Post Finasteride Sydrome - Neuropathic Pain

[thorus2000]

Hi guys,
I took finasteride from 2007 to 2012. After I had stopped taking the drug, anxiety disorders in the form of claustophobia appeared after about 6 months.
Over the years more and more sleep disorders developed. In 2017 I could not sleep at all.
Around 2017 more and more pain developed while sitting. The skin burns below the bottom the longer I sit and the harder the seat is. When I stand up, the pain stops. I suspect that this neuropathic pain also comes from PFS.
Regarding sleep disorders, Gabapentin and Zopiclone have been shown to be very helpful. At the moment I am trying to balance the zopiclone which I am taking for about 2 years. Trazodone is a great help.
I fight the anxiety disorders with the fact that I always have Tavor with me and can use in an emergency.
Combating the pain described above is very difficult. At the moment I am taking Tramadol. The success is rather modest.

On my last check, you could see the following

- neurotransmitters are down
- DHEA very deep
- testosterone ok, but most of it is in bound form.
- progesterone and estradiol ok
- thyroid gland so far ok according to doctor
- minerals like Mg, Zn or iron ok
- vitamins also ok
- intestinal flora inconspicuous

I use currently the following NEM's

• Life Extension Mix
  
• probiotic product
  
• creatine
  
• whey
  
• Bacopa
  
• magnesium
  
• Q10
• Omega 3

Has anyone an idea to solve this terrible problem while sitting. I have an overbearing sedentary activity and days with long sessions are just terrible.
Looking forward to hear from you guys to give me some idea.



Thorus

 

[bk_]

You’ve come to the ray peat forum! Although I don’t have any specific advice about the pain allow me give you general health advice that over the long term will help you heal and hopefully clear up the pain (I also have PFS).

Try dropping the omega 3 as it’s a PUFA, you’re not doing yourself any favours (The Great Fish Oil Experiment). Switch to saturated fats instead like refined coconut oil, it’s done wonders for me.

Also playing with probiotics is playing with fire (most probiotics contain strains that produce excess lactic acid and histamine). Please see my posts on what probiotics did to me. Ray Peat is also against them. Did you at least get your gut flora tested through a stool test to know whats going on with gut flora? Better options is to take foods or supplements that control gut pathogens.

Try dropping whey it has too much tryptophan which produces seratonin and can lead to estrogen dominance (Tryptophan, serotonin, and aging ). Try gelatin instead (Gelatin, stress, longevity).

Also please check your pulse and temperatures and watch for symptoms of hypothyroidism like slow reflexes or cold hands and feet, the TSH tests aren’t entirely reliable and thyroid issues is very common for PFS (Thyroid: Therapies, Confusion, and Fraud., Preventing and treating cancer with progesterone.)

Get lots of sunlight or do red light therapy (use a 660nm lamp or 250w incadescent bulb) to improve cell metabolism and lower inflammation (Aging Eyes, Infant Eyes, and Excitable Tissues).

If all goes well above, for anxiety and neurotransmitters you can try a little pregnenolone. Make sure your thyroid is in tip top shape first though (Progesterone Pregnenolone & DHEA - Three Youth-Associated Hormones).

 

[lampofred]

Everything that will increase GABAergic activity and restore steroidogenesis should be helpful... PFS seems like a failure of the inhibitory processes and basically everything Dr. Peat suggests is aimed at restoring inhibition. I would highly recommending reading through some of his articles on raypeat.com, just searching for titles that seem interesting and relevant to your situation.

High protein, high carb, low PUFA, high sat fat diet focused on milk, gelatin, fruit, butter, salt, potatoes, beef, similar highly nourishing wholesome foods, as well as aspirin, niacinamide, coffee, gelatin, zinc, citamin e, vitamin k, vitamin d, red light, CO2 are a bunch of things that will work synergistically.

The whey supplement and Omega 3 are probably not good in the long run as the poster above me mentioned.

 

[broozer]

hey man, i was also hit by finasteride. but i learned some things and could improve fitness and activity level - still sleep is terrible
@bk_ is spot on with his advises on lifestyle and nutrition. get sunlight! how much d3 u take? i felt benefits only from 3000IU and above. coconut oil is great too - works pro thyroid. but keep in mind not to take too much as it is a 5aR inhibitor. go for selenium by food. i am benefitting from an 16/8 intermittent fasting protocol, it lowers inflammation. im not 100% sure but a paleo approach with high carbs was difficult to maintain but gave me a good sense of wellbeing.
when your anxios and sleep is an issue, maybe dont take any coffeine. it increases anxiety in succeptible persons. i take ashagandha for sleep it works a bit. taurine is an option to promote deep sleep. eat carrots ,garlic and onions - they all are very androgenic!
how much zopiclone do you take (im on 3,75 now,tapered from 7,5)? is the gabapenine improving deep sleep? does it have sides? might try this too.

