noticed very interestingly my hunger came back STRONG. However, I am now on my 3rd round of it and it is not as effective as it initially was, albiet a lot of fungus did clear from my body, I still do have some fungal spots near my genitals that have not left yet though which keeps me hopeful that it is a fungal issue that is not yet resolved.. that's what I'm doing at least for now.

It seems to me the most important part of PFS is fixing the digestion.. whenever I've had times where I had a perfect bowel movement or I emptied my bowels, I really felt way better and sometimes had the libido spikes, however, if I have any trouble going to the restroom, I will get the PFS feelings back.

It is really some kind of digestive problem, I don't know the root cause though. I have been peating for over a year trying to fix the problem so have a lot of trial and error on a lot of stuff, I'd say digestion is most important for when I've found myself feeling more normal, but really I don't know at this point.

I really wonder sometimes what the consequences of are increasing your Testosterone from taking a 5ar inhibitor... I really think it somehow left us in an energy deficit because you are creating too much testosterone, requiring more energy, if you have hair loss, you are probably in an energy scarce state to begin with, then you go and take a bunch of testosterone boosting pills which finasteride basically is at the end of the day, really what is going to happen to you...

Funny you mention the gut issue. Antibiotics actually made me feel better too (minocycline and tinidazole) but the results didn't stick and left me with a bad gut (that has healed since then). I also have fluco too but didn't really notice anything from it. I believe ray mentioned that antibiotic are anti stress. I think o read they lower cortisol and raise progesterone? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe the positive effect could be from that mechanism rather than the anti bacterial mechanism in the gut.

Honestly if you think it's a gut issue get on niacinimide at the dosage I'm using. I'm sure you saw the study about how potent of an anti fungal it is. My digestion is also better since starting the regimen I mentioned above too.

About the preg I think we feel worse is because it's most likely converting to cortisol and estrogen instead of allopreg and other neurosteroids.
That is also maybe why I feel better on high doses of vitamin A and raising KY cholesterol way higher.
I have not tried haiduts pansterone yet. It will be here tomm along with the androsterone and 11 keto. I'm going to give it a shot and combine the pasterone with the androsterone to get the syngerstic effect haidut mentioned. I'm curious to see how I will feel with that stack.

One supplement that really helped me was R andro which I took back in July. It's basically a hyped version of androsterone. Put me above baseline I do want use it again but trying to avoid anything suppressive for a while since I have been making significant progress naturally lately. I did a log a while back

Prohormone cycle

I also can say my body temp is up I'm sweating way more (good thing). Waist is super tight despite all the caloric dense food I have pouding.

 

[sladerunner69]

As a fellow pfs sufferer for over 5 years Im really enjoying this thread. It's so great when I see other pfs guys, it reminds me of my purpose and my issues, which I oft want to forget and ignore, but I ahve eyt to become totally free of the emotional suppression, the tiredness, the lack of libido. I am close though. I need to focus on reinstating a pure peat diet of orange juice, quality dairy, oysters and so forth.

I have been doing the androsterone and it makes a ton of difference, especially in the libido department. I have been playing with pansterone but I am starting to suspect that pregnenelone is more trouble than its worth. For that reason, with pansterone my mind and penis become numb, although I am aware of some good effects tha tI ahve onserved on my skin and with memory and energy.

Did you get a chance to use the pansterone? I am too curious to hear your trial.

thanks for the ehads up on saturated fat, I have noticed pastured eggs, oysters before bed has a nice little boost to my androgenecity the next morning.

In general though I am begining to cut back o my supplements because I am suspecting that all of these confounding effects leave my brain and mind a little jumbled. I think I need a good clean reset from any/all supplements for at least a couple weeks, except for low dose fat solubles and 5-ar steroids (duh cant miss those!!!)

 

[mayweatherking]

Honestly this pfs stuff is so unbelievably demoralizing its unreal. My hair loss is so bad and on top of that I have next to no libido.and.can't go.to the stupid bathroom normally. If you can solve it... you get the Nobel prize. I.sometimes get stuff better, but there's always a negative that happens as well. Always. I dk if I'm doing something wrong or something is wrong with me. I think its just what finasteride did. After one year and nearly losing all my hair in the process.. I'm myself almost out of options.