 

[thorus2000]

Hi guys,

thanks for your advice. PFS is a big shithole and it’s good to see that you are not alone.

Regarding Omega 3 I take only a small amount of Krill oel. I assume there is no high risk but I will check the links provided.

Interesting and new is the information about probiotics. Bk_ do you have examples for NEM’s which control gut pathogens?

Since several months I have noticed cold hands and feet. According to my doctor the thyroid levels are ok. I will check again with another doctor.

My sleeping problems started about 4 years ago. Over two years it got worse and worse (from 2015) and finally 2017 it was not possible to sleep without sleeping pills. In that time I needed up to 2 pills of Zopiclone to have 4 to 6 hours sleep. After several months using Zopi I gradually lost my emotions and I had a depressive period. With Gabapentin I got back my life. Within week I could reduce Zopi from about 15 mg to 3,75 mg. Currently I need 2,5 mg plus 900 to 1200 mg Gabapentin. Side effects of Gabapentin are minor. In the morning you can feel a certain tiredness which gets lost in the course of the morning. When I’m reducing Zopi I took additionally a few days small amounts of Trazodon (12 mg). After that I wait for 2 to 3 to start the next reduction.

 

[bk_]

Hi guys,

thanks for your advice. PFS is a big shithole and it’s good to see that you are not alone.

Regarding Omega 3 I take only a small amount of Krill oel. I assume there is no high risk but I will check the links provided.

Interesting and new is the information about probiotics. Bk_ do you have examples for NEM’s which control gut pathogens?

Since several months I have noticed cold hands and feet. According to my doctor the thyroid levels are ok. I will check again with another doctor.

My sleeping problems started about 4 years ago. Over two years it got worse and worse (from 2015) and finally 2017 it was not possible to sleep without sleeping pills. In that time I needed up to 2 pills of Zopiclone to have 4 to 6 hours sleep. After several months using Zopi I gradually lost my emotions and I had a depressive period. With Gabapentin I got back my life. Within week I could reduce Zopi from about 15 mg to 3,75 mg. Currently I need 2,5 mg plus 900 to 1200 mg Gabapentin. Side effects of Gabapentin are minor. In the morning you can feel a certain tiredness which gets lost in the course of the morning. When I’m reducing Zopi I took additionally a few days small amounts of Trazodon (12 mg). After that I wait for 2 to 3 to start the next reduction.

Whats NEM’s? For controlling gut pathogens Ray Peat recommends carrot salad and a (teaspoon or tablespoon?) of refined coconut oil per meal. In my experience you should get a comprehensive stool test (that also tests what herbs and antibiotics are effective against your own pathogens) otherwise your just wasting time and money on pointless supplements.

Cold hands and feet are a symptom of hypothryoidism, check your body temperature with a thermometer and heart rate upon waking in the morning and throughtout the day as well as reflexes. Please read the links, dont just rely on doctors or even forum members you are utlimately in charge of your own health, you have the power, read the links.

Sleep that is slowly deteriorating are a sign that youre not doing something right. Keep a daily journal of your habits and diet to find patterns. Sounds like your cycling into a stressed state, try swapping the whey for gelatin, sunlight/red light therapy, try quitting supplements youve taken long term some of them cause insomnia, seriously look further into your thyroid, make sure you get adequate simple carbs throught the day and before bed, lots of salt in your diet to curb adrenaline and cortisol. Give niacinimide (not “niacin”!) a try but take it with a meal with adequate simple carbs because it lowers blood sugar.

 

[broozer]

where is the link between salt and andrenalinecortisol and /salt?

 

[bk_]

where is the link between salt and andrenalinecortisol and /salt?

Salt, energy, metabolic rate, and longevity

 

[sladerunner69]

Hi guys,

thanks for your advice. PFS is a big shithole and it’s good to see that you are not alone.

Regarding Omega 3 I take only a small amount of Krill oel. I assume there is no high risk but I will check the links provided.

Interesting and new is the information about probiotics. Bk_ do you have examples for NEM’s which control gut pathogens?

Since several months I have noticed cold hands and feet. According to my doctor the thyroid levels are ok. I will check again with another doctor.

My sleeping problems started about 4 years ago. Over two years it got worse and worse (from 2015) and finally 2017 it was not possible to sleep without sleeping pills. In that time I needed up to 2 pills of Zopiclone to have 4 to 6 hours sleep. After several months using Zopi I gradually lost my emotions and I had a depressive period. With Gabapentin I got back my life. Within week I could reduce Zopi from about 15 mg to 3,75 mg. Currently I need 2,5 mg plus 900 to 1200 mg Gabapentin. Side effects of Gabapentin are minor. In the morning you can feel a certain tiredness which gets lost in the course of the morning. When I’m reducing Zopi I took additionally a few days small amounts of Trazodon (12 mg). After that I wait for 2 to 3 to start the next reduction.

The vast majority of doctors have not been well educated on thyroid since the 1950's. Instead, I would check your pulse and temperature after breakfast. I try to keep my pulse at least 80bpm, and like to make sure my underarms are very warm. These are generally very good indicators of thyroid function, but some people will be running on tons of adrenaline and also have a high pulse rate and feel warm, so it is important to do these tests after having a meal with a lot of carbohydrate and salt.

You’ve come to the ray peat forum! Although I don’t have any specific advice about the pain allow me give you general health advice that over the long term will help you heal and hopefully clear up the pain (I also have PFS).

Try dropping the omega 3 as it’s a PUFA, you’re not doing yourself any favours (The Great Fish Oil Experiment). Switch to saturated fats instead like refined coconut oil, it’s done wonders for me.

Also playing with probiotics is playing with fire (most probiotics contain strains that produce excess lactic acid and histamine). Please see my posts on what probiotics did to me. Ray Peat is also against them. Did you at least get your gut flora tested through a stool test to know whats going on with gut flora? Better options is to take foods or supplements that control gut pathogens.

Try dropping whey it has too much tryptophan which produces seratonin and can lead to estrogen dominance (Tryptophan, serotonin, and aging ). Try gelatin instead (Gelatin, stress, longevity).

Also please check your pulse and temperatures and watch for symptoms of hypothyroidism like slow reflexes or cold hands and feet, the TSH tests aren’t entirely reliable and thyroid issues is very common for PFS (Thyroid: Therapies, Confusion, and Fraud., Preventing and treating cancer with progesterone.)

Get lots of sunlight or do red light therapy (use a 660nm lamp or 250w incadescent bulb) to improve cell metabolism and lower inflammation (Aging Eyes, Infant Eyes, and Excitable Tissues).

If all goes well above, for anxiety and neurotransmitters you can try a little pregnenolone. Make sure your thyroid is in tip top shape first though (Progesterone Pregnenolone & DHEA - Three Youth-Associated Hormones).

I like this advice. I too have suffered through PFS since 2011, and after trying paleo and raw diets for a few years with limited success, I found peat and did pretty much this same approach which really got me to a comfortable spot within a few months time. I had to be careful adding in caffeine at first, because it would make me crash and sometimes cause panic attacks. After a few years of getting the pufa out of my tissues and correcting my gut and liver health, I can now consume copious amounts of coffee with little issue. I drank a lot of organic low fat milk( preferably grassfed) and fresh squeezed orange juice (non-pasturized is best) as well as fruits and well cooked potatoes. I cooked only with grass fed butter and refined coconut oil. I try to eat liver once a weak, sometimes I make pate. I try to eat eggs every morning, and oysters once in a while. I may have some kind of meat each night, like sirloin steak or chicken breast. Sometimes now I will have sourdough toast or sandwiches with a little gut discomfort. I will usually have beers on the weekend, although I now notice that I can't have more than a few or I will become in pretty bad shape with gut discomfort, a headache, etc.

I take 500mg niacinamide daily to increase gaba, and 10mg b6 to lower prolactin (careful too much b6 can cause neuropathy-which you already have) I take 300mg magnesium three times a day in the carbonate form, mixed with juice (this eleveates anxiety perhaps more than anything Ive tried). If my pulse is too low or I feel cold, I will take a drop or two of tyronene (t3) on my skin or drink a cup of coffee. I will often mix gelatin into my coffee with sugar and milk, to get more protein and glycine. I try to have at least 100grams of protein daily, (I am 215 lb male), and also take glycine powder mixed into milk (helps with anxiety). Sometimes I take dhea/pregenenlone, which helps to increase libido and energy, (but can worsen anxiety at times).

Taking progesterone, gelatin, and magnesium are probably the best cures for anxiety, because they activate the GABA pathway. Progesterone also converts to allopregnenlone, which has been greatly reduced thanks to 5ar inhibition. One of the important features of allopregnenelone is that it is neuroprotective. It is also a potent anti-depressant. I have been interested in trying some, as it has just been legalized here in the US. Until I try to find some, it will just be progesterone. The problem I have with progesterone is that it can give me anti-androgenic sides, wherein I feel lazy and lack willpower. To balance this I take more dhea, which helps. Mostly now I have saved progesterone for the occasional evening where I really need something to relax.

I also take aspirin before bed, because I found that is it very helpful for feeling good and ready to sleep. The problem with aspirin is that I think it increases neuropathy to some extent, I have felt less aching and pains when I went off aspirin because it powerfully suppresses estrogen, which is mostly good but can cause joint/nerve pain.

 

[thorus2000]

Sladerunner69,
thanks for the detailed explanations.

Since I often have cold hands and feet, I will take care of my
thyroid gland.

Do you correct your gut and liver health through diet or also by taking supplements and/or plant/herb extracts?

About two years ago I tried progesteron (10 mg dermal) and DHEA (25 mg oral) without any effect regarding insomnia and anxiety. What dosage did you use?

I'm thinking about trying out Preg 50 mg to support my neurosteroid synthesis.

How much aspirin did you take? Don't you have any concerns about stomach bleeding?

Thorus2000

 

[thorus2000]

Hi,

can you guys explain the connection between PFS and dry or thin skin to me?
In the meantime I got very thin skin on my shins and forearms. You can see the veins very clearly.

regards Thorus2000

 

[broozer]

Hi,

can you guys explain the connection between PFS and dry or thin skin to me?
In the meantime I got very thin skin on my shins and forearms. You can see the veins very clearly.

regards Thorus2000

what is your %bodyfat? in some cases PFS alters the stressresponse and you end up having superhigh cortisols. this leads to a redistribution of bodyfat from the extremities to the abdominal region.

 

[Hans]

Hi,

can you guys explain the connection between PFS and dry or thin skin to me?
In the meantime I got very thin skin on my shins and forearms. You can see the veins very clearly.

regards Thorus2000

Estrogen and cortisol are involved in thin skin, whereas DHEA increases skin thickness and hydration.
IGF-1 is also involved in keeping the skin supple and "fatty".

 

[thorus2000]

Bodyfat about 10%(from December 18). I think nothing has changed.
A Cortisol test (daily profil from April 19) showed that I have rather too less cortisol. The doctor said it was borderline.
DHEA is rather low.

Some tips what I can do?

 

[brix]

Bodyfat about 10%(from December 18). I think nothing has changed.
A Cortisol test (daily profil from April 19) showed that I have rather too less cortisol. The doctor said it was borderline.
DHEA is rather low.

Some tips what I can do?

I think DHEA/Preg could help you.

 

[lampofred]

I think PFS completely turns off adrenal-driven GABA production. The neurosteroids that are low in PFS sufferers aren't the ones that are produced by good thyroid, they are the ones produced by the adrenals in times of stress. 5-ar derived neurosteroids are only needed as a protective reaction to high estrogen levels. In contrast, thyroid-driven neurosteroids aren't 5-ar derived, instead they are produced under the influence of GABA-B activity (that's probably why GHB and meditation give good results). So my guess is that eliminating the stress response via pregnenolone and fructose and supplementing thyroid so that you run purely off of thyroid-driven energy as opposed to adrenal-driven energy will cure PFS. In a way it's actually a blessing in disguise because once you cure PFS, you will be operating at a much higher level than before, since you will be relying on high energy thyroid metabolism as opposed to stress/estrogen adrenal metabolism.

 

[thorus2000]

Hi guys,

thanks for your comments. I think to look at adrenal-driven GABA production is a good idea. I notice when I take gaba enhancing substances (gabapentin, picamilon) that my mood rises and sleep gets better. Unfortunately, despite 6-7 hours of sleep, I never feel well rested in the morning. Maybe the effect of the sleeping cocktail or my energy level is low.
I supplement DHEA (25 mg) and Preg (50 mg) in the morning since a couple of month, but the effect is rather low.
I think Tyromix could be a good option? What do you think?

Thyroid hormones from April 19:
FT3 3,32 pg/ml (2,3 -4,2)
FT4 1,22 pg/dl (0,89-1,76)
TSH 2,24 (0,55 - 4,78)

The catecholamines adrenaline, norepinephrine and dopamine are also (very) low.



Thorus

 

[Cooper]

Hi guys,

thanks for your comments. I think to look at adrenal-driven GABA production is a good idea. I notice when I take gaba enhancing substances (gabapentin, picamilon) that my mood rises and sleep gets better. Unfortunately, despite 6-7 hours of sleep, I never feel well rested in the morning. Maybe the effect of the sleeping cocktail or my energy level is low.
I supplement DHEA (25 mg) and Preg (50 mg) in the morning since a couple of month, but the effect is rather low.
I think Tyromix could be a good option? What do you think?

Thyroid hormones from April 19:
FT3 3,32 pg/ml (2,3 -4,2)
FT4 1,22 pg/dl (0,89-1,76)
TSH 2,24 (0,55 - 4,78)

The catecholamines adrenaline, norepinephrine and dopamine are also (very) low.



Thorus

U still here? I had the same sciatica like pains on my butt when i was sitting on class..